Caylee Marie Anthony #138 6/18/09 - 6/21/09

[trimmonthelake]

IMO, it is not the report itself, the standard autopsy report. I don't think there was a manner of death. Cause : Homicide , Manner : Unknown.
It is Dr. G's opinion and what she based the opinion on. Just above, we have the other evidence, that the decomp fluids in the trunk indicated  2.6 days. What else was in the bag might be mentioned.
Also, maybe Dr. G said that based on the remains, how long the remains were there.

I agree.Dr.G's opinion will be interesting.

[Blink34]

Based on what excuse would it be that Casey is not required to be in open court considering Judge Strickland's previous order that she appear for all her pretrial hearings?   Hmmmm

Because it is her parents that wanted this?

Obviously, but it has everything to do with the crime she is accused of & part of her pending murder trial.   In essence, regardless who filed the motion it is considered a pretrial motion.   Its interesting because the Anthonys are claiming they had custody when in fact that is not entirely true because it was a limited custody & they went against what Casey requested in order to even have obtained that limited custody, they were never custodial grandparents prior to Caylee's murder.  Wow, wouldn't that be interesting to see how those facts play out between Casey & her parents!  They are looking to be the exception of standard procedure, millions of victims families have had to endure the cold hard facts of autopsy reports, and yes some where the defendant was facing the death penalty.   I personally do not see where they have standing, not even as "grieving grandparents."  And not for one blessed minute do I believe "Conman" that the Anthonys have not read every word contained in Dr. G's report via the defense having it.

Casey should have known better.  Give Cindy an inch and she thinks she's a ruler. 

I would like to see a civil case about this one.  Popcorn for the monkeys--I'm buying!

Capp- can you clarify how your using the word custody with regard to what I believe your referring to as Caylee's remains?  There is a major difference between custodial custody as a grandparent and POA and "guardianship of remains"  as you compare the two in your post. The only link between the two in terms of legal rights is the identity of the decedant. I just want to make sure I understand your position Madam Capp.
B

[KarmaRoundUp]

Karma needs iv coffee...stat! 


Blink...great post as always.

Bearly,they left me too. 

LOL...too late!
I'm heading for a hot shower and some So You Think You Can Dance and hopefully I'll be sleeping by the time it's over.
Good night Monkeys

[joesamas mama]

JSM~   thanks for the answer. I thought maybe they lasted a longer time for some reason. Poor baby.  Personally, I think if she was killed after the sindy blow up, that night, I think it was intentional rage. Probably suffocation. All of the slores intentional actions after that, the boyfriend shuffle, the the explanations of where Caylee was, trying to go to california, all of it, she wasn't spazzing out after an accident. She was glad to be rid of her IMO.  Evil, every last Anthony, evil, evil

Mizjay. You are so welcome. I am not a doctor, forensic expert, but I have read quite a few books on the subject. I could be totally wrong, which wouldn't be the first time. 

 I am sure her actions were intentional towards Caylee. I'm still not sure KC was going to Calif, I think she was using the Marine as a fall back guy if Tony didn't come back from NY. I may have the timeline wrong, so she could have been planning on going to Calif. JMO JSM

[Western Observr]

Monks I was asked this question on the Blinksite and figured I'd post it here before y'all get yourselves in any more trouble

The Question was what a poster thought would be shown in the autopsy report.

Boz said:
My first guess Ashley is there could be evidence of severe child abuse. Broken bones which have healed look much different than normal bones. Also, the obvious, drugs.

Blink said:

Respectfully, I think it will go the other way. The absence of trauma to a very largley recovered skeleton, negative on hair samples for drugs and a recovered fully intact hyoid bone will point to asphyxiation or drowning as likely. Which will suck for the Anthonys because she will say that it happened on their watch, and she attempted to make it look like a kidnapping and made up the Zanny story to protect them; the following PTSD ensued. Or some version thereof.
B

Blink, I haven't had time to read your newest blog post, but I think you are right. I still go with suffocation or INTENTIONAL drowning. Hyoid bone wouldn't be broken, so KC was counting on the body decomposing completely before she was found.

I'm not a smart forensic monkey, but if she were suffocated petechia would show in the eyes. Water in the lungs would be found if she was drowned along with bruising from being held down.

I think KC knew she needed the soft tissues to decompose and that is why she never came back to the house and ignored Cindy.

