Shepherd Smith on Torture and Being an American

[oldiebutgoodie]

you will readily promote the interests of this country's enemies if you consider it advantageous to your cause. 

I have been respectful toward you and everyone else on this website regardless of their political point of view. I enjoy healthy debate. I have looked for common ground with you in spite of any differences of opinion. I have shown you respect.

Your comment is an extreme personal attack and a clear violation of SM's TOS for use of this forum. You have imagined up some "cause" in your own mind that your wish-fulfillment fantasy demands that I believe in and you use that to accuse me of the crime of treason. I have no connection to your fantasies so leave me out of them. Making a false accusation of the worst sort of crime that any American citizen can commit ought to get you banned from this website.

Please address no further comment to me and I will not respond to you. I think that is best. I can see that you are not interested in respectful debate and perhaps you never really were.

One thing you will never do is to make me act like you so with that said, adios.

[oldiebutgoodie]

[Toler]

What are Democrats doing to keep America safe?" It charged that Mr. Obama's decision to close Guantanamo and end harsh interrogation techniques that some criticize as torture would put the United States at risk of another terror 9/11-type attack.


http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/04/democrats-dont-fund-obamas-bid-close-guantanamo/

Dems don't fund bid to close Guantanamo

[Toler]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2244037/posts

Dodd open to torture investigation.

[Slogger]

"If people in fact did something that was illegal, they should be pursued," Dodd said.

   That's funny.

Although it may be out of context . . . it's still funny!

[Toler]

"If people in fact did something that was illegal, they should be pursued," Dodd said.

   That's funny.

Although it may be out of context . . . it's still funny!

  can you say..."hypocrite" ...

[Slogger]

 

Yeah, and we can (both) spell it; see it; label it.

(Dodd foot says, "Please don't shoot me . . . again!"  )

[finngirl]

I understand perfectly your aversion to torture and other harsh methods, but no one is compelling you to participate. No one, either, is demanding that you participate in killings on the battlefield, which I suspect you also understandably find repulsive. Though these things be repulsive, they're absolutely essential to the protection and survival of the American people.

I am an American, and therefore a participant
to acts which are committed in my name

battlefield deaths were/are/will be unavoidable
and I am not uneducated re what is necessary
for my country's protection/survival

I ask you; if there were a nuclear device hidden in a U.S. city and you had in your custody an enemy combatant who might know the whereabouts of that device, what would you not do in order to prevent the ensuing holocaust, to prevent the horrific murder of hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens? Personally, there is absolutely nothing I wouldn't do in seeking to obtain information crucial to foiling such an attack. Waterboarding, actually, could well be among the least abusive techniques in my toolkit under those circumstances. Effectiveness would be my only criterion in evaluating any approach to interrogating the subject. Frankly, I'd run the terrorists live through woodchippers -- feet first -- if I thought it were the fastest, best way to the information.

don't insult my intelligence by wrapping yourself in my flag
and playing the nuclear card

realistically, the circumstance you describe
has not been the motivation for waterboarding ...
and if the use of a nuke had been thwarted via torture,
that fact would have been shouted from the rooftops:
aha, oh ho, see what we accomplished (in your name)!

you assert that you draw NO line:
rape is in your toolkit?
hetero/homo rape? rape w/ an object?
sexual torture?

you have absolutely no limits in mind?

the flavor of your political posts
telegraphs a desire to satisfy base appetites

My advice to those, such as yourself, who are too squeamish to confront the brutal realities of the world is to simply put it all out of your mind. Avoid thinking about it, much the same way as most people avoid thinking about slaughterhouses while enjoying a steak dinner. Leave the defense of the nation to the professionals who've volunteered for the task and thank God you're privileged to enjoy the protection and safety they provide.

what I need to avoid thinking about
is your purported intelligence background,
which ... if it produced your brutal outlook ...
is what makes me squeamish

in no way do you represent our best/brightest
and I will refrain from the courtesy of adding:
IMO

[Toler]

Source: Charges Unlikely for Lawyers Over Interrogation Memos
A person familiar with the inquiry, who spoke on condition of anonymity, says investigators recommended referring two of the three lawyers to state bar associations for possible disciplinary action. 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/05/justice-nears-end-interrogation-memo-probe/

[Toler]

Odd, that lawyers will be referred to bar associations? Why are they not to be given their day in court? They should be able to face their accusors in open court, rather than likely having lives/careers destroyed by state bar associations.

[nonesuche]

oldie, of course it isn't.

