March 28, 2024, 10:01:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: NEW CHILD BOARD CREATED IN THE POLITICAL SECTION FOR THE 2016 ELECTION
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #821 7/13/09 - 7/28/09  (Read 436516 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Tamikosmom
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 37229



« Reply #1720 on: July 28, 2009, 10:30:08 AM »


Just got caught up monkeys.  Good morning to all.

(I think we need a "sliding in" emoticon





Great idea Helen!

Thanks Klaas.

Janet
Logged

Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
texasmom
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 32402


ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #1721 on: July 28, 2009, 10:32:27 AM »

Am I gonna be the one to ask about the big ole elephant in the room with a sign on it that says "Department of Veteran's Affairs"? 

because I'm thinking that's gonna be a problem.

 


I just assumed that was the Dark Lard.

I think I missed something!   

Thanks, Anna and Magnolia.  Texasmom, I'm just trying to keep up here, and asked about the server info.  Maybe, as Anna suggested, it was used as an example.

 



Yes - it was used as an example.  But it is also someone VERY interested in this case.

Thanks, Jen

Just got caught up monkeys.  Good morning to all.

(I think we need a "sliding in" emoticon





 

Thanks Helen for the idea and Klaas for the sliding Monkey icon!

Good morning Monkeys! 
Logged

I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
Blonde
Monkey All Star Jr.
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9617



« Reply #1722 on: July 28, 2009, 10:46:16 AM »

Personally, I think they have all lost their minds.

BTW,   I do hope they are banned from reading also. Since they are the ones who park their arses here day and nite, who is stealing from whom?

 



Debbie is on a full ban and anyone else will also be.  The problem is there is always ways of getting around that by using a proxy.  They will not be able to post but they will likely use a proxy to read.

I was told that Debbie used other people's nics and passwords to get into Ringos site so she could read what her members
said about her.
Then I saw the emails from Debbie admitting she did that!

Also, people PM'd her at BFN and Reality replied. So you have to know if you are a member with her having access to your personal information...................






OHHH Yes this is true I have log files to back this up.
Logged

Behind Every Lie is a Clue to the Truth
Tamikosmom
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 37229



« Reply #1723 on: July 28, 2009, 11:01:54 AM »

I would appreciate an insight into why some Monkeys believe that SS has been knowingly part of the deception from the getgo and not one of the deceived.

SS went from unwavering support of CAPS and ... challenging anyone who dared question the actions or the motives of the Persistence prior to the revelation of Kyle Kingman's own words ... to a full comprehension that CAPS was placed on the SM forum to distract from a Persistence betrayal.

However ... inquiring minds want to know what/who convinced SS to backtrack from her new found awareness and return to her orginal positions on CAPS and Persistence endeavor.

Janet

+++++++++


SS - NOVEMBER/DECEMBER, 2008

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
on: November 17, 2008, 08:32:15 PM 


Monkeys - Kyle said that he discovered the trap on the screen very early Christmas morning.  That's when Tim said  "it looks like a skull".  The contents of the trap were cleaned on January 7th.  Persistence continued to use side scan sonor to map the ocean floor well into February.  Now how could they justify all of those extra weeks of searching for a missing American woman if they had already found her in the beginning of January?  They also needed to get our focus off of Persistence and the ocean search.  Viola!  Caps enters the picture to tell us about Manserat Pond.  The picture of the cage was never supposed to be released and I'm sure that caused big trouble.  All of the evidence disappeared.  The fabric sent to Quantico wasn't Natalee's blouse.  There wasn't anything else in the cage - it was just a coconut or a piece of coral.  Back to the ocean search for Peristence so that they could continue with the grids and their non profit search.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546635#msg546635


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2008, 02:08:35 AM »


1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.

2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.

3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.

4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.

5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.

6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg565794;topicseen#msg565794


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2008, 11:53:15 PM »


Jossy and John are friends.  John went to Aruba in March to attend a Mansur wedding.

Has anyone thought about the possibility that the Mansurs own the mineral rights on the ocean floor?  They own 80% of the island.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they own the mineral rights under the ocean shelf.  Translated that means whoever owns the mineral rights makes money off of every barrel of oil that is brought to the surface and John Silvetti had just finished the geological survey to determine where to place the off shore wells.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546590#msg546590


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #322 on: November 18, 2008, 12:22:13 AM »


Oil in that area of the Carribbean is touchy because of Chavez.  He owns everything.  The US needs allys with oil.  Is that why they have been easy on Aruba?  They didn't want the world to know that they planning off shore exploration and drilling.  Another factor was probably money.  Geological exploration is expensive.  Silvetti's company was just about bankrupt.  Wouldn't it be nice to have all of those mapping expenses written off because it was done for the purpose of searching for the body of a missing American woman.  Their survey was done for a nonprofit organization.  How magnanimous.  Crappy Island will be a boom town if they drill for oil and find it and the Mansurs will greatly increase their fortune.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.320


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #726 on: December 06, 2008, 04:23:52 PM »


I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569218#msg569218


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #697 on: December 06, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »


Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569178#msg569178


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #702 on: December 06, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »


Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569184#msg569184


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #702 on: December 06, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »


Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569184#msg569184


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #678 on: December 06, 2008, 01:52:46 PM »


I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569137#msg569137
__________


Dialogue - SS and Tamikosmom:


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #755 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:44 PM »


I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556201#msg556201
 

Tamikosmom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #774 on: November 24, 2008, 10:39:01 PM »


I wish Kyle would respond to these allegations.

