Lively Case Discussion #543 11/14 - 11/15/2006

[sb]

BTW Hi Tyler! LONG time no see!

[justinsmama]

One noteworthy thing about Beth's belief in the innocence of the SG's was that it was EARLY and CONSISTENT. She never wavered in her focus on Joran and the K2, and never swallowed in ANY way the idea that the guards were culpable. She obviously had had zero time to acquire much of the info we now have. Her first instinct with the limited knowledge she had, was the the focus needed to be on JK2. That should tell us something.

That is more than just "they were the last ones with her". Somehow, before even knowing about Renfro and Jacobs and PVDS's duplicity and all the confusion that would follow, she had info or knowledge or understanding enough about the events to tell her that the SG story was bogus.

Where did that knowledge come from?

Beth had ready access to the MB's on the trip.

[shadow]

One noteworthy thing about Beth's belief in the innocence of the SG's was that it was EARLY and CONSISTENT. She never wavered in her focus on Joran and the K2, and never swallowed in ANY way the idea that the guards were culpable. She obviously had had zero time to acquire much of the info we now have. Her first instinct with the limited knowledge she had, was the the focus needed to be on JK2. That should tell us something.

That is more than just "they were the last ones with her". Somehow, before even knowing about Renfro and Jacobs and PVDS's duplicity and all the confusion that would follow, she had info or knowledge or understanding enough about the events to tell her that the SG story was bogus.

Where did that knowledge come from?

IMO First and foremost, a mother's instinct, secondly the instinct of a strong southern woman. Hell hath no fury!

[Tylergal]

BTW Hi Tyler! LONG time no see!

Hi, SB, same here.  Good seeing you and all the monkes.

[Ono]

Ono - Hubbylove answered your question just how I would have.  The security guards were the "fall guys", once that fell apart the coverup of everything else began.

I feel honored Klaas!  I know you and I agree on that point and I'm glad I would able to spell it out... F A L L   G U Y S, period the end

Aruba was willing to let the world know what happened to Natalee as long as SG's got the blame.  Once they could not do that they would never show the world what they did to Natalee and how she died because the white Dutch guy did it.  It would have been murder and in my opinion a brutal one.  Aruba would have allowed us to see her injuries as long as they were blaming the two black guards.  It would not have been an accidental OD like they claimed.   Even if they found Joran and the Kalpoe’s DNA on Natalee they would have said it was consensual which I believe they said the first week when one of the suspects said we all had sex with Natalee.  That was to explain to the media why their DNA was found.  It was a setup.  If they would have known their plan would not have worked they would have never made the consensual sex comment.  They were ripping apart Natalee’s reputation that first night.

After all this time it is Natalee’s untouchable reputation and a mother’s determination that showed the world how evil Aruba really is.

Tourism is down and I hope they continue to suffer the consequences for their actions.

If a tsunami was to hit that island I would not send one cent to support them.

God only knows America has already sent enough money over the years in the form of tourist dollars. Enough, already, I say.... And what has it earned us in just wanting justice for this precious American girl ? NOTHING. To hell with Aruba.

[mrs. red]

yes, to hell with aruba...
on that note good night Monkeys...

keep the faith!

[justinsmama]

One noteworthy thing about Beth's belief in the innocence of the SG's was that it was EARLY and CONSISTENT. She never wavered in her focus on Joran and the K2, and never swallowed in ANY way the idea that the guards were culpable. She obviously had had zero time to acquire much of the info we now have. Her first instinct with the limited knowledge she had, was the the focus needed to be on JK2. That should tell us something.

That is more than just "they were the last ones with her". Somehow, before even knowing about Renfro and Jacobs and PVDS's duplicity and all the confusion that would follow, she had info or knowledge or understanding enough about the events to tell her that the SG story was bogus.

Where did that knowledge come from?

Beth had ready access to the MB's on the trip.

As well as what she learned upon arrival to the cesspool.

[sb]

Been harder lately to catch anyone on here to talk to! Y'all have been mostly daytime Monkeys the last few weeks and I've been real busy.

[sb]

SOMETHING about what Beth heard from the MB group gave her an early conviction that the 3 amigos were conspiring to do something to Natalee. They must not have considered her departure with the creeps to be an innocent joyride, somehow, from what they had seen.

That, plus she just connected the dots in her own mind.

[AZLady]

And sometimes a guess is an attempt to supply "misinformation" and detract attention from the real perpetrators--Joran and the Kalpoes.

[Carnut]

SOMETHING about what Beth heard from the MB group gave her an early conviction that the 3 amigos were conspiring to do something to Natalee. They must not have considered her departure with the creeps to be an innocent joyride, somehow, from what they had seen.

That, plus she just connected the dots in her own mind.

Well, think everyone kinda figures whoever was last seen with a missing person is who you want to talk to.

[sb]

Tyler, if you're still here, I may be e-mailing you and some other Monkeys soon with an idea I had. Not quite developed yet but something I've been considering for a while.

