Caylee Marie Anthony #136 6/10/09 - 6/15/09

[always 1]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

[KarmaRoundUp]

NoRose and Joesamasmama- thanks!  NoRose, that teeth info really bothered me too.  JSM-glad to see, praying for you with the tornadoes last evening!
I'm sorry for two long posts though, everyone. Don't mean to be "hogging" the pages.

You are not hogging the pages, your posts are interesting. I even asked my younger daughter what she thought about the teeth, she is studying criminal justice, and she reads a lot about serial killers and crime, and she didn't have an answer. I always get nervous when she doesn't have an answer, when I throw different things at her about crimes. Maybe there is a logical reason, but I sure would like to know.

I'm sorry but I am confused,I don't remember any forensic reports saying the teeth were scattered?Did I miss that?

Karma,here is a article that mentions it.I don't have the document handy.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/orl-casey1909feb19,0,4724560.story?track=rss

<snipped>

Local, state and federal crime-scene investigators worked with a forensic anthropologist and a forensic entomologist as they scoured the scene for days. Evidence reports showed that Caylee's remains were scattered among at least 40 spots on the property. Investigators marked her bones with flags -- even her teeth were scattered.

Thanks Trimm
I'll have to find the forensic evidence about Caylee's body to see what it says.

[no rose colored glasses]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

I don't remember and I am not sure about little animals scattering bones.

[trimmonthelake]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

A1,here's Nancy Grace discussing the crime scene,bones and Dr.Lee working pro bono.
http://www.primewriter.com/blog/?p=517

[always 1]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

A1,here's Nancy Grace discussing the crime scene,bones and Dr.Lee working pro bono.
http://www.primewriter.com/blog/?p=517

Thank you Trimm, read it again, sickening.

[trimmonthelake]

NoRose and Joesamasmama- thanks!  NoRose, that teeth info really bothered me too.  JSM-glad to see, praying for you with the tornadoes last evening!
I'm sorry for two long posts though, everyone. Don't mean to be "hogging" the pages.

You are not hogging the pages, your posts are interesting. I even asked my younger daughter what she thought about the teeth, she is studying criminal justice, and she reads a lot about serial killers and crime, and she didn't have an answer. I always get nervous when she doesn't have an answer, when I throw different things at her about crimes. Maybe there is a logical reason, but I sure would like to know.

I'm sorry but I am confused,I don't remember any forensic reports saying the teeth were scattered?Did I miss that?

Karma,here is a article that mentions it.I don't have the document handy.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/orl-casey1909feb19,0,4724560.story?track=rss

<snipped>

Local, state and federal crime-scene investigators worked with a forensic anthropologist and a forensic entomologist as they scoured the scene for days. Evidence reports showed that Caylee's remains were scattered among at least 40 spots on the property. Investigators marked her bones with flags -- even her teeth were scattered.

Thanks Trimm
I'll have to find the forensic evidence about Caylee's body to see what it says.

Karma,this talks about bones found,etc.
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/3374B%20TO%203463B%20REDO.pdf

[Cappuccino]

ISpy, great post. I have been wondering and wondering how could Caylee's teeth been scattered if there was duct tape on her mouth? I'm right with that info about the teeth, if not please tell me. I believe it was Turbo's post that was talking about the teeth. Something just don't make sense with that scenario. And I have a feeling, there will be some evidence on the bones as well, from past injuries, or even injuries to the body after death.

I agree also,great post Ispy.I believe Cindy has been told of the findings in the autopsy report.
I aslo agree with NoRose,things don't make sense because we haven't seen the the full picture yet.
I think the autopsy report is going to be beyond disturbing.You don't have to see the photos in order to comprehend what happened.
It will surprise me if there is no evidence of past injuries.

Good morning monkeys, hope everyone is on their way to having a nice weekend.

