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Author Topic: Comparing The Rose Pisa Case To Melissa  (Read 11502 times)
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doubledecker
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« on: June 16, 2009, 01:10:21 AM »

It is said Melissa read up on the Rose Pisa case from Israel.  I want to go read up on that case and see why Melissa was reading on that case and did Melissa get ideas from that case.  Did she get all of her ideas from other cases she read about?  Why choose that case to read about, who would even know that case existed? was it publicised over here?  Was it on any crime forums?
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 01:14:33 AM »

hmmm googled and looks like it is rose PIZEM, not pisa.  okay, so let me go read will make notes here
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 01:19:48 AM »

Indictments postponed again in Rose Pizem murder 
 
By Roni Singer-Heruti 
 
Tags: Marie-Charlotte Renault   

The prosecution once again delayed a decision yesterday on what charges to file against Ronny Ron and Marie-Charlotte Renault over the murder of 4-year-old Rose Pizem. The main problem is lingering uncertainty over Renault's involvement in the killing.

Police believe they have gathered sufficient evidence to prove Renault, who is Rose's mother, guilty of manslaughter in court. But the prosecution doubts the police's claim and has suggested charging her with child abuse instead.

Ron, who is Rose's paternal grandfather and Renault's live-in lover, will almost certainly be charged with murder, though police say much of the evidence against him is circumstantial.

 
Prosecutors had been expected to read the charges against the two suspects in court today. Instead, however, they will merely declare their intention to indict the couple and ask the court to extend their remands.

Police recently reviewed a conversation between Renault and Ron when they were first arrested. According to a police source, Ron is heard briefing his lover on what to say during her interrogation and instructing her to tell the police that they had planned to send Rose to a local religious institute, and not to a boarding school in France, as she had previously claimed. Police say the conversation proves that Renault lied to her interrogators about her involvement in the murder.

But Renault's attorney, Revital Swid, reiterated yesterday that her client was unaware of the murder of her daughter. Ron has claimed that he accidentally killed his granddaughter while picking her up one day from her great-grandmother's house, where she spent most of her time.

Front-page news

The story became front-page news last month when police revealed that the couple from Netanya was suspected of murdering Rose because they did not want to raise her.

The girl was born in Paris in 2004 to Renault, a French Jew with relatives in Israel, and Benjamin Pizem, the child of a French mother and an Israeli father. At the age of one year, Rose made her fhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1023139.htmlirst visit to Israel. That was the first significant encounter Benjamin had ever had with his father, Ron, and the first time Marie had ever met him.

The three spent several months in Israel. At the end, Marie told Benjamin that she would not return to France with him because she had fallen in love with Ron. The couple, who never married, had two children together, and eventually received custody of Rose as well after a lengthy court battle. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 01:25:27 AM »

Ronny Ron: I didn't murder Rose


Missing four-year-old girl's grandfather, who admitted to killing her a few weeks ago, changes his testimony, says 'I did not murder her. The last time I saw her she was alive, in my mother's care'. Marie Renault: I feel like a bad mother

Raanan Ben-Zur Published:  09.09.08, 18:05 / Israel News 




Ronny Ron, the man accused of murdering his four-year-old granddaughter, Rose Pizem, changed his testimony to a claim of innocence on Tuesday, prior to his court hearing.


Main Suspect
 
Witness: Grandfather asked to enroll Rose in haredi boarding school  / Raanan Ben-Zur
 
Yeshiva director tells police Ronny Ron rejected bid for Rose's mother to convert to Judaism so child could enroll in ultra-Orthodox institution. 'I suggested enrolling her in our kindergarten, but he insisted on boarding school,' he says
Full Story
 
 
 
 

"I did not murder her. The last time I saw her she was alive, at my mother's house. Go and ask her; she's manipulative," he told reporters. "The last time I saw (Rose) she was in my mother's care."

 

He added that he had been coerced into a confession. Ron had confessed to the girl's murder several weeks ago, after being arrested in relation to her disappearance.

 

Asked why he confessed to killing Rose, Ron said "because I thought it would help my mother and the little girls. (Police) threatened that my girls would grow up to be prostitutes, become involved in drugs and be handed over to foster homes.


 

The attorney for Rose's great-grandmother, Vivien Yaakov, said of Ron's comments "Police have heard several testimonies that disprove Ron's falsified version of the events. Today it is clear that it is thanks to Vivian that an investigation was launched. She still has hopes that Rose will be found."



