Caylee Marie Anthony #138 6/18/09 - 6/21/09

[darla]

Good Morning Monkeys and Guest! Welcome to all the new Monkeys!

I have now read through the autopsy reports 3 times. I had a really hard time letting the evil of what KC did to really sink in. How any human could do that to their own child is beyond me. I have no remorse at wanting to see KC fry. My opinion is just my opinion, but I think Caylee died on the night of the 15th after the big fight. I do not think the fight had to do with the stolen money from Grandma Shirley. I feel that Caylee may have told Cindy something that day. And I don't think George saw them on the 16th as stated. The clothes he described are the same as KC described her wearing on the 9th. And it is not what was found with her little body. I don't think she was ever placed in a freezer...the food KC had was on the 27th .I think she duct taped her and put her in the trunk on the 15th. She was no where to be seen on the night of the 16th. I have seen a dead body after a few days. It is not a pretty site. Caylee weighed I think about 35 lbs. By day two she would have weighed more like 50 lbs or more in the heat. Sorry to be so graphic..but it is what it is. After 4-5 days she would not have been able to pick the body up to bag it without it erupting and having bodily fluids all over everything in close proximity. She may have been able to put it into a second bag and then the laundry hamper within the 2-3 day mark. I truely think Caylee was placed in the woods by at least the 18th. After that KC would have had a very hard time moving it out of the trunk without having a huge mess. These are JMOO. I have been known to be wrong.

Boo, glad to see you and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.
I won't be on much for the next week but will try to catch up reading late at night. I have company coming Tuesday and my house is a disaster area from sitting here 18 hours a day. Have a great weekend.

God Bless you Caylee and hold you safe forever in His Loving Arms.

[Kat_Gram]

That duct tape was on tight. Wasn't there a Pooh blankie in the bag ?
Maybe she did lay her down in the trunk for a " nap", cheaper than a babysitter for Monday night.
..
There were high levels of chloroform in the trunk ? And unless someone admits to cleaning the car with pesticides because of the maggots before LE got there, the chloroform searches on her computer does make her look even worse ( if that is possible ).
There were other items that were sent to the FBI labs where there has been no return report available to us.
..
George and Cindy want to pull the " grieving " routine whenever the questions get too tough for them to answer.
I have noticed that the callers into Nancy Grace & Nancy's guests have all done a shift in their opinions of George and Cindy. People have started to turn on them. I believe it is Morgan & Mitnik's despositons that have helped that tide turn. I wouldn't expect that Cindy and George provide any information that would help Casey get the Death Penalty, but it is the lying and the blaming and accusations of other persons that is their undoing.
..
Mr. Grund was probably relieved to see that the date of death was close to the date when she was last seen and that there was no evidence so far to suggest that anyone else had a hand in this. Who's next on George and Cindy's " blame " list, probably TonE.

[leslee]

It's very possible Casey thought her car had been stolen from Amscot parking lot. When she went back with the gas can that Amy bought, the car was gone. She must have been feeling pretty care-free after discovering it was gone.....her plan worked, so she thought....until Momma Ratchet showed up at Tony's freaking out about the car. Casey had to think fast on her feet and come up with plan B story......not so easy to do if he car was out of the equation.....kidnapping, car-jacking scenario not gonna fly

There are so many pieces to this puzzle. Why did she ask Amy to buy a gas can if she had intended on leaving it sit there til stolen? And how if she was going to use a car jacking/stolen scenario would she have let Tony and Amy know where it was? That plan would have been a failure too. I mean she called Tony to pick her up from Amscott, certainly he knows her car was right there she was standing by it.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5039601/10-Gary-Ridgeway-Transcript

According to the tow truck driver the door was locked and the only thing he saw inside was the car seat. So I don't think she intended to have her car stolen.

