Natalee Case Discussion #820 6/10/09 - 7/13/09

[jen3560]

Lifesong - I'm SO glad to see you back at SM!!

[jen3560]

Good morning Monkeys!


Hypocrisy.

That is the word of the day today - hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is when a member of another message board whose members participate in cyber-stalking (to the point of creating a blog for such.....HI SS and Destiny!!) comes here and accuses SM members of doing the same.

Hypocrisy is when people join a message board run by a woman they have such contempt for, and have posted publicly and openly about that contempt.

Hypocrisy is when a woman defends Dave's wife for having praised, defended, and lauded the actions of those who are not only disturbingly atrocious, but downright cruel, disingenuous and outright lying about the rest of Natalee's family - all the while stating her board "supports Natalee's family".

Hypocrisy is when the actions of a "search" vessel are applauded for doing the ONE THING everyone who has followed this tragedy for the last four years KNOWS you should NEVER do - turn over evidence gathering to Aruba.

Hypocrisy.

[San]

snip
I do know believe aruba agenda IS the driving force that has prevented Justice for Natalee......

snip
I guess that leaves to......believing in patience......

I don't think it's so simple as good guys/bad guys.  Tim Miller and the family have much more information than SM members and all other bloggers.  Sometimes things are shades of gray.  Where else is Tim going to get access to the equipment and services provided by Schaeffer and Silvetti?  Tim is a gatherer of resources to conduct searches.  If SM is truly a site to support the families of missing people, I think it's members need to stand behind the family and the people they have chosen to help them. (Unless, of course, law enforcement considers a family member to be a suspect). It would be terrible if the actions of searching into these peoples' backgrounds and companies caused Equusearch to lose valuable resources that could one day save the life of someone else's loved one. 

Also regarding all the tracing of links between these companies:  of course they all do business together and there are many links between them.  They are all in the same industry!  Of course their paths are constantly crossing.  Now if suddenly you notice someone OUTSIDE of their industry showing up as a board member or owner of a company, THAT would be noteworthy.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion Iris44, but I don't agree.

You really think that the fact that some "Scared Monkeys" are researching information that is ON THE INTERNET FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE would be reason to deny "valuable resources" that might save a life to Tim Miller? 

Seems ridiculous to me...that is IF they're donating their "valuable resources" for the right reasons in the first place!

Why would these people donating valuable resources even know or CARE what's going on here at Scared Monkeys?  Why would they think that Tim Miller, or anyone besides the Admin of this site would have any control over that?

Natalee's family IS supported here.  But if we have a question about anything in this case, we are allowed to ask it and explore it with each other.  And we can also decide for ourselves what information we gather is interesting or noteworthy.

That's one of the things that makes us unique from other Natalee Holloway forums. 

Plus we have a lot of different people, ideas, and opinions all working together toward the same goal.

TRUTH AND JUSTICE FOR NATALEE ANN HOLLOWAY!

Bravo, TM!  Very well said.

I understand what you are saying, but some of the comments about Dave in the last couple of weeks made me cringe a little.
   
I just think the family and Tim Miller are a lot more savvy than some posters give them credit for.  We are not privy to all the information that they have, and IMO it is time to stop second guessing them.

We all know that people are not all good or all bad. (Well maybe a few).  Everyone respects Tim Miller so much, that some are so conflicted when they see that he is still associated with Silvetti and Schaefer, and they can't understand it.  I am merely pointing out that Tim does what he needs to do in order to get his goals accomplished.   Sometimes there may be some compromising to be done, just like in all relationships.  And the "resources" he gets from Schaefer a huge.  Who else is donating a big ship with sonar equipment?  Who cares why he donates it?  Tim Miller doesn't care why.  And you just never know when someone donating something will decide not to anymore.  Why take the chance?  Most of these not-for-profits are operating on very tight budgets. We just heard firsthand from Tim regarding their donations taking a huge hit due to the report of TES receiving the 1.5 million, which he says they did not receive.  So, just that one news report had a huge impact on TES.

I remember there were some posts from Silvetti's sister saying they were upset with some of the negative posting about him; it may have been about posts from another site, I can't remember.