[AZLady]

SB, I'm with you.  We need to continue to focus on the real perpetrators of this crime, Joran and the Kalpoes.  The facts are undeniable.  I don't need any conspiracy theories, and the details surrounding this crime will come out, in time.  For now, I know that J2K kidnapped, raped and killed Natalee.  No one will convince me otherwise.

[San]

SB, I'm with you.  We need to continue to focus on the real perpetrators of this crime, Joran and the Kalpoes.  The facts are undeniable.  I don't need any conspiracy theories, and the details surrounding this crime will come out, in time.  For now, I know that J2K kidnapped, raped and killed Natalee.  No one will convince me otherwise.

I agree AZLady.

[Tylergal]

Tyler, if you're still here, I may be e-mailing you and some other Monkeys soon with an idea I had. Not quite developed yet but something I've been considering for a while.

I would like that, SB.  I have been out of the loop lately secondary to illness and home repairs.  Sick of home repairs.    No, I really did have an illness but it was probably stres sdue to all the upgrades and the $$$$$$$$.

[Ono]

Dear Klass: You are much kinder & smarter than I, (as well as so many of our faithful here), but, Klass, PLEASE explain to me this reasoning....?? I still cannot fathom this....WHY would Natalee's remains have been returned to her family sooner if the security guards had been left to take the blame?

I'm not Klaas but I do agree with her on this point.  The SG's were the fall guys.  If they had taken the fall Natalee would have been returned to her family for a proper burial and J2K would have gone on with their lives as if they had just dropped Natalee off in front of her hotel.  When Beth pushed the issue and viewed the HI tapes is when the cover up began.  If the SG's could not be to blame it would immediately go back to J2K since they were the last seen with her and who I believe are the guilty parties.  They could not give Natalee back to her family because of the evidence that may have been collected to prove this.

Did I make sense??

Of course, you always make sense. However, I respectfully disagree with your mental premise which seems to take for granted what Beth & family would have dis-regarded had Natalee's body had been returned to Beth almost immediately......Do you not realize that Beth and Natalee's family would have left NO STONE UNTURNED until the truth regarding her kidnapping and demise had been ascertained and documented by American forensthic experts ----regardless what the Arubans would have reported, officially, and un-officially? I also do daresay that Natalee's family are very well-educated and are also not prone to accepting what any foreign nation states as truth until that truth is proved.

Ono - I agree with everything you are saying.  All I was suggesting is that Aruba was ready to pin a MURDER charge on the Security Guards.  Because Beth/Jug and Dave knew the HI drop off was a lie they faught for the security guards innocense.  

What I'm saying is that IF Beth/Jug and Dave were not aware of the HI lie, they may have believed the security guards were guilty of murder.  No problem blaming 2 security guards for murder and rape.  Why would the security guards be arrested on murder charges on June 5th if there wasn't knowledge of a murder?  If all had gone the way ALE and others planned it, JK2 and Paulus would be "out of the woods".   Natalee's body could somehow be "found" and given to her family.

Does that make sense?

Klass...I respect you so much. All I have to say is that I do not believe that Natalee's body would have ever been "found" or returned to her family, no matter what Beth did or did not do, at any point in time.  These people who are guilty or who are connected to this despicable crime & coverup, (especially the coverup), would in no way give Natalee's family any satisfaction or relief from their agony.  The folks involved are professional and cold-blooded, IMO. It is big time bad.

[Tylergal]

SB, I'm with you.  We need to continue to focus on the real perpetrators of this crime, Joran and the Kalpoes.  The facts are undeniable.  I don't need any conspiracy theories, and the details surrounding this crime will come out, in time.  For now, I know that J2K kidnapped, raped and killed Natalee.  No one will convince me otherwise.

I agree AZLady.

I am agreeing with that.  I think there are few who will not, maybe even the Refugees have to say otherwise on the internet, but they in their hearts know otherwise, but it does not pay to admit the truth if you are  a RU.

[shadow]

And sometimes a guess is an attempt to supply "misinformation" and detract attention from the real perpetrators--Joran and the Kalpoes.

Yes, it unfortunately goes both ways.  

Just specultaing . . . However, say the three are the perpetrators, but the attention they receive brings attention to all the other "practices/illegal activities" on the island? What do you think would be the outcome and who would help to cover up the crime??

[sb]

AZLady, believe me, I'm not discounting others being involved as well. I am convinced they aren't the ONLY guilty ones.

I keep hearing little tidbits that seem to give a general trend of events that gets closer to the Shango scenarios all the time. But I think the "rave" was not just a big teen party, I think there was organization and networking involved.

[AZLady]

You know, Klaas's theory (that Natalee's body would have been returned if the SG's went down for the crime) would hold water if Dave and Beth had been average parents of an average teenager.  If they had just stayed in Aruba, trusting the ALE, and then left after a couple weeks to grieve in silence, I could see the ALE believing they might return the body and get away with this scam.  Actually, the ALE seem stupid enough to actually plan something like this and completely underestimate the "stupid Americans" (in their eyes).  I think they realized this was not going to work after the first week of dealing with Beth and Dave.  They had to scramble to change the plan and that might be why everything came down in the chaotic and confusing manner on June 10-11.  Possible.