Whether or not Cindy and George were involved, I don't know. I don't think they had any idea until after finding the car. JMO JSM

JSM  you're kinda a medical monkey, do you think little Caylee's eyes could still be useful for making determinations of any kind ? ( so sorry, it's such a brutal subject)

Mizjay, I hate to say this but the eyes are the first thing to go during decomposition. The only thing that was left for the ME is the orbital bones (eye sockets), so the answer is no her eyes would not be of any value

When Dr G made her statement after the autopsy she said there was no soft tissue left.
She also stated there was no evidence of fractures to the bones she examined if I remember correctly.

[trimmonthelake]

Karma needs iv coffee...stat! 


Blink...great post as always.

Bearly,they left me too. 

LOL...too late!
I'm heading for a hot shower and some So You Think You Can Dance and hopefully I'll be sleeping by the time it's over.
Good night Monkeys

I hear you.If you and I both don't get some sleep tonight....tigers tomorrow.   

[joesamas mama]

Monks I was asked this question on the Blinksite and figured I'd post it here before y'all get yourselves in any more trouble

The Question was what a poster thought would be shown in the autopsy report.

Boz said:
My first guess Ashley is there could be evidence of severe child abuse. Broken bones which have healed look much different than normal bones. Also, the obvious, drugs.

Blink said:

Respectfully, I think it will go the other way. The absence of trauma to a very largley recovered skeleton, negative on hair samples for drugs and a recovered fully intact hyoid bone will point to asphyxiation or drowning as likely. Which will suck for the Anthonys because she will say that it happened on their watch, and she attempted to make it look like a kidnapping and made up the Zanny story to protect them; the following PTSD ensued. Or some version thereof.
B

Blink, I haven't had time to read your newest blog post, but I think you are right. I still go with suffocation or INTENTIONAL drowning. Hyoid bone wouldn't be broken, so KC was counting on the body decomposing completely before she was found.

I'm not a smart forensic monkey, but if she were suffocated petechia would show in the eyes. Water in the lungs would be found if she was drowned along with bruising from being held down.

I think KC knew she needed the soft tissues to decompose and that is why she never came back to the house and ignored Cindy.

Whether or not Cindy and George were involved, I don't know. I don't think they had any idea until after finding the car. JMO JSM

JSM  you're kinda a medical monkey, do you think little Caylee's eyes could still be useful for making determinations of any kind ? ( so sorry, it's such a brutal subject)

I apologize for this in advance, but I will confirm from an inside source there was NOT any soft tissue present. None.
B

Blink, that is what I was trying to inarticulately say in my post, Caylee was skeletonized, no soft tissue was left. Sorry if I didn't make sense. JSM

[Fanny Mae]

I have thought long and hard about how Caylee was murdered just like we all have. I have come to the conclusion that the duct tape was not there for "show." The cryptic heart sticker certainly was, and was placed there as an after thought, but I think the duct tape itself was the murder weapon. Caylee was probably subdued in some way either by taping her feet and legs together before she did her mouth, by giving her a little chloroform or even benedryl to put her to sleep. I feel that she was smothered with the duct tape, plainly and simply.

Casey was mad, she was furious when she left the house. She was in a rage. She knew where to go because she had gone to this same place before after a tirade at home. She had even thought of killing Caylee before. The duct tape was not just by chance in her car. This was just the night that it happened.

I don't think Tony even suspected that this had happened. But there were long conversations with Casey along with many, many text-messages. When Casey was seen walking around in a motel parking lot it could have been that she got out of the car to talk on the phone so she would not hear Caylee struggling and neither would Tony. I don't think she stayed at the motel. I think she just used a convenient place in their parking lot whenever she wanted to get away. She had done it before.

I think the murder was as simple as that. All she had to do then was just conceal and hide the body until there were no more signs of what had happened on her body. The longer she left her in the swamp, the more she thought she got away with it.

I don't think Spindy, George, or Lee knew anything about the murder at the time. They surely started getting mildly worried in the weeks thereafter, but thought Casey would get over it and bring her home again. I think she had disappeard before, as the car was probably reported stolen a year or so earlier. They were probably pretty sure that there was a "huge problem" on the day they got the car back, but it was not until the night she was laying on the floor of her bedroom crying that they knew that Caylee was really dead. It's been coverup city from then own masterminded by Spindy. JMO

[TURBOTHINK]

Capp- can you clarify how your using the word custody with regard to what I believe your referring to as Caylee's remains?  There is a major difference between custodial custody as a grandparent and POA and "guardianship of remains"  as you compare the two in your post. The only link between the two in terms of legal rights is the identity of the decedant. I just want to make sure I understand your position Madam Capp.
B

I believe that KC gave the Anthonys a limited POA to bury the remains. My opinion is they decided to have the remains cremated in order for there to be NO evidence later if new procedures became available.  If I am right, then they have NO STANDING for that motion in court. Duress is not a legal reason either.