IMO, http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=5441.msg848300#msg848300  Just alot of negative energy, talking in circles, and no conclusions ever reached. 

In my opinion it is the people they are trusting that we are second guessing. 

We all know who the bad people  are and that includes people who are now posting at another site.  They targeted certain individuals at this site.  They went so far as to find out about their families and find out their personal information.  Why?  We are only the internet.  What could this site do to such a rich man.  Is it like he gets up every day and says boy I hope they aren't discussing me at SM because I just can't get through my day.

It was a news reporter at a news station in Alabama who bad mouthed him.  It was not us.  So if he is taking hits it is because of that interview he did with her.

If you want to talk cyber stalking you will have to ask certain posters that you post with Iris because they are the biggest stalkers on the net.

"I am merely pointing out that Tim does what he needs to do in order to get his goals accomplished." - Would this be like selling his soul (in a good way of course) to get the job done.  It's funny because Klaas said that the other night and a certain person didn't like what she said.  She went so far as to come on here which is not her home and make it a point to show the error.

Tim Miller needed to do what he needed to do but at some point something happened where they had to get Tim off that boat.

Tim Miller is a great man and I respect him for his non stop effort in finding Natalee and other missing children to bring them home to their families.

We are not going to stop questioning something that we see is wrong.

Kyle started it and Kyle needs to finish the job.

JMO of course.

[klaasend]

IRIS44

Since when is wondering if members of Natalee's family or Tim Miller may have been "duped" by members of AHATA disquised as friends, the same thing as not supporting the family?

We have always supported Natalee and Natalee's parents (Beth and Dave).  I have also supported Jug as he did his best to stand by Natalee and Beth.  Robin on the other hand does her best to stand by Reality and MIP6 who have both said horrible things about the MB kids, Beth and Jug.  That is something I personally cannot support.

Iris44 - my post above too simple to reply to?

[jen3560]

I'm really stumped by what Tim said to Dana about having raised money/not having raised money (1.5 mil), and believing THAT reporting error is what dried up their donations.

I wonder if Tim realizes the probability of the ACTUAL reason donations to TES dried up, was the news of his continued association with a known criminal and liar - Louis Schaefer, and a man who turned his back on what both Kyle and Tim felt were the remains of Natalee - John Silvetti.

I know that made my stomach turn, and I know I was far from the only person who felt/feels that way.

[klaasend]

I'm really stumped by what Tim said to Dana about having raised money/not having raised money (1.5 mil), and believing THAT reporting error is what dried up their donations.

I wonder if Tim realizes the probability of the ACTUAL reason donations to TES dried up, was the news of his continued association with a known criminal and liar - Louis Schaefer, and a man who turned his back on what both Kyle and Tim felt were the remains of Natalee - John Silvetti.

I know that made my stomach turn, and I know I was far from the only person who felt/feels that way.

I doubt that's the reason donations have dried up because most don't even follow the NH case any more.  More likely do to the following:

1.  The economy

2.  Seems like recently TES pulled out of a couple of searches (Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings and there was another he backed out of going to in another state..I forget the name of the case right now).  Judging by some of the comments I see about TES on the front page of SM and as I read around people have been disenchanted with TES of late.

3.  That 1.5million Tim Miller says he needs Jen Hale swears that Tim himself told her they had.  Tim says no, Jen says yes.  Confusing.

[Tamikosmom]

I'm really stumped by what Tim said to Dana about having raised money/not having raised money (1.5 mil), and believing THAT reporting error is what dried up their donations.

I wonder if Tim realizes the probability of the ACTUAL reason donations to TES dried up, was the news of his continued association with a known criminal and liar - Louis Schaefer, and a man who turned his back on what both Kyle and Tim felt were the remains of Natalee - John Silvetti.

I know that made my stomach turn, and I know I was far from the only person who felt/feels that way.

I doubt that's the reason donations have dried up because most don't even follow the NH case any more.  More likely do to the following:

1.  The economy

2.  Seems like recently TES pulled out of a couple of searches (Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings and there was another he backed out of going to in another state..I forget the name of the case right now).  Judging by some of the comments I see about TES on the front page of SM and as I read around people have been disenchanted with TES of late.