IMHO considering Casey was indicted Oct 14th on felony murder (murder one) with an additional charge of agg assault upon a minor.  I tend to lean towards the chloroform and/or being drugged is the suspected cause of death.  Dr G did not have extensive testing on toxicology when she announced her physical examination & identity confirmation.   She said that further testing needed to be done but was doubtful at that time it could be obtained even after testing.  I noticed that included in this 30 or so page report toxicology and anthropology is included & is being reported as a "very strong" opinion.   Anthropology is the study of origin, behavior, physical & social development of humans.   What I think we are going to see is a correlation between tox results found in Casey's trunk & possible traces thru autopsy test results, Casey's latent prints and/or DNA that link Casey to forcing a drug/toxic substance on Caylee (agg assault upon a minor).   What we never have heard is if she also gagged her with something placed in her mouth in addition to wrapping the duct tape around her mouth/head as that may not have been evident due to decomposition.   IRRC we did not hear if her mouth was tightly shut or if it became loose over time regardless of the duct tape being wrapped (flooded water damage), we do know that the tape was still attached to hair.  The duct tape and/or gagging would lead towards a smothering, possibly choking on one's on vomit as another consideration.   We do know a heart shaped sticker was found near the body & after going to the lab the lab indicated a matched impression of that sticker on the duct tape.  The bones and teeth scattered may be explained by the deterioration of the body process, water flow & animal activity in the location, I'm not inclined to think there is a leap that her jaw was broken via assault because the jaw bone would have indicated that by physical examination & initial imaging testing (X-ray/MRI).   I concur with Blink, I think there is indeed a latent print of Casey's on that duct tape, maybe more because curiously the reports we have seen totally exclude findings either way in reference to Casey.   You can bet that the State has an advantage because the FBI labs have conducted the tests so no one can order them as to when they submit their final reports or disclose preliminary findings but rest assured the State has gotten at least some word on its results which they technically do not have to disclose until they receive the final reports formally.  I surmise that they tested for persons to eliminate (G, C, L) or include separate of the defendant.   You certainly would not hear from the defense thru independent testing done at the FBI lab with their supervision if there are latent prints of Casey's, you'd only hear them whining if it wasn't found.  In other words, I suspect that Dr G links the trunk findings, found condition of the body as well as Casey's motive, opportunity & possible latents/DNA to being the source of cause of death/murder.

There is definitely something extremely incriminating because all the defense is doing right now is whining about alleged misconduct after the fact of the crime & a very poor attempt to point fingers at other individuals as possibly being responsible for the murder of Caylee.   They have offered absolutely nadda in the way of exculpatory evidence or an alibi nor have they even been able to claim a mental health issue or defect because the defendant has no medical history of ever being treated by a mental health professional or psychiatrist which her family has confirmed several times she never had despite conversation amongst family & friends which is subjective with no documentation to confirm opinions with an actual diagnose.     Additionally, when she was first incarcerated she underwent extensive psychological testing (results sealed), has regular consultations while incarcerated & was never recommended to be placed in a jail mental health ward or mental institution versus jail.  The main reason she continues to be in solitary is because of the crime she is accused of committing.  A diagnosis of anti-social personality (sociopathy), narcissistic personality, bi-polar, histrionic personality, OCD, anxiety, borderline personality, etc. are considered disorders versus disease such as schizophrenia & do not necessarily rise to the level requiring in-patient treatment.  If an individual is capable of knowing the difference between right & wrong while being aware of their surroundings which Casey has established & she certainly did not exhibit being psychotic  (loss of reality) she does not meet the legal criteria for any type of insanity defense & any other "mental defect" defense would require her to admit what she did because it is in essence offering an excuse, same with the "abuse excuse."  In the penalty phase, a mental disorder or abuse excuse is an entirely different issue because it would be an argument towards being a mitigating factor versus an aggravating factor.

[Nut44x4]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

My sister has had many pet rats that love to chew on bones. So if rats do, then mice and moles and other rodents may too. Not sure about raccoons/skunks, etc., but even a fox would take bones.

[no rose colored glasses]

Thanks Nut, and thanks Capp, for your great post. 

[always 1]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

My sister has had many pet rats that love to chew on bones. So if rats do, then mice and moles and other rodents may too. Not sure about raccoons/skunks, etc., but even a fox would take bones.

Thank you Nut, maybe it was you that addressed this before.