There was so much scuttle butt about were the remains at that funeral home, where they cremated, was she going to be buried and then all of a sudden KC came out with that scathing letter about she wanted her buried. I honestly believe they went against her wishes and did that.

I will say I have wondered if there was an attempt to burn the body. There is also the issue of the pesticide residue.  To answer a question earlier, there would be no soft tissue after that length of time.

[joesamas mama]

Monks I was asked this question on the Blinksite and figured I'd post it here before y'all get yourselves in any more trouble

The Question was what a poster thought would be shown in the autopsy report.

Boz said:
My first guess Ashley is there could be evidence of severe child abuse. Broken bones which have healed look much different than normal bones. Also, the obvious, drugs.

Blink said:

Respectfully, I think it will go the other way. The absence of trauma to a very largley recovered skeleton, negative on hair samples for drugs and a recovered fully intact hyoid bone will point to asphyxiation or drowning as likely. Which will suck for the Anthonys because she will say that it happened on their watch, and she attempted to make it look like a kidnapping and made up the Zanny story to protect them; the following PTSD ensued. Or some version thereof.
B

Blink, I haven't had time to read your newest blog post, but I think you are right. I still go with suffocation or INTENTIONAL drowning. Hyoid bone wouldn't be broken, so KC was counting on the body decomposing completely before she was found.

I'm not a smart forensic monkey, but if she were suffocated petechia would show in the eyes. Water in the lungs would be found if she was drowned along with bruising from being held down.

I think KC knew she needed the soft tissues to decompose and that is why she never came back to the house and ignored Cindy.

Whether or not Cindy and George were involved, I don't know. I don't think they had any idea until after finding the car. JMO JSM

JSM  you're kinda a medical monkey, do you think little Caylee's eyes could still be useful for making determinations of any kind ? ( so sorry, it's such a brutal subject)

Mizjay, I hate to say this but the eyes are the first thing to go during decomposition. The only thing that was left for the ME is the orbital bones (eye sockets), so the answer is no her eyes would not be of any value

When Dr G made her statement after the autopsy she said there was no soft tissue left.
She also stated there was no evidence of fractures to the bones she examined if I remember correctly.

WO, that is what I was trying to tell Mizjay. There were no soft tissues to evaluate, so petechia in Caylee's eyes wouldn't have shown up in the report. Also, there were no fractures, so Caylee wasn't strangled. Had she have been, her hyoid bone would have been crushed. She could have been smothered and/or drowned. After 30 days and then 6 months in the woods, there would be no evidence of drowning and/or smothering. JMO JSM

[tupelohoney]

A friend just pointed this out to me. Don't they look an awful lot alike?

[joesamas mama]

I have thought long and hard about how Caylee was murdered just like we all have. I have come to the conclusion that the duct tape was not there for "show." The cryptic heart sticker certainly was, and was placed there as an after thought, but I think the duct tape itself was the murder weapon. Caylee was probably subdued in some way either by taping her feet and legs together before she did her mouth, by giving her a little chloroform or even benedryl to put her to sleep. I feel that she was smothered with the duct tape, plainly and simply.

Casey was mad, she was furious when she left the house. She was in a rage. She knew where to go because she had gone to this same place before after a tirade at home. She had even thought of killing Caylee before. The duct tape was not just by chance in her car. This was just the night that it happened.

I don't think Tony even suspected that this had happened. But there were long conversations with Casey along with many, many text-messages. When Casey was seen walking around in a motel parking lot it could have been that she got out of the car to talk on the phone so she would not hear Caylee struggling and neither would Tony. I don't think she stayed at the motel. I think she just used a convenient place in their parking lot whenever she wanted to get away. She had done it before.

I think the murder was as simple as that. All she had to do then was just conceal and hide the body until there were no more signs of what had happened on her body. The longer she left her in the swamp, the more she thought she got away with it.

I don't think Spindy, George, or Lee knew anything about the murder at the time. They surely started getting mildly worried in the weeks thereafter, but thought Casey would get over it and bring her home again. I think she had disappeard before, as the car was probably reported stolen a year or so earlier. They were probably pretty sure that there was a "huge problem" on the day they got the car back, but it was not until the night she was laying on the floor of her bedroom crying that they knew that Caylee was really dead. It's been coverup city from then own masterminded by Spindy. JMO

ITA

[joesamas mama]

A friend just pointed this out to me. Don't they look an awful lot alike?

Yes, I have never thought it, until now. 

[Cappuccino]

Based on what excuse would it be that Casey is not required to be in open court considering Judge Strickland's previous order that she appear for all her pretrial hearings?   Hmmmm

Because it is her parents that wanted this?