3.  That 1.5million Tim Miller says he needs Jen Hale swears that Tim himself told her they had.  Tim says no, Jen says yes.  Confusing.

I agree Klaas.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

Good morning Monkeys!


Hypocrisy.

That is the word of the day today - hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is when a member of another message board whose members participate in cyber-stalking (to the point of creating a blog for such.....HI SS and Destiny!!) comes here and accuses SM members of doing the same.

Hypocrisy is when people join a message board run by a woman they have such contempt for, and have posted publicly and openly about that contempt.

Hypocrisy is when a woman defends Dave's wife for having praised, defended, and lauded the actions of those who are not only disturbingly atrocious, but downright cruel, disingenuous and outright lying about the rest of Natalee's family - all the while stating her board "supports Natalee's family".

Hypocrisy is when the actions of a "search" vessel are applauded for doing the ONE THING everyone who has followed this tragedy for the last four years KNOWS you should NEVER do - turn over evidence gathering to Aruba.

Hypocrisy.

I agree.

Janet

[Magnolia]

I'm really stumped by what Tim said to Dana about having raised money/not having raised money (1.5 mil), and believing THAT reporting error is what dried up their donations.

I wonder if Tim realizes the probability of the ACTUAL reason donations to TES dried up, was the news of his continued association with a known criminal and liar - Louis Schaefer, and a man who turned his back on what both Kyle and Tim felt were the remains of Natalee - John Silvetti.

I know that made my stomach turn, and I know I was far from the only person who felt/feels that way.

I doubt that's the reason donations have dried up because most don't even follow the NH case any more.  More likely do to the following:

1.  The economy

2.  Seems like recently TES pulled out of a couple of searches (Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings and there was another he backed out of going to in another state..I forget the name of the case right now).  Judging by some of the comments I see about TES on the front page of SM and as I read around people have been disenchanted with TES of late.

3.  That 1.5million Tim Miller says he needs Jen Hale swears that Tim himself told her they had.  Tim says no, Jen says yes.  Confusing.

My friend, Janice, who has never followed Natalee's case, but knows that I do, saw the segment with Tim Miller and Jennifer Hale.
She said that Tim did say they had raised the 1.5 million and also that they were going back with a 360ft. boat out of Trinidad.

[Tamikosmom]

I'm really stumped by what Tim said to Dana about having raised money/not having raised money (1.5 mil), and believing THAT reporting error is what dried up their donations.

I wonder if Tim realizes the probability of the ACTUAL reason donations to TES dried up, was the news of his continued association with a known criminal and liar - Louis Schaefer, and a man who turned his back on what both Kyle and Tim felt were the remains of Natalee - John Silvetti.

I know that made my stomach turn, and I know I was far from the only person who felt/feels that way.

I doubt that's the reason donations have dried up because most don't even follow the NH case any more.  More likely do to the following:

1.  The economy

2.  Seems like recently TES pulled out of a couple of searches (Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings and there was another he backed out of going to in another state..I forget the name of the case right now).  Judging by some of the comments I see about TES on the front page of SM and as I read around people have been disenchanted with TES of late.

3.  That 1.5million Tim Miller says he needs Jen Hale swears that Tim himself told her they had.  Tim says no, Jen says yes.  Confusing.

In March ... I received permission from Jen Hale to post the following.

Janet

+++++++


EMAIL - JEN HALE

Subject: RE: NATALEE HOLLOWAY SEARCH
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:43:48 -0400
From: JHale@wvtm.com
To:

Dear Janet,
 
I have indeed spoken with Tim about the announcement on his website. It is very odd --- as that information is exactly what he told me. I don't know if you are in the Birmingham area, but he did a phone interview with us where he laid out the search, the boat, the price tag and said it would all happen in the next few months. He told viewers that himself on our air. I am horribly sorry if that has hurt donations or caused large donors to pull back...which is why I have taken the article off of our website.  I have considered putting the whole phone interview on the internet to somehow vindicate myself so to speak, as I know people are upset ... but after speaking with Tim, he is convinced this whole thing has hurt donations, and I would never want to damage the chances of someone finding their loved one. I hope he will consider doing another interview and clarifying, but we'll just have to see how that turns out.
 
