Lively Case Discussion #540 11/1 - 11/5/2006

[Grande]

I am going to post dangerously. I re read the Shango at the end of Dave's book.
Carlos & Charlies.. is the house of rave.
Everyone knew what went on there, they have been trying to close it down, HA etc etc

Very possible

Interesting link and I agree with Klaas, it seems very likely!

[friend of monkeys]

those pics blew my margins.....who was that guy?

[Grande]

Shizaru... For timeline perhaps

[Shizaru]

Shizaru - what you posted is not a poster, just an article in the paper, IMO

Coudl be, but then what was Beth talking about when she said the wording was changed from missing to kidnapped?  It looks like the "missing" posters actually came after kidnapped.  Maybe she just remembered wrong.

Shizaru,
They put up "kidnapped" and van der Straaten made them take those down and change it to missing since no ransom demands had been made.  Besides, everybody knew she got into the car voluntarily.  

Then later, they were allowed to use the kidnapped ones again, not sure when that was, maybe after the non-required in an emergency 48 hours had passed.

.

Problem with that tho is that as shown in the sequence posted by Klassend it looks like the missing posters came third, on June 4.  So it would have been

kidnapped (never posted)
Call me hootie (May 31)
Kidnapped (June 1-3)
Missing (June 4)

And that still doesn't explain what poster Beth was referring to, that she said was changed from missing to kidnapped.  I'm guessing she meant the "Call me Hooie" poster and just was mistakem about that one saying missing.

[msmarple]

This is just a flyby, but I wanted to say "Welcome Back" to Tyler. Hope you're taking good care of yourself.

Grande, Others - Didn't it go like this with the posters (although I don't recall dates off the top of my head)?

"Kidnapped" - MB folks had copies of a version of this on the plane. ALE didn't want those used.

"Hootie" - First posters that went up; JR's idea.

"Missing" - Second posters that went up.

"Kidnapped" - Third posters that went up.

(Did they then go back to "Missing" ? )

And to my knowledge, all were in at least two languages.

[Anna]

.
Here you go, FOM!




Be back later. . . . . . .

.

[Grande]

those pics blew my margins.....who was that guy?

Sorry friend of monkeys and all... That is Paul Brough and seeing as though I had already blew the margins I posted the comparison image for Shiz.  It won't happen again intentionally.  Then again, perhaps we should overlook those issues with the ultimate goal of finding Natalee in mind.  JMO and not meant to be an offensive statement.  

Regards.

[friend of monkeys]

Grande....ty 4 pics

  trust me.....blown margins ared the least of my concerns here as well!

regards

[klaasend]

those pics blew my margins.....who was that guy?

Paul Brough/Mr. Pink

[Ono]

Off the top of my head - websites that came down VERY early in the case and stayed down:

Gilliam Van Der Straaten
Lorenzo Van Rijn
Mr. Pink/Meet Mr. Pink
Album/Pancayante (Sasha's 15th BD Party) the entire site is down now
Aru-Bay

Not sure if Freddy, Deepak or Satish have new ones up and running. (Joran, Jaime, Koen, Sander, Valentijn do)

Sasha's 15th BD party was in March 2005.  I called it her 16th bd yesterday but I was mistaken.  She would be 16 1/2 now.  Sasha Rodriguez, sister of Ernesto and Freddy Arambatzis.

I have enough to put the pinch on Paul Brough and Pink Productions IMO.  His pictures and the corresponding documents are in my Photo Bucket album.

Funny i was thinking of Mr. Pink the other day.

Would anyone know if Nat really did have lunch w/ him....
In the beginning i thought there was a pic at the HI...No?

I have been out of the loop for a while.
 Hope all monkeys are well!

Natalee had dinner with someone, however most people seem to want to discount this...  http://i7.tinypic.com/24fh2sn.jpg

Hey Grande:

To me, because of the wording and punctuation, or lack thereof,  it could also mean that Cain only saw Natalee talking with a local man for thirty minutes...not necessarily having dinner with said local man.  It's tricky wording, for sure...but important, as there is a difference, because if someone is actually sitting down and dining with someone, then that infers a more familiar relationship, as opposed to Natalee just casually talking with someone.  I can't quite tell if the wording means she was dining with someone, or not. It doesn't say she was sitting & dining. Your thoughts ? Thanks.

[klaasend]

Ono - I agree.  The way I read it is Natalee is speaking with someone for 30 minutes at the indoor bar area, not durring dinner.

[Ono]

Thanks Klass..

[Anna]

Shizaru - what you posted is not a poster, just an article in the paper, IMO

Coudl be, but then what was Beth talking about when she said the wording was changed from missing to kidnapped?  It looks like the "missing" posters actually came after kidnapped.  Maybe she just remembered wrong.

