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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #543 11/14 - 11/15/2006  (Read 93316 times)
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klaasend
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« Reply #280 on: November 14, 2006, 09:42:37 PM »

Ono - You could be right.  I don't feel strongly enough to banter with you about it.  I just was suggesting the possibility, but you are probably right.
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msmarple
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« Reply #281 on: November 14, 2006, 09:43:44 PM »

Quote from: "Anna"
Quote from: "msmarple"
Ahem.

The Murder & Crime thread has topped 4,000 views.  Shocked


Does this mean someone besides you and I read it?  LOL.



 Laughing  Yeah, I guess - I know I sure as heck haven't read it 2,000 times! Have you? (I do go there once in a while, to look for something, especially when I'm writing letters.)

Seriously, though - I just happened to notice last night that there were 3,97_ views. I think there have been close to a hundred more since then.
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Why did they have to disappear her body?

Murder & Crime on  Aruba Summary - http://tinyurl.com/2lhukn

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AZLady
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« Reply #282 on: November 14, 2006, 09:46:53 PM »

Quote from: "shadow"
Quote from: "AZLady"
And sometimes a guess is an attempt to supply "misinformation" and detract attention from the real perpetrators--Joran and the Kalpoes.


Yes, it unfortunately goes both ways.  Confused

Just specultaing . . . However, say the three are the perpetrators, but the attention they receive brings attention to all the other "practices/illegal activities" on the island? What do you think would be the outcome and who would help to cover up the crime??


Well, shadow, I posted the first articles last June 2005 about the money laundering on the island and the casinos.  My reasoning was that it took an entirely corrupt legal and law enforcement system to allow the Black Market Peso exchange to thrive.  The money laundering has now moved to the online gambling business in Aruba, and if the heat is on, that business is highly portable and can be moved to other places quite easily.  The porn business likewise is easily moved.  The entire island is a haven for drugs, money laundering, porn and illegal gambling and has been for decades.  You don't grow these businesses without a corrupt system, to the core.
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Ono
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« Reply #283 on: November 14, 2006, 09:47:28 PM »

Quote from: "sb"
One noteworthy thing about Beth's belief in the innocence of the SG's was that it was EARLY and CONSISTENT. She never wavered in her focus on Joran and the K2, and never swallowed in ANY way the idea that the guards were culpable. She obviously had had zero time to acquire much of the info we now have. Her first instinct with the limited knowledge she had, was the the focus needed to be on JK2. That should tell us something.

That is more than just "they were the last ones with her". Somehow, before even knowing about Renfro and Jacobs and PVDS's duplicity and all the confusion that would follow, she had info or knowledge or understanding enough about the events to tell her that the SG story was bogus.

Where did that knowledge come from?


"Truth has a ring" ?  If one listens, it can be detected.
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #284 on: November 14, 2006, 09:47:43 PM »

Quote from: "sb"
AZLady, believe me, I'm not discounting others being involved as well. I am convinced they aren't the ONLY guilty ones.

I keep hearing little tidbits that seem to give a general trend of events that gets closer to the Shango scenarios all the time. But I think the "rave" was not just a big teen party, I think there was organization and networking involved.


 Shocked  Shocked  Shocked ]
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shadow
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« Reply #285 on: November 14, 2006, 09:49:54 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "shadow"
Quote from: "AZLady"
And sometimes a guess is an attempt to supply "misinformation" and detract attention from the real perpetrators--Joran and the Kalpoes.


Yes, it unfortunately goes both ways.  Confused

Just specultaing . . . However, say the three are the perpetrators, but the attention they receive brings attention to all the other "practices/illegal activities" on the island? What do you think would be the outcome and who would help to cover up the crime??


Well, shadow, I posted the first articles last June 2005 about the money laundering on the island and the casinos.  My reasoning was that it took an entirely corrupt legal and law enforcement system to allow the Black Market Peso exchange to thrive.  The money laundering has now moved to the online gambling business in Aruba, and if the heat is on, that business is highly portable and can be moved to other places quite easily.  The porn business likewise is easily moved.  The entire island is a haven for drugs, money laundering, porn and illegal gambling and has been for decades.  You don't grow these businesses without a corrupt system, to the core.
[/b]

You're right about that!
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There is a basin in the mind where words float around on thought and sound and sight. Then there is a depth of thought untouched by words, and deeper still a gulf of formless feelings untouched by thought. - Zora Neal Hurston
AZLady
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« Reply #286 on: November 14, 2006, 09:50:07 PM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Quote from: "sb"
AZLady, believe me, I'm not discounting others being involved as well. I am convinced they aren't the ONLY guilty ones.