[trimmonthelake]

6/12/2009     A     MOTION TO DEPOSE WITNESSES
6/12/2009    A    MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM
6/12/2009    A    NOTICE OF APPEARANCE FILED WILLIAM R. JAY (ANTHONY LAZZARO)
6/12/2009    A    STATE OF FLORIDA OBJECTION TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO CONTINUE FILED JUNE 8, 2009
6/12/2009    A    ORDER FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM
6/12/2009    A    ORDER ON GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY'S MOTION TO RESTRICT DISCLOSURE COURT HEREBY ENTERS A TEMPORARY STAY OF THE AUTOPSY FINDINGS AND REPORTS SCHEDULED TO BE RELEASED ON JUNE 12, 2009. THE STAY WILL REMAIN INTACT UNTIL FURTHER DIRECTION FROM THE COURT
6/12/2009    A    ORDER GRANTING MOTION FOR ADMISSION TO APPEAR PRO HAC VICE


http://www.myorangeclerk.com/myclerk/CriminalSelect.aspx?SessionID=7f2d0f81-c4fa-4b27-ab84-c065c35d79c0

[Cappuccino]

6/12/2009     A     MOTION TO DEPOSE WITNESSES
6/12/2009    A    MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM
6/12/2009    A    NOTICE OF APPEARANCE FILED WILLIAM R. JAY (ANTHONY LAZZARO)
6/12/2009    A    STATE OF FLORIDA OBJECTION TO DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO CONTINUE FILED JUNE 8, 2009
6/12/2009    A    ORDER FOR SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM
6/12/2009    A    ORDER ON GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY'S MOTION TO RESTRICT DISCLOSURE COURT HEREBY ENTERS A TEMPORARY STAY OF THE AUTOPSY FINDINGS AND REPORTS SCHEDULED TO BE RELEASED ON JUNE 12, 2009. THE STAY WILL REMAIN INTACT UNTIL FURTHER DIRECTION FROM THE COURT
6/12/2009    A    ORDER GRANTING MOTION FOR ADMISSION TO APPEAR PRO HAC VICE


http://www.myorangeclerk.com/myclerk/CriminalSelect.aspx?SessionID=7f2d0f81-c4fa-4b27-ab84-c065c35d79c0

The last one is Judge Strickland granting Lyons admission to appear pro hac vice in Casey's defense.  I'm off for a bit to go shopping, one of my guity pleasures to relieve stress CA CHING!   Cyas in a few hours, have a beautiful day!

[strayze]

Joy is saying they brainwashed her, George and Kid Finders!   

I know we have joked around about her...but her interview disturbs me.
Did it make you uneasy?

Made me very uneasy reading it,creeped me out.
I hate to say it but in all of Detective John Allen's interviews......he does just as many"uhh's,ummm's"and studderings as whoever he is interviewing.Makes it hard to follow along.
I'm still confused on the pillow/s Joy found where ever and why she did or did not tear them up because they smelled badly?????   

I think Joy was just trying to mimic George's statement (which I'm sure she's memorized by now, being the total stalker fan that she is) to LE when he was describing the smell in the car, even to the point of saying, "I'm being  honest with you". Unfortunately, one of the sad things about paranoid schizophrenics is that it's hard to be sympathetic (even though they need sympathy, just like if someone that has a more obvious visible illness) because the nature of that illness causes them to make enemies and incite anger a lot easier.

Not if they are on the correct meds     

I agree. 

Is Joy  Schizophenic?  I must have missed that if she is.  I find it difficult to read her utterances, as they are - - - -diffuse and vague.  They are not logical statements and don't make sense.  I presumed it was I that has the problem understanding her.  The term I have used is that she is a total flake.

[Desdemona]

If you think about it, it's pretty simple to know by her current behavior that Casey is guilty. If I were in jail for a murder I didn't commit, I'd be demanding a trial asap... I wouldn't allow my attorney to file all of these motions that end up delaying things. I'd want my day in court immediately! I'd want out of that place!

Hi Monkeys! 
Shhh...   I'm sneaking in a post at work.   
Reading to catch up and had to bump mgoblue's wonderful post from yesterday --we get so caught up in all the details and mysteries; this simply stated logic boosted my attitude immensely.  Oh yeah.

[Blink34]

So the Sean Krause interview thread is back up at WS. Some of the things being said about this man, makes me ill. I know he angered a lot of people, and some of the things he wrote were definitely over the top. But, the man is dead, the man suffered quite a bit before he died. The mean spirited people make me sick. They might as well pull the thread.    Now I have two things to get worked up about already. And then poor little Nevaeh's funeral is today.

So one of the things I adore about you no rose is your kindness and compassion. Even in this case, if it is undeserved to the individual, so please in no way take my comments as a criticism to you, they most definately are not.

This individual, God Rest his soul, spent the last year of his life hating, and inspiring hate among other haters With his free time.
Sad when you think about it really. While I could lather up and spew some of the most salacious, but true, things this man was responsible for, I am not one to cast bad chi into someones alternate plane.  Well, unless provoked, and then God help you if I regret taking the high road on something, and then some.

