Caylee Marie Anthony #139 6/21/09 - 6/24/09

[mamacrazy30]

sorry ya'll.  hubbs asked if i could clean the house today, i said sure lol and have just finished the fastest home cleaning session in HISTORY!  now i can get back to monkeys

off topic!  off topic!  off topic!

[Fanny Mae]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.


DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

[Northern Rose]

Northern- can I ask your opinion on something that has been bugging me since Friday?

In your opinion, why do you think that the autopsy report does not disclose which "foot" was recovered. I would think it relevant given the post mortem fracture of the left tibia at the distal end? The jagged margin and difference in discoloration would make me think it happend shortly after death and prior to advanced decomp, no?
B

Yes those are my thoughts as well and as stated at least one thread ago the hairline fracture really bothers me.  I do not believe the fracture took place while Caylee was alive and the fracture would have been more severe (multiple fractures) as the bones dried and became more brittle.  I have spent the better part of today going over the forensics report that was released prior to map out where the bones were found (is foot in same area?) and see if somewhere there may be more clue to this as well as duct tape locations.  My first thought is that the fracture occurred as she was either trying to make Caylee fit into the hamper after full rigor had set in.  Other possibilities are a drop from a height, or banging against a solid object, or having the foot get stuck (jammed) as she was trying to lift her out of the trunk lets say and pulling her out with force.  If her feet were bound then there other possibilities.

So that fracture is not the result of force from postmortem animal chewing?  (It is so hard to think about and write...poor baby.)  Don't recall exactly, but I recall reading in one report that at least one bone end was fractured due to animal activity.  Could that be the fracture we're talking about here?  Or was that something else?

Still listening to the A's on LKL from 5/13 re whether Brad has the diary... (phone interruption, sorry)...

No, the animal activity is quantified specifically, this is a straight up post mortem fracture

I think this happened when the body was moved.

There was no note of a deformity so that can be ruled out.  We will never know if the skin was broken when the fracture occurred.  I don't remember if it was noted as being traverse.  Trunk lid slamming would also do it.

[tupelohoney]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.


DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

I'm not Desi, but he is an officer of the court, if the state asks for it he must hand it over I do believe.

[Blumonkey]

Northern- can I ask your opinion on something that has been bugging me since Friday?

In your opinion, why do you think that the autopsy report does not disclose which "foot" was recovered. I would think it relevant given the post mortem fracture of the left tibia at the distal end? The jagged margin and difference in discoloration would make me think it happend shortly after death and prior to advanced decomp, no?
B

Yes those are my thoughts as well and as stated at least one thread ago the hairline fracture really bothers me.  I do not believe the fracture took place while Caylee was alive and the fracture would have been more severe (multiple fractures) as the bones dried and became more brittle.  I have spent the better part of today going over the forensics report that was released prior to map out where the bones were found (is foot in same area?) and see if somewhere there may be more clue to this as well as duct tape locations.  My first thought is that the fracture occurred as she was either trying to make Caylee fit into the hamper after full rigor had set in.  Other possibilities are a drop from a height, or banging against a solid object, or having the foot get stuck (jammed) as she was trying to lift her out of the trunk lets say and pulling her out with force.  If her feet were bound then there other possibilities.

So that fracture is not the result of force from postmortem animal chewing?  (It is so hard to think about and write...poor baby.)  Don't recall exactly, but I recall reading in one report that at least one bone end was fractured due to animal activity.  Could that be the fracture we're talking about here?  Or was that something else?

Still listening to the A's on LKL from 5/13 re whether Brad has the diary... (phone interruption, sorry)...

No, the animal activity is quantified specifically, this is a straight up post mortem fracture

I think this happened when the body was moved.

Like maybe when she crammed her into the laundry basket, the blankity blank blank skank.

Verry well put.

[mamacrazy30]

Good Evening Monkeys - I am in the previous cage catching up but I have wondered about the diary entry and if it is an entry from 03 could the Slore be referring to her having had an abortion?  "I hope the end justifies the means....."  and that might shed some light on why Sindy said while on the phone with 911 "I am not losing another one?"  Just a thought. 