Shizaru,
They put up "kidnapped" and van der Straaten made them take those down and change it to missing since no ransom demands had been made.  Besides, everybody knew she got into the car voluntarily.  

Then later, they were allowed to use the kidnapped ones again, not sure when that was, maybe after the non-required in an emergency 48 hours had passed.

.

Problem with that tho is that as shown in the sequence posted by Klaasend it looks like the missing posters came third, on June 4.  So it would have been

kidnapped (never posted)
Call me hootie (May 31)
Kidnapped (June 1-3)
Missing (June 4)

And that still doesn't explain what poster Beth was referring to, that she said was changed from missing to kidnapped.  I'm guessing she meant the "Call me Hootie" poster and just was mistaken about that one saying missing.

Shiz,
Note Klaas says there are a couple missing so that is not even complete and I am not sure she is implying they are in correct sequence.  The original kidnapped one is the one I believe they wrote "Ask Joran van der Sloot" across the bottom of and were busily posting at his school so I do think it was used at first.

  Remember there were several groups posting them, too, so at any given time, two different groups could even be posting different posters.  Don't think it is possible to pin down an "official" poster for any exact time.  Did they go back and take down any they had already posted?  I sort of doubt they did.

But the main points of the posters are that Julia was responsible for the Hootie one, the one Beth has received so much criticism for including some from those very quarters, and the fact that they were told not to use the kidnapped one and had to change to missing but were eventually allowed to say kidnapped.  

Maybe van der Straaten allowed the kidnapped one after he "saw the evidence" that the rest of us were not allowed to see.   But your dates for that look about as I remember it, for what that might be worth.  

I seem to remember one with REWARD at the top but that's all I can recall.  Not sure what the other one might be and you might not want to use the Reward one for the time line.  But Klaas will prolly get to the bottom of it all.  

[klaasend]

Anna - correct.  There are a few other posters I haven't put together yet in sequence and I'm not sure I'd know the sequence.  I understand that the HOOTIE poster was the very first one and it was created by Julia Renfro.  One of the Kidnapped ones was not allowed to be put up.  That was probably the one that was created in the states that Beth brought with her (I don't have that one).  Then the Kidnapped and Missing posters with the photo of Natalee on the beach were created and posted.  There have been a few variations since as the reward increased, etc.

[Kat_Gram]

Anna, I agree with the dinner thing and speaking to someone after dinner.
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In Dave's book, he mentions that some girls had come forward re Joran. I am sure that the Jane Doe went to the police and was discouraged from taking it any further. Let's assume that Jacobs was aware of what Joran had been doing and had had a complaint or two. I doubt it an incident report was ever done. But doesn't that make the ALE at fault also.?
You have a situation, everyone knows about it i e Carlos and Charlies and you let it continue. Part of this was the basis for the NY lawsuit. Except it was Paulus who was the resposible person as Joran was under 18.
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I would like it if the family filed charges against the ALE on Aruba, but I guess I can dream on, eh ?  
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I am not sure how all the info that Grande is collecting fits in.
I am tring to think in terms of what the behaviour of the organizations on Aruba ie ALE, prosecutor, what type of crimes are prosecuted, the businesses that operate there... Aruba Today, Carlos and Charlies, the people that we have come to know and what they were all participating in well before Natalee or the MB crew ever got there. It's like a well oiled machine with all the parts working as they had always done. It seems to be systemic and extends island wide. And Oduber ... is he the CEO of a tourist corporation or the elected leader of a country ? Is it a case of the tail wagging the dog ?

[friend of monkeys]

Anna---ty for the happy meal...and fries w/ that shake..lol


K..i thought was aka   Mr. Pink.....as well...was getting confused

TY KLASS ET ALL

[Grande]

Grande....ty 4 pics

  trust me.....blown margins ared the least of my concerns here as well!

regards

Love it, great to hear!

[friend of monkeys]

K..;.since there is no new news but lots of great ears on now...


i have a question....open to suggestions monkeys.

I am going to have a reading by a very good psychic and want to aske one or two questions re---NATALEE

i was thinking

"Where was her body eventually disposed of?"

And.."
  What can u tell me regarding the timing and manner of her death?


Any other monkey ideas?

It is a 20 min phone reading..$80.....and i do have to get in some q's about why oh why i am attracting every loser and con man from here to freakin aruba lately

[Anna]

.
FOM

Aruban Happy Meal!  Don't Eat It!  It's Evil!





LOL!  

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[Kat_Gram]

Any statements that come from anyone who was there are important.
Everyone and anyone might have a piece of the puzzle.
Who was the person she was speaking to ?  There were those stories that she had dinner with an older man, ( an older man to someone 18 / 19 could be someone 25 to 35  ! ) this might be the source of that one.
Charlie Croes being in Jacobs office intrigues me. The people who work for the airline in Florida also intrigue me. The location of the Shango posts also is important.