She left her purse clearly visible on the front seat IIRC

I had heard that too Seeme....way back last August I camped out at the low rent Topix But here is the very first set of docs that came out and on pg 203 it starts talking about the car and wrecker service...possibly to pg 233.
p.253 has the list of stuff LE took from car. At no point anywhere does it say the purse was in the front seat keys were in it. It does say the car was locked when it was picked up from Amscot.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4818180/Casey-Anthony-Documents

There have been so many witness statements and different takes on things in this case (not to mention all of Casey's lies to muck things up even more) but I'm sure I read somewhere that Cindy had the opportunitity to clean things out of the car prior to LE taking posession and doing inventory of the contents.  I believe it may have been in Lee's statement (don't hold me to it) about the purse and the keys.  I do specifically recall that there was money that Cindy snatched back on the evening of Juy 15th  and Lee somehow got keys (since he mentioned about Amy's car key) before turning anything over to LE.  We know for sure Cindy got pants out of the car and washed them and was airing out the car and most likely cleaned it up as best as possible before LE took the car.

Lee brought some stuff over from Tony's that is what they were going through....she left her cell at his house too. She may have grabbed her purse when Cindy picked her up or left it at Tonys and Lee got it. Bottom line is NOWHERE in the documents does it say her purse and keys were left in her locked car. And if she wanted to set up a car jacking theory she would not have let Tony or Amy know she ran out of gas.

[Northern Rose]

Good Morning Monks!

This comment appeared on blinkoncrime.com, and I found it fascinating so I thought I would share. It really might be the impetus for the duct tape, at least initially. Is a tad clinical, I do apologize, but if you have ever seen a recently deceased individual, this is 100% true-

Posted by CB:

No chloroform, etc. found. No trauma. No obvious means of death. Had to be homocide, 3-yr old children do not just up and die w/o some detectable cause and too old for SIDS. Ergo, I think she drowned, how I don’t know, accident or accidently on purpose. The duct tape applied post mortem. Have you heard the term, positive “O” sign. Some medical people refer to it when the person is very near death or has just died–the jaw drops open. Nothing left to hold the mandible shut. In morgue kits there is a strap that is applied around the jaw to gently close it before rigor sets in. This “O” sign can be very pronounced and unsettling to see first hand. Casey probably wasn’t aware of this and was really spooked by this silent scream and used the duct tape then put a heart sticker on it as a ________ (fill in the blank). I’ve been lurking a long time and just cannot keep quiet any longer with my opinion, JMHO! Feel free to delete this as I’m the first to say it is gruesome and many won’t want to hear or know this nity-grity. Blink, I told you I would comment at some point when I had learned more. So…..this is it. CB “onionskin”

Blinks Response:

You know what CB/Onionskin? That is fascinating and I have never thought of that. You very well could be 100% correct, at least in the trigger for the duct tape in the first place. I honestly dont think there is anything more gruesome than what we already know.
B

Just throwing it out there, Maybe one of our Medical Monks (Northern Rose) can weigh in?

B

It would explain the multiple pieces of tape as holding the mouth together with a piece of tape would probably not hold the jaw up.  O or Q sign is when the jaw drops open.  There is only tissue holding the mandible in place.  The jaw moves on the mandibular condyle which is pretty much a big knuckle.  If a piece of tape were only placed horizontally across the lips chances are that it would not have stopped the jaw from dropping.  The tape would have more luck if it was paced vertically from under chin to nose.  The hinge point (mandibular condyle) for the jaw is just in front of your ear.  So to keep that in place the tape would have to go all the way across over the ears.  It is possible that she started with a small piece of tape across the lips not knowing that the hinge point was by the ear.  More tape was added until she got past the condyle where it would finally be effective.  This also explains why hair was in the duct tape.

Other issue with this is that right after death algor mortis sets in where the body immediately starts losing temperature.  It takes 2-6 hours for rigor to set in.  The tape theory to stop O or Q sign would only be possible if it was placed within 2 hours after death IMO.  If this is too graphic mods please delete.