 

During the Ramla District Court hearing on the extension of the remand of Ron and his lover, Rose's mother Marie Renault, additional details surfaced regarding Ron's apparent efforts to cover up Rose's disappearance.


 

It was revealed that when asked by his friend Uzi where Rose was, Ron answered "she is at the French people's camp" and added that he and Marie drove her there every morning.

MY NOTE: HMMM like in FRENCH CAMP? CALI? by tracy/manteca?

 

According to Uzi, the conversation took place in July, some two months after Rose had disappeared.

 




Marie Renault brought to court (Photo: Yariv Katz)

 

Renault burst into tears after French and British reporters asked her if she missed her daughters. Asked whether she knew anything of Rose's apparent murder, the mother shook her head and asked to leave the courtroom.


 

However, when the cameramen were ordered to exit the courtroom, Renault appeared more relaxed and even smiled while talking to her attorneys.

 

During the hearing it was further revealed that letters written by Renault to Ron, which were found in her apartment, read "I am shocked by what happened to Rose. I feel like a bad mother."

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The court heard testimony from the couple's babysitter, who said that one evening apparently May 12, the day Rose disappeared - Renault and Ron returned home late and acted strangely.

 

According to the babysitter, when she inquired as to Rose's whereabouts, Ron told her she was at his mother's house. The babysitter's testimony cast further doubt on Renault's assertion that she had no prior knowledge of her daughter's disappearance.

 

The mother had previously testified that Ron had told her that Rose was at a French school.

 

The court extended Renault's remand by 10 days, and Judge Liora Frenkel said that there was reasonable suspicion that she was guilty of the crimes for which she was accused.

 

Ron's remand was also extended by 10 days.

 

Police officials stressed that Ron's claim of innocence would not change the course of the investigation and that the search for Rose in Tel Aviv's Yarkon River would continue. Ron had previously told police that he tossed a suitcase containing Rose's body into the river.


 

"Ron is still under arrest and his new version is a result of stress," one official said.

 

According to another police source, Ron "is only now beginning to understand what he got himself into and is trying to save himself, but it's too late. We have his confession and reenactment of the murder on tape.

 

"Ron said Rose died after he hit her in the car, but his testimony will have to be reviewed before an indictment is filed, although the confession and reenactment should suffice," the official said

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3594365,00.html
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 01:44:25 AM »

Slain child's grandfather: I ended Rose's life in a split second 
 
By Ofra Eidelman, Haaretz Correspondent 
 
Tags: Ronny Ron, Israel News   
 
 

A man suspected of killing his 4-year-old granddaughter last September has told investigators he ended the girl's life in a split second and has regretted the decision ever since.

Ronny Ron - who was Rose Pizem's paternal grandfather as well as her mother's live-in lover - and the child's mother Marie-Charlotte Renault, became prime suspects in her death after her body was found in a suitcase in Tel Aviv's Yarkon River.

Ron made his confessions during a taped reconstruction of Rose's murder, which was played Tuesday at the Petah Tikva District Court.
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On the tape, Ron described how Rose repeated the word "disgusting" over and over again when he gave her a wafer to eat after picking her up from his mother's house.

"I told her 'arret', French for stop," Ron said on the tape. "And then... I gave her a flick, quite hard, it struck her in the face. I didn't feel good, I understood that she was sad, angry," Ron said.

Ron said he continued to wander with Rose, wanted to buy her ice cream. A little while later, he stopped her and held her up.

"I told her: 'Don't cry, don't be insulted, father loves you'... I hugged her tight. 'Father loves you', pardon, 'I love you'."

"Oh, oh, what I wouldn't give to have not delivered that slap to my baby. To give a slap to a child, God help me, even if God forgives me and society forgives me I cannot forgive myself... I ended her life and I ended my life in a split second without thinking," Ron said.

When asked by an investigator if he had thought of calling the police or a hospital, Ron said that he had not, and added, "I was frightened by what happened, frightened out of my mind."

The tape then continued with Ron's description of his suicidal thoughts following the murder.

He and Renault wept when the tape was finished, as did many others in the courtroom.

Rose was born in Paris in 2004 to Renault, a French Jew with relatives in Israel, and Benjamin Pizem, the child of a French mother and an Israeli father. At the age of one, Rose made her first visit to Israel. That was the first significant encounter Benjamin had ever had with his father, Ron, and the first time Marie had ever met him.