Thank you for your time and interest,
 
Warm Regards,
Jennifer Hale

[Tamikosmom]

Lifesong

I have missed you.  I hope all is well

This wannabe detective has been speculating ... speculating that you have been working hard behind the scenes on another timeline.  If not ... what are you waiting for.

 

Janet

[2NJSons_Mom]

Good morning, everyone.  Having been away for a few days, I spent some time late last night trying to catch up here.  Texasmom may have already posted this (I know I saw something last night     ), so my apology if a repeat. 

I did pic up that I missed the ethiks & spelling seminar while gone, though.

******

Swine flu sends cruise ship home early to Aruba
By MARGARET WEVER
Associated Press Writer
Jun 21, 2009 - 14:39:06 CDT
ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — A Caribbean cruise spoiled by a swine flu outbreak ended amid a swarm of masked medical workers on Friday, and broader fears about the pandemic’s spread in the region prompted cancellation of a 26-nation sports festival.

Helicopters buzzed overhead and Coast Guard boats flanked the Ocean Dream as passengers disembarked into a dockside terminal in Aruba, where nearly a dozen health officials shrouded in white clothes and wearing masks checked them for symptoms.

“You come back from a cruise, you’re on vacation, and it feels like you’re on a boat full of lepers,” said Isabel Duque, 48, of Madrid.

Three crew members tested positive for the H1N1 influenza and 11 others showed symptoms during the voyage that started June 12 in Aruba.

That led port authorities in Grenada and Barbados to block the ship’s scheduled stops and forced cancellation of a cruise that had been slated to start Friday aboard the ship, which has a capacity of 1,350 passengers.

The Dutch territory’s Health Ministry said it was examining the roughly 400 returning passengers and an equal number of crew members as a precaution, though officials declined to say if tests had revealed new cases.

Swabs were taken from those who showed basic flu signs such as cough and fever. If a preliminary test comes back positive, officials said, the person will be kept under surveillance on the ship along with people with confirmed cases.

Passengers judged healthy will be driven to the airport, officials said. “The intention is for everyone to leave (the island) today,” said Bibi Arends, director of the emergency management committee, adding that crew members will remain aboard.

The scramble to isolate a few confirmed cases of the disease showed the concern that the disease has roused among officials in a region that depends heavily on its reputation for carefree tourism.

Another Caribbean nation, Trinidad and Tobago, announced Friday it was canceling next month’s inaugural Caribbean Games due to the risk swine flu could spread among athletes and supporters.

The 26-nation tournament was supposed to feature athletes such as Trinidad’s Olympic silver-medal sprinter Richard Thompson and rising 400-meter runner Renny Quow, as well as Cuba’s famed boxing team.

At least a dozen participants in a Trinidad volleyball tournament last week, including players from Trinidadian and Suriname, tested positive for H1N1 influenza.

The Ocean Dream’s Spanish operator Pullmantur, a subsidiary of Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd., had to cancel a weeklong cruise scheduled to start on Friday and some 250 passengers booked on that trip have agreed to a weeklong vacation on the island instead, according to a company spokeswoman who spoke on condition of anonymity due to company rules.

Aruban authorities will not allow the ship to depart before Tuesday unless the World Health Organization clears it for travel, said Edison Briesen, transport and tourism minister.

The ship’s next scheduled departure is June 26.

Duque said the strain of the flu crisis took a toll on the crew.

“Their mental state has changed,” she said. “Their faces are not the same...they don’t have the joy they had at the beginning. These poor people seem like zombies.”

Venezuelan authorities said 381 passengers, mostly Venezuelans but including 55 foreigners, got off the ship Wednesday night at Venezuela’s Isla Margarita. The ship company said that was the final destination of the Venezuelans.

One Venezuelan and one Argentine among those disembarking showed possible swine flu symptoms and were separated from the others, Deputy Health Minister Nancy Perez told government television.