[no rose colored glasses]

If how Caylee died was from an accident, which I don't think so, and what Blink was saying that Casey was more afraid of Cindy knowing, that in itself is very frightening. I wonder what kind of hell Lee and Casey grew up with? Sometimes the more info we receive to read, the more confused I become 

[pharlap]

monkeys,
i just don't have it in me tonight.  casey wrapped that babies face in duct tape and thats what killed her.  from chin to nose.  maybe after that she put her in the pool, maybe she didn't?  george and cindy got that car back and scrubbed the hell out of it.they knew!  what on earth would make someone do that?  really??  ?  yeayeayea..they love her (casey) my foot!  i understand loving your kid but Come On?  (oh jeeze, i just quoted casey )  What puts casey before Caylee?  'cause she's still alive??  i just can't buy that.

I am with you on this. There is MORE to this story. And you betcha we will all stay tuned.
I have wondered like some of you monkeys for a long time now what is the big family secret.
Not for just the reasons you quoted, but from the beginning we saw this family self-isolated. I have forgotten the correct term. But a family with a big bad secret keep the doors closed to outsiders. We have speculated, wondered and thought this out. There is the obvious secret of paternity we have all considered. But there could be other secrets. Many possibilities to this nasty secret. ( As a child, I knew two of these 'isolated' families and in both cases the cause was SHAME.)

snip...
what did casey have on them to make them cover up for her

.I first thought about that from the time in July when the a's starting changing their stories.
Guess we just have to wait for the trial.....I'm sure some shoes are going to drop..
 

[monkalicious]

Good Morning Monks!

This comment appeared on blinkoncrime.com, and I found it fascinating so I thought I would share. It really might be the impetus for the duct tape, at least initially. Is a tad clinical, I do apologize, but if you have ever seen a recently deceased individual, this is 100% true-

Posted by CB:

No chloroform, etc. found. No trauma. No obvious means of death. Had to be homocide, 3-yr old children do not just up and die w/o some detectable cause and too old for SIDS. Ergo, I think she drowned, how I don’t know, accident or accidently on purpose. The duct tape applied post mortem. Have you heard the term, positive “O” sign. Some medical people refer to it when the person is very near death or has just died–the jaw drops open. Nothing left to hold the mandible shut. In morgue kits there is a strap that is applied around the jaw to gently close it before rigor sets in. This “O” sign can be very pronounced and unsettling to see first hand. Casey probably wasn’t aware of this and was really spooked by this silent scream and used the duct tape then put a heart sticker on it as a ________ (fill in the blank). I’ve been lurking a long time and just cannot keep quiet any longer with my opinion, JMHO! Feel free to delete this as I’m the first to say it is gruesome and many won’t want to hear or know this nity-grity. Blink, I told you I would comment at some point when I had learned more. So…..this is it. CB “onionskin”

Blinks Response:

You know what CB/Onionskin? That is fascinating and I have never thought of that. You very well could be 100% correct, at least in the trigger for the duct tape in the first place. I honestly dont think there is anything more gruesome than what we already know.
B

Just throwing it out there, Maybe one of our Medical Monks (Northern Rose) can weigh in?

B

It would explain the multiple pieces of tape as holding the mouth together with a piece of tape would probably not hold the jaw up.  O or Q sign is when the jaw drops open.  There is only tissue holding the mandible in place.  The jaw moves on the mandibular condyle which is pretty much a big knuckle.  If a piece of tape were only placed horizontally across the lips chances are that it would not have stopped the jaw from dropping.  The tape would have more luck if it was paced vertically from under chin to nose.  The hinge point (mandibular condyle) for the jaw is just in front of your ear.  So to keep that in place the tape would have to go all the way across over the ears.  It is possible that she started with a small piece of tape across the lips not knowing that the hinge point was by the ear.  More tape was added until she got past the condyle where it would finally be effective.  This also explains why hair was in the duct tape.

Other issue with this is that right after death algor mortis sets in where the body immediately starts losing temperature.  It takes 2-6 hours for rigor to set in.  The tape theory to stop O or Q sign would only be possible if it was placed within 2 hours after death IMO.  If this is too graphic mods please delete.

This is extremely valuable info, Northern Rose.  Thanks for explaining it so clearly.

[no rose colored glasses]

Northern Rose, that made a lot of sense, thanks. I honestly didn't know about this.