So I will simply leave you with a quote said to me by John Morgan:

"If that guy was not dying he would be sitting across from me right next to the Anthony's. If I find out he's not, he will be."

and that was AFTER an attempt was made to serve him in the matter, and his diagnosis was known. Trust me when I tell you there would have been a line forming around the building immediately thereafter if he were here, lest that be a lesson to anyone wishing to carry on his ill guided antics. Attempting to malign others character and credibility for their own sick fodder is a crime, pure and simple. Sending an email, unsolicited is spam. Illegal. Sending an email to find somone's IP is called pretexting and is also highly illegal; a Federal offense actually and has been prosecuted heavily in Federal court in Fla specifically.

I will say again it was a shame. Creatively, I don't know if he did his own graphics, but he had some of the best I had seen, very original.

Lastly, one thing I find very peculiar. In his article when he put those emails out, he specifically states that he taped the conversation with Cindy. He said he took copious notes or something to that effect. Why weren't they offered to Sgt. Allen and Det Melich?

Blink

[tupelohoney]

Everybody knows your name...it's BXXXH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66v-9BHKFtQ&feature=channel     

[leslee]

We discussed the bones being scattered when they were found.  Someone suggested small animals would have scattered them.  I said I didnt think small animals would be interested in bones, but someone smarter than me (Im thinking 2NJ) said they would.  Anyone remember?

My sister has had many pet rats that love to chew on bones. So if rats do, then mice and moles and other rodents may too. Not sure about raccoons/skunks, etc., but even a fox would take bones.

I do not find anything unusual or suspect about the teeth being scattered because of the small animals. I also do not think the autopsy will reveal any premortem ( not sure if thats the right word) trauma to the other bones. I think what the Ants want hidden is the ME's strong hypotheses.

[no rose colored glasses]

Blink, I was not aware of all the things Sean was doing, he certainly could be very cruel in some of the things he would say. If I would have been in his shoes, I would have just taken care of myself, and spent time with my family and got things in order. I really can't figure out why he did not do that. 

[Desdemona]

NoRose and Joesamasmama- thanks!  NoRose, that teeth info really bothered me too.  JSM-glad to see, praying for you with the tornadoes last evening!
I'm sorry for two long posts though, everyone. Don't mean to be "hogging" the pages.

You are not hogging the pages, your posts are interesting. I even asked my younger daughter what she thought about the teeth, she is studying criminal justice, and she reads a lot about serial killers and crime, and she didn't have an answer. I always get nervous when she doesn't have an answer, when I throw different things at her about crimes. Maybe there is a logical reason, but I sure would like to know.

I'm sorry but I am confused, I don't remember any forensic reports saying the teeth were scattered?  Did I miss that?

Weighing in on the question of teeth found separately from the skull (they were IIRC), and whether that would be possible if duct tape were still in situ around the mouth of Caylee's skull (it would IMO).  It is so unpleasant to consider, but the truth is that a fully skeletonized body is nothing but bone.  When the body is disposed of outdoors, especially if it is not buried, you must assume that animals will have participated in removal of soft tissues, as well as separation and dispersal of bones.  As for the skull, there is no more skin, no more gums, no more brain matter, no more cartilaginous membrane, just a skull with open eye sockets and nasal openings.  Sorry to be so graphic, but IMO, it is indeed possible for baby teeth to separate from the skull even if the mouth area is sealed.

 

Added:  Ah, I see that my friend leslee beat me to the punch!  Hi leslee!  I'm not here.  I'm sneak-posting from work...  Shhh!

[Northern Rose]

Good Morning Monkeys!!!

As usual, after the release of documents, we have to hear from either the defense or the Ants. This morning, just 5 or so minutes ago, Brad Conway was on the Today Show. The talk was about not releasing the autopsy report. He said that he has read the report but the Ants haven't. Yeah, I believe that too. NOT  He said too much speculation would be put into the report by the public and thinks its best that the coroner is the one to explain the findings. He said the Ants, a year later, are doing their best and focusing on their CMAF so they can help others who are in the same situation as them.   Boo Hoo

I think they would be hard pressed to find others in their situation - granddaughter missing for 31 days and daughter could not be bothered to call 911.  Grandparents denying that grand daughter is dead and that daughter did it. 

How are they going to help others in this same situation?  Tell them never to say the trunk smells like there has been a damn body in it?