Thanks SS.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556243#msg556243


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #784 on: November 24, 2008, 10:46:48 PM »


Dinners over... I ate my crow and it didn't very good at all.  I am so sorry for going at you.  I was so convinced that everything and everyone involved with Perisistence were above reproach.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556257;topicseen#msg556257
Logged

Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Magnolia
Monkey All Star Jr.
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6714



« Reply #1724 on: July 28, 2009, 11:03:49 AM »

Good Morning all!

Logged

The will of heaven be done in this and all things.
Tamikosmom
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 37229



« Reply #1725 on: July 28, 2009, 11:14:57 AM »

I haven't banned Bastibro yet....should I?   

No, Klaas.  It is fun to see how many trolls will fit in a Bastibro Suit.

 Monkey Devil!

Logged

Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1726 on: July 28, 2009, 11:21:27 AM »

Janet,

It's difficult to discuss publicly.....................while still trying to keep within the TOS boundaries here at SM.

Suffice it to say............I personally believe she realized she had been being deceived and didn't like it (thus her first shift in her posts) then was told why, and she accepted it (thus her shift back to her original mindset).
Logged
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1727 on: July 28, 2009, 11:23:04 AM »

TxMom - I wanted to thank you for that post of yours last night.  I believe it shed some much needed light on, and added a direction to the information I posted.
Logged
Anna
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 18149



« Reply #1728 on: July 28, 2009, 11:35:19 AM »

Couple of questions:

Should the name Star Kubiak ring a bell?

Is that IP location...down the road across from the Flying Fishbone?  Wasn't that an Espionage thing?

...not sure what else to ask...

MrsKub, I think.
I think she posts at BNH as Star

Wait a minute.............

Wasn't it 'star' at BFN who posted he/she was in Aruba when Persistence was there?  And that he/she saw Anita and Paulus on the beach.........on either Jan 6 or 7th?

Or is that a different 'star'?


Jen, I think it is a different Star.  We used to have a Star here at SM who had a large doggie as her avatar, I think maybe a Doberman.  She did go to Aruba regularly but seemed nice enough at least to me.  Klaas prolly remembers her and would be the only one who would know if they were the same but I think they are different.  Not that MrsKub character.

But that is just my opinion.
Logged

PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
can
Monkey All Star Jr.
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5199



« Reply #1729 on: July 28, 2009, 11:37:40 AM »

Good Morning all!


Good morning Magnolia.

Morning Monkey's! 

Natalee, justice is long in coming. . . but we wait . . .
God bless.
Logged
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1730 on: July 28, 2009, 11:41:31 AM »

Couple of questions:

Should the name Star Kubiak ring a bell?

Is that IP location...down the road across from the Flying Fishbone?  Wasn't that an Espionage thing?

...not sure what else to ask...

MrsKub, I think.
I think she posts at BNH as Star

Wait a minute.............

Wasn't it 'star' at BFN who posted he/she was in Aruba when Persistence was there?  And that he/she saw Anita and Paulus on the beach.........on either Jan 6 or 7th?

Or is that a different 'star'?


Jen, I think it is a different Star.  We used to have a Star here at SM who had a large doggie as her avatar, I think maybe a Doberman.  She did go to Aruba regularly but seemed nice enough at least to me.  Klaas prolly remembers her and would be the only one who would know if they were the same but I think they are different.  Not that MrsKub character.

But that is just my opinion.

Thanks Anaa.

A doberman?  Now that makes me think about some things.  Anyone know when this Star quit posting here?
Logged
can
Monkey All Star Jr.
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5199



« Reply #1731 on: July 28, 2009, 11:42:15 AM »

Couple of questions:

Should the name Star Kubiak ring a bell?

Is that IP location...down the road across from the Flying Fishbone?  Wasn't that an Espionage thing?

...not sure what else to ask...

MrsKub, I think.
I think she posts at BNH as Star

Wait a minute.............

Wasn't it 'star' at BFN who posted he/she was in Aruba when Persistence was there?  And that he/she saw Anita and Paulus on the beach.........on either Jan 6 or 7th?

Or is that a different 'star'?


Jen, I think it is a different Star.  We used to have a Star here at SM who had a large doggie as her avatar, I think maybe a Doberman.  She did go to Aruba regularly but seemed nice enough at least to me.  Klaas prolly remembers her and would be the only one who would know if they were the same but I think they are different.  Not that MrsKub character.

But that is just my opinion.
Good morning Anna.  Yes I remember a Star (bfn) and she did seem very nice.
She had friends in Aruba and was visiting them there during the Persistence search and posted on bfn @ that time.  I don't recall seeing her for some time.
Logged
Anna
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 18149



« Reply #1732 on: July 28, 2009, 11:42:42 AM »

TxMom - I wanted to thank you for that post of yours last night.  I believe it shed some much needed light on, and added a direction to the information I posted.