[cece]

Welcome Eyecare2 & the new monkeys from yesterday! Also, Big HUGS to BooMonkey!! 

I'll second that emotion!

Big welcome to all the new Monkeys!!!



And Big Hugs to Boo!  So glad to see you back posting.

[Northern Rose]

Thinking about tape to stop O or Q sign has raised a new question in my mind.  If in fact the tape was used as Casey found it too disturbing to see, why did she not do something to cover Caylee's eyes as well?  The eyes immediately change and would be more pronounced and haunting then O sign to anyone that has not seen them before.

[cece]

Blink that was an interesting comment you posted from your site. That would make a lot of sense. But the question, which I'm sure we will probably never know is how exactly Caylee died. I thought perhaps she duct taped her and she died that way, but people are right without the hands tied it would have been very difficult. So I guess maybe she smothered Caylee, and then did what she did with the duct tape.

NoRose,You're right.We may never know,but I just can't get past the duct tape,no matter when it was placed on Caylee's face.   

I'm with you Trimm.  I can't get past the duct tape either.

Could her wrists have been bound first with tape?  Wasn't there tape recovered at the crime scene?  And some of the little hand bones missing?  (Just still questioning)

[no rose colored glasses]

Thinking about tape to stop O or Q sign has raised a new question in my mind.  If in fact the tape was used as Casey found it too disturbing to see, why did she not do something to cover Caylee's eyes as well?  The eyes immediately change and would be more pronounced and haunting then O sign to anyone that has not seen them before.

That's another very good point. Could something have been put over her eyes, the pooh blanket, maybe?

[N2WISHN]

Thinking about tape to stop O or Q sign has raised a new question in my mind.  If in fact the tape was used as Casey found it too disturbing to see, why did she not do something to cover Caylee's eyes as well?  The eyes immediately change and would be more pronounced and haunting then O sign to anyone that has not seen them before.

I just don't see KC having all that much contact with a dead Caylee aside from stuffing her in a bag. It appears to me that the tape was placed on her before she was murdered.

[no rose colored glasses]

Thinking about tape to stop O or Q sign has raised a new question in my mind.  If in fact the tape was used as Casey found it too disturbing to see, why did she not do something to cover Caylee's eyes as well?  The eyes immediately change and would be more pronounced and haunting then O sign to anyone that has not seen them before.

I just don't see KC having all that much contact with a dead Caylee aside from stuffing her in a bag. It appears to me that the tape was placed on her before she was murdered.

After reading everything yesterday that was my conclusion, but now with these other issues being brought up, I'm more confused. I didn't know about the jaw/mouth opening like that after death.

[Grandma2Maddie]

I have a big favor to ask of you monkeys.  Could someone send me a link to be able to read the actual autopsy document as I only have a limited time to be on here for most of the day.  I actually have about 1 hour and then have errands to do.

Please!

[no rose colored glasses]

Darla, you are right about the weight issue, I think Casey put Caylee's remains in that swampy area early on, around the 18th, give or take a day or two.  Have a good time with your company 

[Kat_Gram]

And WHY have so many high priced lawyers signed on to defending this  ?
They have the same info we do and more !
Oh, I forgot, book sales. LKBaden has a book. Andrea Lyon ( who was a no name to most of us before ) has a book. Remind me to never read a thing either one of them writes.

[N2WISHN]

Thinking about tape to stop O or Q sign has raised a new question in my mind.  If in fact the tape was used as Casey found it too disturbing to see, why did she not do something to cover Caylee's eyes as well?  The eyes immediately change and would be more pronounced and haunting then O sign to anyone that has not seen them before.

I just don't see KC having all that much contact with a dead Caylee aside from stuffing her in a bag. It appears to me that the tape was placed on her before she was murdered.

After reading everything yesterday that was my conclusion, but now with these other issues being brought up, I'm more confused. I didn't know about the jaw/mouth opening like that after death.

It would seem to me that KC would at a minimum wrap the body in the blanket or something like it so that she wouldn't have to look at it.