Obviously, but it has everything to do with the crime she is accused of & part of her pending murder trial.   In essence, regardless who filed the motion it is considered a pretrial motion.   Its interesting because the Anthonys are claiming they had custody when in fact that is not entirely true because it was a limited custody & they went against what Casey requested in order to even have obtained that limited custody, they were never custodial grandparents prior to Caylee's murder.  Wow, wouldn't that be interesting to see how those facts play out between Casey & her parents!  They are looking to be the exception of standard procedure, millions of victims families have had to endure the cold hard facts of autopsy reports, and yes some where the defendant was facing the death penalty.   I personally do not see where they have standing, not even as "grieving grandparents."  And not for one blessed minute do I believe "Conman" that the Anthonys have not read every word contained in Dr. G's report via the defense having it.

Casey should have known better.  Give Cindy an inch and she thinks she's a ruler. 

I would like to see a civil case about this one.  Popcorn for the monkeys--I'm buying!

Capp- can you clarify how your using the word custody with regard to what I believe your referring to as Caylee's remains?  There is a major difference between custodial custody as a grandparent and POA and "guardianship of remains"  as you compare the two in your post. The only link between the two in terms of legal rights is the identity of the decedant. I just want to make sure I understand your position Madam Capp.
B

My position is that at no such time did the Anthonys have custody of Caylee during life, therefore they never had any custodial rights.    Their POA, regarding the "guardianship of the remains" is limited to just that and only that (which they breeched the agreement according to Casey's wishes so she stated).   The fact that Cindy did not have custody during life or POA for a limited purpose or any other conditions prior to Caylee's remains being found & identified is what I am questioning  whether she had any rights whatsoever to incorporate Caylee's name, create & run a foundation in her name, handle any finances due to her namesake being attached to said foundation.  Bottom line as far as tomorrow's waste of time, they have no standing IMHO.    My post may have been a tad confusing, that should clear it up.

[SunnyinTX]

I saw the news about Boo's dad.My prayers are with her.
Blink has a new post and Klaas posted NE article.
Anything else?
I gotta find my news cart. 

Would someone re-post the Ne article please

[TURBOTHINK]

[quote author=joesamas mama link=topic=5409.msg844998#msg844998  WO, that is what I was trying to tell Mizjay. There were no soft tissues to evaluate, so petechia in Caylee's eyes wouldn't have shown up in the report. Also, there were no fractures, so Caylee wasn't strangled. Had she have been, her hyoid bone would have been crushed. She could have been smothered and/or drowned. After 30 days and then 6 months in the woods, there would be no evidence of drowning and/or smothering. JMO JSM
[/quote]

A child's  hydoid bone (os hyoideum) is flexible - even into the teen years, so even if she was strangled it most likely would not show up. FYI that is the only bone in the human body which is not attached to any other bone.

[tupelohoney]

I saw the news about Boo's dad.My prayers are with her.
Blink has a new post and Klaas posted NE article.
Anything else?
I gotta find my news cart. 

Would someone re-post the Ne article please

[TURBOTHINK]

My position is that at no such time did the Anthonys have custody of Caylee during life, therefore they never had any custodial rights.    Their POA, regarding the "guardianship of the remains" is limited to just that and only that (which they breeched the agreement according to Casey's wishes so she stated).   The fact that Cindy did not have custody during life or POA for a limited purpose or any other conditions prior to Caylee's remains being found & identified is what I am questioning  whether she had any rights whatsoever to incorporate Caylee's name, create & run a foundation in her name, handle any finances due to her namesake being attached to said foundation.  Bottom line as far as tomorrow's waste of time, they have no standing IMHO.    My post may have been a tad confusing, that should clear it up.

I agree and if they violated the terms of the LPOA if KC does get out of this, they can be prosecuted.

[Fanny Mae]

I did mean to say in my last post that her feet and HANDSwere taped. 

[joesamas mama]

[quote author=joesamas mama link=topic=5409.msg844998#msg844998  WO, that is what I was trying to tell Mizjay. There were no soft tissues to evaluate, so petechia in Caylee's eyes wouldn't have shown up in the report. Also, there were no fractures, so Caylee wasn't strangled. Had she have been, her hyoid bone would have been crushed. She could have been smothered and/or drowned. After 30 days and then 6 months in the woods, there would be no evidence of drowning and/or smothering. JMO JSM

A child's  hydoid bone (os hyoideum) is flexible - even into the teen years, so even if she was strangled it most likely would not show up. FYI that is the only bone in the human body which is not attached to any other bone.
[/quote] Thanks Turbo. I Knew I was wrong. TIA JSM