JSM you are a hoot - you have your own thread - I look forward to reading there in a bit. 

ok, i'm gonna do math here..if casey is 23 in 09 then she would have been 17 at the time.  wouldn't she need cyn's permission?  and if indeed thats what she's talking about, then why not do the same while preggers with Caylee.  she was of age and if she hadn't wanted her (kiomarie statement) why not just do it?  she didn't need permission and nobody had to know.

this was an initial thought of mine when the Dairy first came about- i did research Florida Abortion Laws- under 18 must have parental signatures-  but, this has never stopped IT from forging signatures before.  If this diary is truly important, I am confident they will get someone to date the ink, and hand writting if needed

lets not forget there was no baby for the first 7 months - it was a tumor.

casey would have to have had sex if she was pregnant - cindy anthony
i swear after this trial is over i'm gonna' write a book that is just all of their crazy logic quotes.

[Fanny Mae]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.


DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

I'm not Desi, but he is an officer of the court, if the state asks for it he must hand it over I do believe.

Thank you.   

[Desdemona]

Northern- can I ask your opinion on something that has been bugging me since Friday?

In your opinion, why do you think that the autopsy report does not disclose which "foot" was recovered. I would think it relevant given the post mortem fracture of the left tibia at the distal end? The jagged margin and difference in discoloration would make me think it happend shortly after death and prior to advanced decomp, no?
B

Yes those are my thoughts as well and as stated at least one thread ago the hairline fracture really bothers me.  I do not believe the fracture took place while Caylee was alive and the fracture would have been more severe (multiple fractures) as the bones dried and became more brittle.  I have spent the better part of today going over the forensics report that was released prior to map out where the bones were found (is foot in same area?) and see if somewhere there may be more clue to this as well as duct tape locations.  My first thought is that the fracture occurred as she was either trying to make Caylee fit into the hamper after full rigor had set in.  Other possibilities are a drop from a height, or banging against a solid object, or having the foot get stuck (jammed) as she was trying to lift her out of the trunk lets say and pulling her out with force.  If her feet were bound then there other possibilities.

http://books.google.com/books?id=woO2VdztOtgC&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=distal+metaphysis+tibia+in+toddlers&source=bl&ots=P2P7uwKUk6&sig=8OfqJn4i_ElXs4BFKv8hVgysN6Y&hl=en&ei=H_U-So2FGYq_twf0rOAN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
Fractures of the Distal Tibial Metaphysis, from Pediatric Fractures and Dislocations.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801867/detail.html
Why isn't the left tibia listed in the bone measurements table?

How do we know it is a hairline fracture?  What is meant by "ragged end" in the autopsy report?

[always 1]

The reason I ask about (throglossal duct cyst) is because did you know the surgery for this is sometimes removal of the little bone in the neck which is missing in Caylee. 

[Fanny Mae]

hello monkeys
warning!!! it is gross!!!
long time ago my grandma told me that when she was a kid (looong time ago) she went to a funeral and she saw the body sitting and trow up, sorry it is gross, but she told me that long time ago the bodies did not have the same treatment(chemicals) that the bodies have now before funeral. Can be possible that Casey saw caylee doing that and duct taped her to be sure will not happen again...? sorry guys

Some people have thought that Casey might have put tape over her mouth to contain the body fluids as she was decomposing. She is sure to have done it before decompositon had really set in.

[Blink34]

Northern- can I ask your opinion on something that has been bugging me since Friday?

In your opinion, why do you think that the autopsy report does not disclose which "foot" was recovered. I would think it relevant given the post mortem fracture of the left tibia at the distal end? The jagged margin and difference in discoloration would make me think it happend shortly after death and prior to advanced decomp, no?
B

That is also my opinion, but that might change if I knew if the "foot" was missing from the left tibia.
B
Yes those are my thoughts as well and as stated at least one thread ago the hairline fracture really bothers me.  I do not believe the fracture took place while Caylee was alive and the fracture would have been more severe (multiple fractures) as the bones dried and became more brittle.  I have spent the better part of today going over the forensics report that was released prior to map out where the bones were found (is foot in same area?) and see if somewhere there may be more clue to this as well as duct tape locations.  My first thought is that the fracture occurred as she was either trying to make Caylee fit into the hamper after full rigor had set in.  Other possibilities are a drop from a height, or banging against a solid object, or having the foot get stuck (jammed) as she was trying to lift her out of the trunk lets say and pulling her out with force.  If her feet were bound then there other possibilities.