 
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1088348.html

____________________

even if God forgives me and society forgives me I cannot forgive myself... I ended her life and I ended my life in a split second without thinking," Ron said

kind of like the letter, you took my life, but I forgive you

_______________

The tape then continued with Ron's description of his suicidal thoughts following the murder

suicidal thoughts after the murder, just like melissa, swallowig the razor blades
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 01:45:04 AM »

The Rose Pizem case / It can happen anywhere 
 
By Avirama Golan 
 
Tags: Israel, Rose Pizem, Crime 

The police this week had a hard time remembering a more deceiving subject of interrogation than Ronny Ron, who is suspected of killing his granddaughter Rose Pizem. Two weeks after the search at the Yarkon River began, it is no longer clear if her body was put there. Even after all the details are clarified, and if Ron's version of events that the child's mother, his wife, told him to "get rid of her" is verified, we still won't be able to come to terms with this story.

Who knows what takes place behind closed doors? Everyone will delve into the morbid gossip and extract as much as possible, but we will never be able to understand how a little girl was murdered by her family or why no one heard her whimper and saved her. Because the worst crimes - though we already know it we still find it hard to believe - take place in the family. Parents rape their children, siblings fight each other and grandparents are beaten until they bleed. This truth is so threatening to human society that we have two main ways of denial and repression.

The first is praising and celebrating motherly love. We are taught by fairy-tales and other stories that there is nothing more beautiful and pure than a mother's love. Look at the angelic images of Marie-Charlotte Renault and her daughter. Are they not the epitome of that ideal?
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Then there is the tendency to call the abusers "monsters" and search for causes: They are poor, they are foreigners, they are immigrants, and they are not "part of us." They are different.

But the naked truth is that parents, grandparents, uncles and siblings may hate their children, abuse them and even murder them. It happens everywhere among all classes and it happens to people that only yesterday seemed nice and normal.

Frustrated, the press attacks the welfare authorities and police on behalf of the public: How didn't you know? How could you be so neglectful?

When a crime is well hidden and perhaps premeditated with no one complaining, the police or welfare services cannot help. If someone is to blame or be held responsible in this case, it is the girl's family. Before the welfare services and police intervened, all they had to alert them was a hesitant letter to the National Council for the Child; a polite inquiry from a French lawyer. Now all the inattentive neighbors remember that tensions existed and that Rose was quiet and sad. 
 
________________

it can happen ANYWHERE, even tracy?
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 01:48:39 AM »

It was a red suitcase and it was "prepared"?  how prepared? I wonder when it was known there was a red suitcase ?  

Last update - 22:16 10/05/2009     
 
 
Mother, grandfather on trial for murder of 4-year-old Rose Pizem 
 
By Ofra Eidelman, Haaretz Correspondent 
 
Tags: Israel News, Murder   
 
 

The trial of the mother and grandfather alleged to have killed four-year-old Rose Pizem last year commenced Sunday morning at the Petah Tikva Magistrates Court.

Rose's grandfather Ronny Ron confessed several months ago via his defense attorney Gil Friedman to having caused her death. Friedman said that Ron accidentally caused Rose's death and had not expected it. Ron is also Rose's stepfather, as he is the live-in lover of her mother, Marie-Charlotte Renault.

According to the charges submitted in September, Ron or Renault - or both of them - placed Rose's body in a red suitcase after having caused her death. How they caused her death or where they did it is unknown. It is also unknown if Rose was alive when she was placed in the suitcase.
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The prosecutor has struggled to show the role played by the girl's mother in the murder. Revital Swaid, representing Renault, requested that the court drop the charges against her on the grounds that they do not describe any crime on her part.

Prosecutor Anna Avidov also acknowledged before the court that there was little evidence of the role played by Renault.

"What exact physical component did she play that we know of?" Avidov asked, adding that "we do not know if the accused physically carried out the act of killing."

Avidov also struggled to come up with an answer on whether Renault was present during the murder, what her own role was and whether she helped prepare the red suitcase in which Rose was found.

Pizem's body was found inside the red suitcase in the Yarkon River in September last year, four months after she was reported missing.

Rose was born in Paris in 2004 to Renault, a French Jew with relatives in Israel, and Benjamin Pizem, the child of a French mother and an Israeli father. At the age of one, Rose made her first visit to Israel. That was the first significant encounter Benjamin had ever had with his father, Ron, and the first time Marie had ever met him. 
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 01:54:13 AM »


mentioning the Bible and Isaac's sacrifice. 