I keep hearing little tidbits that seem to give a general trend of events that gets closer to the Shango scenarios all the time. But I think the "rave" was not just a big teen party, I think there was organization and networking involved.


 Shocked  Shocked  Shocked ]


Yes, others have to be involved to orchestrate this coverup.  No doubt.  Lala's, I do think Shango was trying to give us clues.  I just wonder where he went?   Shocked
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #287 on: November 14, 2006, 09:50:53 PM »

I don't think Shango ever left...just morphed into someone else.
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Ono
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« Reply #288 on: November 14, 2006, 09:51:59 PM »

Quote from: "Carnut"
Quote from: "Ono"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Ono - Hubbylove answered your question just how I would have.  The security guards were the "fall guys", once that fell apart the coverup of everything else began.


Well....I KNOW that the security guards were the "fall guys"...that was clearly evident to everyone including the blind, from the get-go, a year and a half ago.  However, I do not see how anything Beth said or did not say, or did, or did not do, would have made any difference at all, as to the recovery of the body, OR naming the guilty.....It is very apparent now, that all who count on Aruba, as far as legal or law enforcement goes, lie and maneuver at will . Recovering Natalee's remains at any time was never an option for the guilty on Aruba................whatever Beth did or did not do, say or did not say, made absolutely NO difference to these criminals.  They were determined that the truth was to be hidden...however, truth has a funny way of always rising for all to see. Truth will rise.


Well, think there's speculation that if Beth hadn't blown the SG's as fallguys, that maybe the plan had been to recover the body.

Yes that's a bit of a reach, but if you look at how a previous statement said someone had told where the body could be found and the disruption that occured that day, may have been in preparation to give up the body, only that plan got derailed.

Guess we all will never know on that one.


Casting blame on the victim or their family gives the guilty criminals "a ticket to ride".
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AZLady
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« Reply #289 on: November 14, 2006, 09:52:26 PM »

I just wonder if Aruba is more upset and concerned about the porn and money laundering moving elsewhere now that the world's flashlight has illuminated the dark corners.  I just bet that more Dutch officials are disturbed at these businesses leaving Aruba than the tourists not coming to Aruba!!
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Mere
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« Reply #290 on: November 14, 2006, 09:52:50 PM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
I don't think Shango ever left...just morphed into someone else.


 Shocked  Shocked  Shocked
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« Reply #291 on: November 14, 2006, 09:54:52 PM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
I don't think Shango ever left...just morphed into someone else.


Do you think he's still trying to give us the clues that will shed some light on this?
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #292 on: November 14, 2006, 09:57:31 PM »

Quote from: "MeMere"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
I don't think Shango ever left...just morphed into someone else.


 Shocked  Shocked  Shocked


Well, with an ego the size of Shango's would you just leave and never come back?  Afterall, he is very popular around here and has garnered a lot of attention.
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Tylergal
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« Reply #293 on: November 14, 2006, 09:57:59 PM »

Quote from: "Ono"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "Ono"
Quote from: "hubbylove"
Quote from: "Ono"

Dear Klass: You are much kinder & smarter than I, (as well as so many of our faithful here), but, Klass, PLEASE explain to me this reasoning....?? I still cannot fathom this....WHY would Natalee's remains have been returned to her family sooner if the security guards had been left to take the blame?


I'm not Klaas but I do agree with her on this point.  The SG's were the fall guys.  If they had taken the fall Natalee would have been returned to her family for a proper burial and J2K would have gone on with their lives as if they had just dropped Natalee off in front of her hotel.  When Beth pushed the issue and viewed the HI tapes is when the cover up began.  If the SG's could not be to blame it would immediately go back to J2K since they were the last seen with her and who I believe are the guilty parties.  They could not give Natalee back to her family because of the evidence that may have been collected to prove this.

Did I make sense??