As Rob says, the foot bone's connected to the leg bone. . . the leg bone's connected to the hip bone. . . and on it goes.  Having Hotshot as BFF says a great deal.  Remember all her "friends" in Aruba including the one who works at the 'Rott.  And Robin also has such dear friends among those same people, etc.  It does all fit and work together.  I think the attempts to "restore" Aruba started with attacks on some of us posters.

JMO
Logged

PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1733 on: July 28, 2009, 11:47:02 AM »

Star at BFN is the same as Starr here


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366623#msg366623

Quote from: ******* on March 18, 2008, 11:15:05 PM

Quote from: SS on March 18, 2008, 11:06:46 PM
Goodnight everyone.  I am wiped out after Kyle's information about the cage and Fin's cryptic messages.   

******** wrote:
It's wiping me out as well   So many possibilities but so little information  I can't help but think of Buddy Larson,Max De Vries and Gary Makings and wonder where they vainshed to also?

Theres a post on January 2nd at BFN from someone who was in Aruba and said PVDS and AVDS were walking the beach that week. I wonder if they were scoping out the persistence then also? I think it was visible from shore much of that week.

Starr wrote:
*******
that may have been me posting that I saw Anita and Paul on the beach.
I have seen them many times walking on the beach on Sat mornings.
The persistence was not visible from shore without binoculars  most of the time
Logged
Tamikosmom
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 37229



« Reply #1734 on: July 28, 2009, 11:49:20 AM »

Janet,

It's difficult to discuss publicly.....................while still trying to keep within the TOS boundaries here at SM.

Suffice it to say............I personally believe she realized she had been being deceived and didn't like it (thus her first shift in her posts) then was told why, and she accepted it (thus her shift back to her original mindset).

Jen ... that is my take too.

In other words ... prior to the revelation of Kyle Kingman's own words ... SS unknowingly supported a Persistence betrayal or a CAPS distraction.

The question is "Why did SS flip flop and return to the CAPS/Silvetti camp?

1.  Was there a personal incentive to become a participant in the deception or ...

2.  Was SS influenced by a master of deception in regards to the credibility of CAPS and John Silvetti ... the same master of deception who is behind Dave Holloway and Tim Miller's ongoing loyalty to Silvetti.

IF SS does not break her silence and ... in the cause of Justice for Natalee and closure for her family reveal all ... I can only assume that SS received a personal incentive to become a participant in the deception

Janet
Logged

Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
Mere
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3466



« Reply #1735 on: July 28, 2009, 11:50:21 AM »

Good Morning

Starr - monkey with the Doberman - has been here for a long time.  If you check "members" you will see the last time she was here....and her stated location....as well as any recent posts.

 an angelic monkey
Logged

_<br />I believe in miracles...!
klaasend
Administrator
Monkey Mega Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 74276



WWW
« Reply #1736 on: July 28, 2009, 11:51:20 AM »

I don't believe the Starr or Star at SM and BFN is the same person as Mrskub.  Two different people.
Logged
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1737 on: July 28, 2009, 11:52:21 AM »

Good Morning

Starr - monkey with the Doberman - has been here for a long time.  If you check "members" you will see the last time she was here....and her stated location....as well as any recent posts.

 an angelic monkey

Thanks Mere, I did just that.  She stopped posting in March of last year.
Logged
jen3560
Monkey Junky
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 3338



« Reply #1738 on: July 28, 2009, 11:53:24 AM »

I don't believe the Starr or Star at SM and BFN is the same person as Mrskub.  Two different people.

I agree.  But not just two different people.  I believe there was a third.  Here.
Logged
Anna
Monkey Mega Star
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 18149



« Reply #1739 on: July 28, 2009, 11:53:51 AM »

Star at BFN is the same as Starr here


http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366623#msg366623

Quote from: ******* on March 18, 2008, 11:15:05 PM

Quote from: SS on March 18, 2008, 11:06:46 PM
Goodnight everyone.  I am wiped out after Kyle's information about the cage and Fin's cryptic messages.  

******** wrote:
It's wiping me out as well   So many possibilities but so little information  I can't help but think of Buddy Larson,Max De Vries and Gary Makings and wonder where they vainshed to also?

Theres a post on January 2nd at BFN from someone who was in Aruba and said PVDS and AVDS were walking the beach that week. I wonder if they were scoping out the persistence then also? I think it was visible from shore much of that week.

Starr wrote:
*******
that may have been me posting that I saw Anita and Paul on the beach.
I have seen them many times walking on the beach on Sat mornings.
The persistence was not visible from shore without binoculars  most of the time



Right but I don't think she is the same as the Star (one r) at BNH.  Isn't that one generally believed to be MrsKub here?
Logged

PERSONA NON GRATA

All posts reflect my opinion only and are not shared by all forum members nor intended as statement of facts.  I am doing the best I can with the information available.

Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Use of this web site in any manner signifies unconditional acceptance, without exception, of our terms of use.
Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC
 
Page created in 6.149 seconds with 19 queries.