Bereaved father: 'I write to you with my tears' 
 
By Christophe Dansette 
 
Tags: Benjamin Pizem, little Rose   

PARIS - "Your joy will never be forgotten," wrote Rose's father Benjamin Pizem at the funeral. The white coffin was no longer than 1.20 meters. About 100 family members and friends came to Montesson, a small suburb of Paris, to bury Rose, the little girl killed in Israel.

Part of the family met before the ceremony at the home of Betty, Rose's grandmother, who lives just next to the cemetery, to spend a little time together and to support Betty, who was still in shock. Rose's other grandmother Isabelle, Marie-Charlotte's mother, arrived a little later. Benjamin, Rose's father, his girlfriend and their little boy accompanied the coffin to the ceremony.

The funeral started on time, at 3 P.M., under a blue and sunny sky. It was led by a Catholic priest. "We are now gathered to say a last goodbye to Rose," he began his speech. "It's always difficult to bury a child before its parents," he continued, saying it was a sacrifice and mentioning the Bible and Isaac's sacrifice.
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But this was a sacrifice Rose's grandmother Betty was unwilling to accept. She wasn't able to speak, but she wrote a little poem to her grandchild, read out by the funeral's director. "I don't want to say goodbye yet," she wrote, "but I wanted to tell you how much I love you."

Rose's father, Benjamin, also had a few words for his daughter. "I write to you with my tears," he wrote. "You were a fabulous little girl. Your joy will never be lost. I am glad that you finally rest in peace, in a better world. To my beautiful little Rose, I love you, daddy." His poem was also read by the funeral's director.

Israel's government and the Israel Police were also represented. Richard Bos, the deputy director in charge of family matters at the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs gave a very short speech to assure France's solidarity with the families. And Meyer Habib, the vice-president of CRIF, the umbrella organization of French Jews, represented the country's Jewish community. "It was important for us to be here and to accompany Rose to her final resting place," he told Haaretz.

As if the little girl hadn't suffered enough, a little gust knocked over her portrait before the coffin was taken to the grave. 


http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1023464.html
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 01:58:23 AM »


it is impossible to rule out another cause, either mechanical or chemical,


Last update - 13:13 03/12/2008     
 
 
Autopsy on 4-year-old 'backs grandfather's initial confession' 
 
By Haaretz Service 
 
Tags: Israel News, Rose Pizem   

An autopsy on the body of Rose Pizem has lent weight to her grandfather's initial confession that he caused the 4-year-old girl's death in May when he slapped her across the face, Army Radio reported Wednesday.

Ronny Ron, Rose's paternal grandfather and her mother's lover, initially confessed to killing the child, then placing her body into a suitcase and throwing it into the Yarkon River.

He later recanted his confession.
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The results of the autopsy were compiled in a report, obtained by Army Radio, which stated: "The death could have been caused by intra-cranial damage such as a head injury or a slap across the face... since children's cranial bones are soft and flexible."

But the report also stated that, "It is impossible to rule out another [cause] of injury, either mechanical or chemical."

Ron is Rose's paternal grandfather and her mother Marie-Charlotte Renault's live-in lover. Both Renault and Ron have been charged with murdering the 4-year-old girl, and their trial is set to begin next week.

The story became front-page news in August when police revealed that the couple from Netanya was suspected of murdering Rose because they did not want to raise her, with Rose's mother allegedly stating she was a "difficult" child.

The girl was born in Paris in 2004 to Renault, a French Jew with relatives in Israel, and Benjamin Pizem, the child of a French mother and an Israeli father. At the age of one year, Rose made her first visit to Israel. That was the first significant encounter Benjamin had ever had with his father, Ron, and the first time Marie had ever met him.

The three spent several months in Israel. At the end, Marie told Benjamin that she would not return to France with him because she had fallen in love with his father, Ron. The couple, who never married, had two children together, and eventually received custody of Rose as well after a lengthy court battle 
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1043310.html
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 01:59:40 AM »

At the age of one, Rose made her first visit to Israel. That was the first significant encounter Benjamin had ever had with his father, Ron, and the first time Marie had ever met him. 

I wonder why?
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 02:06:03 AM »

they had located a suitcase that matched the description of the one into which Ron said he had placed Rose's body before tossing it into the Yarkon. The divers have been combing the river daily, focusing on the area under the bridge near the Dekel country club in Tel Aviv's Bavli neighborhood.