SteveinMD has been a long-time poster at SM and personally I find his posts insightful. Torture in theory and in the reality of the world we now live in, simply isn't an easy debate for anyone. I abhor torture theoretically but Steve has provided a great deal of thought-provoking information regarding our realistic posture in dealing with heinous terrorists that as you said, just want to kill us. I would take that one step further however, they want to maim and make us suffer heinously and in agony while they kill us.

When I think of the images of Daniel Pearl going to his death after torturous captivity, I do struggle to consider those types of terrorists as human, frankly I think sub-human may be more accurate. Some evil in this modern world the normal rules do not apply to. We also are no longer discussing the threats of standard or even high-tech warfare, but rather extreme masochists with no respect for human life in our form as US citizens.

I will also admit you lost me when you defended Valerie Plame.

Toler has also raised a most compelling caveat - how do we reconcile that some of our military are trained with torture practice to equip them with critical skills necessary to prepare them for what they may face in captivity? This is experiential training that many would state there is no substitute for.

I think this has been an important conversation on this thread and I do not feel anyone has insulted you, disagreed with you yes, but not insulted you. IMO

These are difficult issues and it requires a thick skin to peel the onion.

[nonesuche]

I went to bed thinking about this topic and I wanted to clarify that when we think of terrorists as purveyors of mass murder, I think it is equal to the holocaust to great degree. Was torture ever utilized with the Nazi war criminals? If so, by what countries?

My daughter saw this feed on AOL today and forwarded to me, for it's a bit unique in that now the terrorists (yes US and Canadian youth now joining up with Al Qaeda), is using rap to evangelize their message and recruit. The entire video is worth a look see.

http://news.aol.com/article/al-qaida-hip-hop-video/464007?icid=main|main|dl8|link6|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fal-qaida-hip-hop-video%2F464007

[nonesuche]

well I didn't even get the music genre correct, it's hip hop not rap.....

[Slogger]

finngirl . . .It's your flag, and his flag, and my flag.

What is your solution?  Beg for equal treatment of our legitimate, uniformed soldiers?  Serve tea at four?

We attempt to be civilized; but, there is a limit.  You would hamper and hogtie US.  What will you do to our Al Qaeda enemy that would dissuade them from actions far worse than we use?  Make them adhere to the Geneva Convention?  They didn't sign.

Tell us your solution, and prove it will succeed.

[Toler]

Nonesy, my late husband underwent airborn survival training in Washington State and the Phillipines. I never once heard him use the word 'torture', he said he was interrogated.
I think it's time to shelve the word..torture!!

[Toler]

On his second day in office, President Obama ordered the Pentagon to mothball Guantanamo within one year, purportedly to reclaim the "moral high ground." That earned applause from the anti-antiterror squadrons, yet it is now causing all kinds of practical and political problems in what used to be known as the war on terror.

 
APThis mess grew even more chaotic this week, when Democrats refused the Administration's $50 million budget request to transfer some of the remaining 241 Gitmo detainees to a prison likely to be somewhere in the U.S. and perhaps to a new one built with taxpayer dollars. "What do we do with the 50 to 100 -- probably in that ballpark -- who we cannot release and cannot try?" Defense Secretary Robert Gates recently asked Congress.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165410800493933.html

[Toler]

 Jessica Lynch's hospital bed was located near a window overlooking a soccer field near the grounds of the hospital. She had been forced to watch as some of her team members were tortured, beheaded and buried.


http://frontpagemagazine.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34730

THAT"S torture.

[finngirl]

chemically enhanced interrogation

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-babbin031703.asp

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/07/60II/main548221.shtml

[nonesuche]

Jessica Lynch's hospital bed was located near a window overlooking a soccer field near the grounds of the hospital. She had been forced to watch as some of her team members were tortured, beheaded and buried.


http://frontpagemagazine.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=34730

THAT"S torture.

I agree Toler.

[nonesuche]

On his second day in office, President Obama ordered the Pentagon to mothball Guantanamo within one year, purportedly to reclaim the "moral high ground." That earned applause from the anti-antiterror squadrons, yet it is now causing all kinds of practical and political problems in what used to be known as the war on terror.

 
APThis mess grew even more chaotic this week, when Democrats refused the Administration's $50 million budget request to transfer some of the remaining 241 Gitmo detainees to a prison likely to be somewhere in the U.S. and perhaps to a new one built with taxpayer dollars. "What do we do with the 50 to 100 -- probably in that ballpark -- who we cannot release and cannot try?" Defense Secretary Robert Gates recently asked Congress.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165410800493933.html

Clearly a decision made for the "effect" and not the wisdom needed to plan for all the required next steps.