Pullmantur said in a statement that the crew members with flu “are suffering mild symptoms and are recovering as expected.”

The company said the passengers, most from Spain and Latin America, would receive a partial refund.

Associated Press writer Danica Coto contributed from San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Copyright © 2009 Daily Journal Online. All rights reserved.


http://www.dailyjournalonline.com/articles/2009/06/22/news/doc4a3bf5215f3dc729401612.txt 

[Keepthefaith]

IRIS44

"I remember there were some posts from Silvetti's sister saying they were upset with some of the negative posting about him; it may have been about posts from another site, I can't remember."

"IMO, the conspiracy theories and cyberstalking are just a lose-lose for all involved.  Just alot of negative energy, talking in circles, and no conclusions ever reached."

KTF

Sit down with the FBI & give full disclosure in regards to the events surrounding the search in Aruba,as well as all the ship logs..If Silvetti needs attorneys.There's your answer!

Again..Where are the conspiracy theories?People at SM have been cyberstalked from those you associate with IRIS44!I say to you IRIS44.There will be conclusions.Those on the recieveing end of those knocks on the door better have thier diapers ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tamikosmom]

<snipped>

We all know that people are not all good or all bad. (Well maybe a few).  Everyone respects Tim Miller so much, that some are so conflicted when they see that he is still associated with Silvetti and Schaefer, and they can't understand it.  I am merely pointing out that Tim does what he needs to do in order to get his goals accomplished.  Sometimes there may be some compromising to be done, just like in all relationships.  And the "resources" he gets from Schaefer a huge.  Who else is donating a big ship with sonar equipment?  Who cares why he donates it?  Tim Miller doesn't care why.

<snipped> 

 

Iris

Are you implying that Tim Miller ongoing silence rather than exposing John Silvetti's betrayal to Natalee Holloway and her family is a justified compromise when the big picture of missing persons' searches are considered?

Janet

++++++


DATELINE TRANSCRIPT

Dateline NBC - February 22, 2008

Tim Miller: It looked like a skull. Still looks like a skull.

Chris Hansen: So, you're thinking-- you're thinking at this point--

Tim Miller: I’m thinking at this point, "Oh, my God, maybe we've got something. Maybe we've got something." ...

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains. I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


DATELINE TRANSCRIPT

Dateline NBC - February 22, 2008

Dave Holloway: I got a phone call from Tim.

Chris Hansen: And what'd he say?

Dave Holloway: He told me, he said, "Dave, we found her."

Chris Hansen: "We found her?"

Dave Holloway: Yeah. I said, "Are you sure?" and he said, "I’m 99.9 percent sure." He said, "We hadn't gone down and dove under or anything. But the photographs--" he said, "I tell you, Dave." I-- he said, "That's what we're looking for. And that's gotta-- that-- that's it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:   I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it.  This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.

[Tamikosmom]

REMINDER


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

[hotping]

REMINDER


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Well Kyle,  You are not the only one being haunted! 

[hotping]

REMINDER


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Another thing... what is all this WE stuff? 

[hotping]

Lifesong - I'm SO glad to see you back at SM!!

Ditto! 

[2NJSons_Mom]

REMINDER


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Another thing... what is all this WE stuff? 

Exactly, hotping.  This is contrary to other quotes we've read, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Tamikosmom]

REMINDER


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman: Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.

Another thing... what is all this WE stuff? 

Exactly, hotping.  This is contrary to other quotes we've read, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Good catch hotping.

According to Kyle Kingman's own words ... the recovery process did not involve the crew of the Persistence ... only the Arubans ... so I cannot comprehend where "we" fit in.

Janet

+++++++

THE RECOVERY DIVE

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:   For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th

Kyle Kingman:  The bags were deliberately placed there after the divers sampled the contents. The bags were removed just after the ROV got out of the way when the divers took the samples to their boat.... and took off.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand. There was also something possibly recovered from far inside the trap. In the video the diver is inside the trap with just below his knees showing.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it. The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap. From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography. I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

Kyle Kingman:  John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship. I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.