"One of our divers encountered a duffel bag that looked like what we were looking for," explained a member of the diving team. And when the divers opened the bag, they found a skull and remnants of clothes

___________________________

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020481.html
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 02:10:31 AM »

n interrogations, Ron continues to insist that he threw her body into the Yarkon River, which is extremely polluted in several areas. Police and volunteer divers are still searching for Rose's body there, despite growing doubts that it will be found.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1017832.html
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 02:12:06 AM »

What is it about this case prior to the child being killed that made MH connect with it? But you know we do not know when she researched this case. It could have been after Sandra had been kidnapped and she was trying to figure out what to do with her?

I am going to sleep now, goodnite!
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 02:22:04 AM »

One neighbor described Rose as "always looking sickly. She was solitary, barely knew how to speak or play and never smiled."

Four-year-old S., however, had a different view of the girl he described as his "best friend," recalling: "We liked to play together a lot, especially hide and seek. But she was always the one who counted," rather than the one who hid.

His father, R., who described Rose as practically a member of the family, also disagreed strongly with the first neighbor. "She was a very healthy girl happy, with wise eyes and great beauty," he said. "It's frightening to think about what could happen to her."

R. acknowledged that neither Rose nor S. had "well-developed language skills." But despite this, "it was astonishing to see how the two of them managed," he said.

"I feel bad for my little boy, who already, at such a young age, has learned what it is to lose a friend," R. added. "We're trying to explain to him what it means to 'get lost.' We tell him to stay close to us, not to go far and not to go off with strangers. We say that sometimes, you can't even know about your neighbor and his intentions."
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 02:27:04 AM »

What is it about this case prior to the child being killed that made MH connect with it? But you know we do not know when she researched this case. It could have been after Sandra had been kidnapped and she was trying to figure out what to do with her?

I am going to sleep now, goodnite!


it is strange she would find this case.  where was it published, was it on a crime forum?  or just in the news articles I am finding.  how would she even have found it?  what would she have googled?  and why?

I wonder if she was looking at other cases too, but they just mentioned this one because of the suitcase.  why spell suitcase wrong in her not?  I wonder how you spell suitcase in french or in israel? 

wonder why melissa did not put the suitcase in a river?  was she looking for a place that was POLLUTED, like in the above article?
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2009, 02:29:55 AM »

a lot more articles on this case

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:8YCdNBm7oyQJ:www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/tags/allTagArticles.jhtml%3Ftag%3Drose%2520pizem+rose+pizem+murder+israel&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2009, 02:38:43 AM »

the pastor at the funeral mentioning the Bible and Isaac's sacrifice.  

also that this girl was always sickly

did melissa get it in her head that sandra was the "scapegoat" for the sacrifice of her own sickly daughter?  she would certainly know the story of isaac and the scapegoat.  let me get the story for those of you who do not know it. 
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2009, 02:52:24 AM »

this version of the story  of abraham "sacrificing" isaac is quite long to post, so go read at this link. 

notice it is also comparing it to the sacrifice of jesus who rose on the 3rd day.  jesus rose on easter, which I had thought was suppose to happen to have sandra "surface" on easter, but everything went haywire and so she was left in the pond. 

also notice that the RAM appeared and therefore becomes the scapegoat which is sacrificed instead of isaac, his child.  and he was sacrificed at a certain place, the moutain of the lord.  on the altar. this could be why sandra was taken to the church. 

whitehall might be the road because it represents the white hall, the church. 

I know this all seems pretty "OUT THERE", but this is not the only case like this, there are several like this and I have been following these cases for several years.  This MIGHT just be another one.

here is the story of abraham and isaac

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:0LX2V9_75pEJ:www.apocalipsis.org/Abraham.htm+abraham+sacrifice+isaac&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2009, 03:03:27 AM »

now also where is the MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the LORD'S house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow into it. 3 Many people shall come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law. And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. 5 O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD." (See also Micah 4:1-5).

______________________________________

If you go just south of tracy, you will find NEW JERUSALEM.   This is why I want to see that note melissa wrote, what is the other street names.  what else does it say.  how is suitcase spelled. 

that whole area of tracy and the outskirts is all biblical to "someone" in that area.  It is "their" Jerusalm. 

I don't know if the feds understand this stuff or not but they were certainly out at 11th street searching right off and there is a reason they were out there.  Perhaps someone gave them a "clue", I don't know.  but they went North to OLD RIVER, and also south to 11th,


if we look at more of the wording it will tell a lot, but they will not release that note ugh.

okay, I am going to sleep. 


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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2009, 03:09:06 AM »

its also interesting the case she was reading about is
ROSE
and in ISRAEL

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