[Grandma2Maddie]

FWIW I think the night of big fight I think little Caylee was crying due to the fight between CA and KC.  I think KC took her and killed her that night out of anger.  Like I'll teach you to be quiet.  Either Caylee was crying out of fear or she had told CA something that KC didn't want told or even crying for CA during the fight.  At that age they tell all!  As I'm sure most of you know this.  Being a grandmother of a precious girl close to the same age I can vouch for this personally. 

[leslee]

Good Morning Monkeys and Guest! Welcome to all the new Monkeys!

I have now read through the autopsy reports 3 times. I had a really hard time letting the evil of what KC did to really sink in. How any human could do that to their own child is beyond me. I have no remorse at wanting to see KC fry. My opinion is just my opinion, but I think Caylee died on the night of the 15th after the big fight. I do not think the fight had to do with the stolen money from Grandma Shirley. I feel that Caylee may have told Cindy something that day. And I don't think George saw them on the 16th as stated. The clothes he described are the same as KC described her wearing on the 9th. And it is not what was found with her little body. I don't think she was ever placed in a freezer...the food KC had was on the 27th .I think she duct taped her and put her in the trunk on the 15th. She was no where to be seen on the night of the 16th. I have seen a dead body after a few days. It is not a pretty site. Caylee weighed I think about 35 lbs. By day two she would have weighed more like 50 lbs or more in the heat. Sorry to be so graphic..but it is what it is. After 4-5 days she would not have been able to pick the body up to bag it without it erupting and having bodily fluids all over everything in close proximity. She may have been able to put it into a second bag and then the laundry hamper within the 2-3 day mark. I truely think Caylee was placed in the woods by at least the 18th. After that KC would have had a very hard time moving it out of the trunk without having a huge mess. These are JMOO. I have been known to be wrong.

Boo, glad to see you and know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.
I won't be on much for the next week but will try to catch up reading late at night. I have company coming Tuesday and my house is a disaster area from sitting here 18 hours a day. Have a great weekend.

God Bless you Caylee and hold you safe forever in His Loving Arms.

I agree. KC was at TonEs on the 16th after renting movies, did she spend the night there probably. She may have taken TonEs trash when she left on the 16th to help sheild the smell in her trunk. The neighbor Brian Burner saw her on the 17th or 18th ( did he ever nail that down?) backed into garage. I think she needed to "double bag" at that point or maybe get the canvas laundry bag. My opinion is she covered the shovel and used it as a prop to help her leverage the weight so she could get the bags on there. Remember Amy had left her duct tape in KCs car after the No clothes party? It may have been this duct tape she used in Caylee. Ponder this;
KC comes home the 15th and fight ensues, Sindy says I know what you have been up to, Caylee told me you ( fill in the blank, maybe stay home all day?). She grabs KC by the neck, KCs pissed and gets away grabs Caylee throws her in the car and takes off. Now KCs pissed cause Caylee blew her cover ( once you are no longer needed by a sociopath you become obsolete), and Caylee is upset because of the fight and won't stop crying for her "nona" which makes KC even more pissed.KC drives to a quiet place by the airport,  Enter duct tape. The amount found on Caylee was "overkill". I don't think Caylee would have lasted long with all that duct tape in a hot trunk. She gets out of the car prolly away from it so she doesn't have to "deal with" Caylees muffled crys for help and talks/texts TonE All night ( because she really doesn't want to be by herself in the middle of nowhere). I think she left her in the trunk like that, calls everyone on the 16th to be sure no one is home and goes back to get a garbage bag and Caylees comforter. Then goes back again the 17th or 18th for more,she may have used the paper towels at that point and threw them in TonEs garbage, the thc residue could be from TonEs garbage. I think she deposited the body after she had double bagged and used the laundry bag. She then may have used pesticides in her trunk to get rid of the maggots. She left TonEs garbage in there for a good reason why her car stinks so bad should anyone ask. So Caylee was put in for final resting place on the 17th or 18th. KC may have thought the smell would eventually dissapate.