Dems' Wins in U.S. Races Concern Israel

[mrs. red]

First, I think there is a mis-communication going on...

LV, I don't think that Carnut is trying to shut down our discussion but his short answers certainly can sound like he is saying that his word is final...
 Carnut, if you are meaning it that way, I wish you wouldn't....

but I think you just type like you talk and without seeing someone you can't always tell how they mean things...

so I wrote an essay explaining my position and of course, lost the entire thing.. so I am going to try and recreate it ...

LV, I don't see Joe Liberman, who we know is Jewish as being a typical Democrat anymore.  

I think the end of Democrats supporting Israel started with the Clintons and certainly their support of the UN doesn't bode well, IMO, to any support of Israel now... the UN hates Israel even more than they hate the US, and I do truly believe they hate us...

If I recall correctly, President Clinton was the first to actually acknowledge and give credibility to Yassah Arafat.  He was the first President to have him at the White House, and remember the upset caused - especially in New York when Hilliary gave a speech at a women's group hosted by none other than Arafat's wife?  We all know that Arafat was the leader of Hamas.  You must also keep in mind that Clinton had Carville and Begala go over and run a campaign to set up the Barak as Prime Minister.  If you recall, Barak set up the land for peace deal that gave away land after land  and Arafat wouldn't give anything  - that is what lead to Sharon and his harder line... which btw, I think is better for Isreal.  

The other Democrats I always hear about are more to the tune of Charley Wrangel, Howard Dean, Christopher Dodd, John Kerryetc... they are more for the Palestian things...these Democrats I mentioned  felt that Israel had not right to go into Lebannon.. and they threw Joe Liberman under the proverbial bus. - because he is pro war in Iraq... and I believe he is proWar because he understands what's at stake...

I am looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this matter...

Love to you, LV...

[Sam]

As far as I know, Democrats have always been known to support Israel. When I was a kid, the only thing I remember about politics was that Jews voted Democratic. Period.

Mrs. Red, it sounds to me that there are a lot of lunatics in New England (and probably everywhere else) from both parties.

Bottom line, as far as I know, Jews are Democrats. Think Joe Lieberman.

Louise, I have been avoiding all the forums because of a misunderstanding of a post I made.... but you drew me out. I hope you will not misunderstand my post as well.

As a young adult my best girl friend was a Jewish female from California. Oakland Berkley area. We talked about everything. The Jewish religion, celebrities, and politics. She taught me so much and she was primarily Republican. LOL

According to her one of the differences in Republicans and Democrats was the Republicans philosophy was let the people do it and the Democrats was Let us do it for you. Even though I class myself as Independent I would also say I vote primarily Republican. Not 100% though.

I also wound up living in New England for 17 years. I loved it and the people there and there thinking as well. So I do not think we can make blanket statements about any religious or political group or area of the country

My friend died in 1988 so I can no longer ask her opinion of things. I do have a Jewish daughter in law and she is always surprised when she finds I know so much about her religion or birthright. Sadly she is not a practicing Jew. I do think she is primarily Republican or Independent. JMHO

Justins Mama, That speech from Hitler was a very good one to bring to this forum. In 1992 while our son and dil were stationed in Germany we went to visit. Our Dear daughter in law planned our whole time there and one of the things she planned was for us to go to Dachau. It is not what I would have chosen but I am so glad she did. It was so depressing. Even with the sun shining you felt like everything was so dismal. One of the quotes on a board there was " Unless you remember the past you are doomed to repeat it." From reading Hitlers speech it is easy to see how the German people could be misled. By the way both my heritage as well as my hubbys is German. Thank God our ancestors were already in the US many years before WW2.

Now to another Zealot. J. Edgar Hoover wrote an interesting book about Communism called " Masters Of Deceit" I admired him greatly. Later years discovered he was also a MASTER OF DECEIT.

Sam

[mrs. red]

Sam,
I understand that you are from New England  and lived here for a long time... but Red who is from New Engalnd will tell you that it has changed.  And I am sorry but if you look at the "map" you will see that NE is true blue....

[Sam]

Mrs Red,
I guess I need to clarify things a little here. I am a midwesterner by most standards. I married a career Navy man. Because of that we lived a variety of places. Over the years most of our friends were civilian. Because I could not bring myself to be classified as a Navy wife. I was my hubbies wife.  

One of the places we lived was Maine. Most of our friends there were Mainers by birth. When Hubby retired from the Navy we already owned a home there and it was a good place to raise children so we stayed.

One of the sad things that has happened to Maine is all the transplanted from Mass folks. They drove up the cost of homes there as well as Taxes and also changed the Political scenery as well.

So maybe what you and Red are seeing is the result of that. JMHO

Sam

[mrs. red]

Mrs Red,
I guess I need to clarify things a little here. I am a midwesterner by most standards. I married a career Navy man. Because of that we lived a variety of places. Over the years most of our friends were civilian. Because I could not bring myself to be classified as a Navy wife. I was my hubbies wife.  

One of the places we lived was Maine. Most of our friends there were Mainers by birth. When Hubby retired from the Navy we already owned a home there and it was a good place to raise children so we stayed.

One of the sad things that has happened to Maine is all the transplanted from Mass folks. They drove up the cost of homes there as well as Taxes and also changed the Political scenery as well.

So maybe what you and Red are seeing is the result of that. JMHO

Sam

Sam, I logged back on to clarify my post as well... when I speak of this I am talking about the very thing you mentioned.   I am not in any way saying that there aren't wonderful people here, I have met some great people here... that have been here all their lives.....