Of course, you always make sense. However, I respectfully disagree with your mental premise which seems to take for granted what Beth & family would have dis-regarded had Natalee's body had been returned to Beth almost immediately......Do you not realize that Beth and Natalee's family would have left NO STONE UNTURNED until the truth regarding her kidnapping and demise had been ascertained and documented by American forensthic experts ----regardless what the Arubans would have reported, officially, and un-officially? I also do daresay that Natalee's family are very well-educated and are also not prone to accepting what any foreign nation states as truth until that truth is proved.

Ono - I agree with everything you are saying.  All I was suggesting is that Aruba was ready to pin a MURDER charge on the Security Guards.  Because Beth/Jug and Dave knew the HI drop off was a lie they faught for the security guards innocense.  

What I'm saying is that IF Beth/Jug and Dave were not aware of the HI lie, they may have believed the security guards were guilty of murder.  No problem blaming 2 security guards for murder and rape.  Why would the security guards be arrested on murder charges on June 5th if there wasn't knowledge of a murder?  If all had gone the way ALE and others planned it, JK2 and Paulus would be "out of the woods".   Natalee's body could somehow be "found" and given to her family.

Does that make sense?


Klass...I respect you so much. All I have to say is that I do not believe that Natalee's body would have ever been "found" or returned to her family, no matter what Beth did or did not do, at any point in time.  These people who are guilty or who are connected to this despicable crime & coverup, (especially the coverup), would in no way give Natalee's family any satisfaction or relief from their agony.  The folks involved are professional and cold-blooded, IMO. It is big time bad.


There was never any intention of returning the body to the family.  The family knew right away this was wrong and they would have asked for an autopsy and these maggots in Aruba knew that.  They knew her body could never be returned to the family because it would have cleared the security guards.  DNA is a powerful witness.  Even Deepak knows that as he said, "If they find the girl, they are going to see all that shit."
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #294 on: November 14, 2006, 09:58:23 PM »

Quote from: "AZLady"
Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
I don't think Shango ever left...just morphed into someone else.


Do you think he's still trying to give us the clues that will shed some light on this?


If I knew the answer to that question, I would be Shango.  Wink
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BIGORANGECRUSH
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« Reply #295 on: November 14, 2006, 10:00:05 PM »

Quote from: "mrs. red"
yes, to hell with aruba...
on that note good night Monkeys...

keep the faith!



I'm with you! Cool
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #296 on: November 14, 2006, 10:04:04 PM »

Since a month had passed before the conversation in the van took place, I wonder just exactly what kind of "chit" Deepak meant.  Taking decomp into consideration and excluding DNA, just what did they do to her?  It makes me faint of heart to even think about it.  Shocked
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AZLady
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« Reply #297 on: November 14, 2006, 10:04:12 PM »

MsMarple, I just took a look at the Crimes thread.  This is top-notch work!!  You are to be commended.  Everyone needs to read this thread.  While some threads are pure speculation and wishful guessing, this thread is based on facts and verifiable reports.  I'm very impressed and will make this thread one of my stops each time I login to catch up with the Monkeys.
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Ono
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« Reply #298 on: November 14, 2006, 10:06:14 PM »

Quote from: "klaasend"
Ono - You could be right.  I don't feel strongly enough to banter with you about it.  I just was suggesting the possibility, but you are probably right.


I don't want to banter either...we don't know. But I have had the sneaky, creepy feeling from the beginning that whatever it was that Natalee inadvertantly fell into that evening without her knowledge was serious crime stuff and there would be no "normal" negotiation to any future resolution. Whatever it is that "they" are hiding on that crime-infested island,  Natalee was just an irritating attention getter that "they" had never counted upon. I shudder to think what really must go on behind the scenes of Aruba on a day to day basis. Shocked  I'm thinking that Joran and his band of pirates has brought on way too much attention now.  We have also witnessed the sophisticated level of coverup...equate the coverup modus operandi with what must be under the surface. Lotta doo doo. Shocked
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AZLady
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« Reply #299 on: November 14, 2006, 10:06:27 PM »

Quote from: "Lala'sMom"
Since a month had passed before the conversation in the van took place, I wonder just exactly what kind of "chit" Deepak meant.  Taking decomp into consideration and excluding DNA, just what did they do to her?  It makes me faint of heart to even think about it.  Shocked


Lala's, I can't help but think Satish's gun was used to inflict wounds upon her.  These could not be covered up or disguised.  Maybe this is the hold that the van der Sloot's have on the Kalpoe brothers.  It was Satish's gun.
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