Just when I say that it's incredibly liberal I am talking about things such as the Vermont judge that gave the man that raped the 6 year old with his friend... 60 days.  I  do agree with you that the movement of MA people with the very liberal ideas they have, did change the landscape... and in Southern Maine in particular, it's gotten nutty left....

Please do not misunderstand that I am saying that every single person in New England is evil... but I am saying that the political landscape here is very left... and even the people I know that are Jewish are Democrat and from what I see... it doesn't jibe....

I do understand what LV is saying, but I think that the far left of the party is taking it in a direction that isn't very pro Israel.....

[LouiseVargas]

Dear Mrs. Red,

I consider you a good friend who deserves a response.

Yes, just as you wrote, that's how I feel about Carnut. His word is final. It doesn't encourage me to reply.  

To me, Joe Lieberman is a "DEMOCRAT." That's how I grew up. I've apparently been asleep at the wheel while democrats morphed into something I'm not familiar with. I've never seen the pro-Palestinian democrats. I live in a big city and read news cover to cover each day. Prolly, regional differences are important to examine here.

***********************

Since I joined this board, I have tried to discuss politics, war, Bush43, elections, etc. I have never talked against republicans nor labeled them. I expect the same respect in turn.

[mrs. red]

Dear Mrs. Red,

I consider you a good friend who deserves a response.

Yes, just as you wrote, that's how I feel about Carnut. His word is final. It doesn't encourage me to reply.  

To me, Joe Lieberman is a "DEMOCRAT." That's how I grew up. I've apparently been asleep at the wheel while democrats morphed into something I'm not familiar with. I've never seen the pro-Palestinian democrats. I live in a big city and read news cover to cover each day. Prolly, regional differences are important to examine here.

***********************

Since I joined this board, I have tried to discuss politics, war, Bush43, elections, etc. I have never talked against republicans nor labeled them. I expect the same respect in turn.

Louise,
I am not trying to label all Democrats or speak against them.  I am trying to understand an alarming trend that is not pro-Israel that I find very troubling... and I see a segment of the Democratic Party leading the charge... I do think regional differences are at play, but San Francisco - which I realize you don't live in - is an example of the kinds of extreme I am talking about... such as them not allowing JrROTC at schools anymore.
 
LV< I am so sorry that you feel that I am speaking against Democrats, and you.. in no way would I ever do that intentionally to you or anyone else on here...

[LouiseVargas]

Mrs. Red,

Thank you, I know you are not trying to label me and/or all democrats or speak against them. You are always fair and balanced and insightful and honorable and uplifting.

And you make me think. Maybe I'm not a democrat anymore.

I was very upset at San Francisco not allowing JrROTC at schools anymore.  If this is what you mean by SF values, I don't like them. I did not know there were democrats who were pro Palestinian. Can you name some names?

I understand about Clinton. He wanted to unite the two sides come hell or high water and bask in the glory of what he had done.

I wonder where I am on the political scale.  How is it measured? What items should I focus on?

With love.

[mrs. red]

LV,
 You are probably like the rest of us, liberal on somethings and conserative on others.... maybe you fall in as a moderate Democrat... (they do exist).

As for the Democrats I feel that are not pro Isreal ?  Any of them screaming against this war and those that are screaming to push us further into the world view, UN way of thinking...because quite frankly, the UN does NOT support Israel, IMO.

John Kerry comes to mind... I don't want us to go in the direction of Europe, they are having HUGE issues right now due to looking the other way and "practicing tolerance"....

Charlie Wrangel is another, Nancy Pelosi - she would be from San Francisco though, so it's a given.  

John Murtha and Durdin (Ill)... these guys are screaming about our troops being murderers, etc.  when a more stable Middle East needs to happen to make us all safer, and we certainly can't expect Israel to go it alone...

Just my thoughts...

I do have some beliefs that are not purely one side or the other, but I probably learn more to the Republicans instead of the Democrats... I was a Democrat during the Zell Miller phase of Dems, but it seems like they are not as easy to find as they once were...

[pdh3]

mrs. red......It's interesting that you mention the Zell Miller type of Democrat. To be a Southern Democrat is substantially different than being a New England Democrat. The Southern branch of the Democratic Party is much more conservative, and usually pro-Israel. Clinton, although from Arkansas, modeled himself after the Kennedys, and tried to use their political formula. Jimmy Carter,  more than anything, tried to use his religious principles to govern the US, and looked like a very weak leader in the process. He was more suited to the ministry than politics.
Zell Miller is the poster boy for Southern Democrats - get it done, use  gov't resources when necessary to make it happen for the citizens who elected you, and be good at campaigning. This is the kind of Democratic example I grew up with. He was a great governor for GA, and the state still enjoys the fruits of his leadership. We have a similar governor now in AL, but Bob Riley happens to be a Republican. There are a few philosophical differences, but very similar results.
The Democratic Party has sort of gotten off track, and that's why they need to push Kerry, Dean and Hillary off to the side and find someone
who can actually get things accomplished. Then they might regain the White House.
I expect the Dems to waste this opportunity, and send Hillary up to bat. They need to go hat in hand and beg Joe Lieberman to come back, because he is the only Dem who is actually qualified to do the job anyway. He has the respect of most people on Capital Hill, so it makes sense to support him. But the smart move is not a part of the Democratic agenda these days.