So that fracture is not the result of force from postmortem animal chewing?  (It is so hard to think about and write...poor baby.)  Don't recall exactly, but I recall reading in one report that at least one bone end was fractured due to animal activity.  Could that be the fracture we're talking about here?  Or was that something else?

Still listening to the A's on LKL from 5/13 re whether Brad has the diary... (phone interruption, sorry)...

No, the animal activity is quantified specifically, this is a straight up post mortem fracture

I think this happened when the body was moved.

[Desdemona]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.
DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

I'm not Desi, but he is an officer of the court, if the state asks for it he must hand it over I do believe.

Thank you.   

  I'm not Fanny, but yeah, I do think a subpoena would take care of that.  Thanks, Tupelo. 

That was a good question, Fanny.  Why would he specify "If the DEFENSE wants it?"

[always 1]

But we would have known if Caylee had had this done, because she has not had surgery.  (Lordy, I am talking to myself)

[Fanny Mae]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.
DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

I'm not Desi, but he is an officer of the court, if the state asks for it he must hand it over I do believe.

Thank you.   

  I'm not Fanny, but yeah, I do think a subpoena would take care of that.  Thanks, Tupelo. 

That was a good question, Fanny.  Why would he specify "If the DEFENSE wants it?"

Probably because Spindy would throw him out of his wheelchair if he dared to try to give it to the prosecution. 

[mamacrazy30]

hello monkeys
warning!!! it is gross!!!
long time ago my grandma told me that when she was a kid (looong time ago) she went to a funeral and she saw the body sitting and trow up, sorry it is gross, but she told me that long time ago the bodies did not have the same treatment(chemicals) that the bodies have now before funeral. Can be possible that Casey saw caylee doing that and duct taped her to be sure will not happen again...? sorry guys

wow...getting a mental image.  i worked in a nursing home for a few years and saw a few people pass, it can be messy depending on how long we had to wait until they were picked up, but i've never seen That!  are ya sure grandma wasn't pulling your leg?

[Blumonkey]

But we would have known if Caylee had had this done, because she has not had surgery.  (Lordy, I am talking to myself)

You are correct,A1. The hyoid bone is sometimes removed to remove this cyst,but according to all envolved, Caylee had never been sick and mentioned no surgeries.

[FLGrammy]

Snipped>
KING: Will you turn it over to a forensic expert?

CONWAY: Absolutely. It's in my state of keeping as an officer of the court. If the defense wants it, it's theirs.
DESI, Do you think this means if the proscecution wanted the journal that he could refuse to hand it over??

I'm not Desi, but he is an officer of the court, if the state asks for it he must hand it over I do believe.

Thank you.   

  I'm not Fanny, but yeah, I do think a subpoena would take care of that.  Thanks, Tupelo. 

That was a good question, Fanny.  Why would he specify "If the DEFENSE wants it?"

Probably because Spindy would throw him out of his wheelchair if he dared to try to give it to the prosecution. 

I think she may have already done this once... remember when Brad couldn't make it to court b/c he hurt his back?

[tupelohoney]

With the medical privacy laws, can Caylee's pediatrician  be called to testify?

[flossy]

Wow, I take a nap and all the good discussion starts. I am not a neurologist but I have cared  for many infants who have had craniosynostosis in the Peds ICU. They are usually caught between 4 and 8 months and while the brain is growing. Parents are told to expect a perfectly normal course of growth and development. We had one neuro doc who told them" in time their body will grow into their head." There are 5 sutures in the cranium. Sutures are not bone but rather the fiber-like material that hold the bony plates together. Only one was found to be" in the beginning stages of premature synostosis." Surgery is not done in this case due to the lack of symptomology. We know Caylee was developing normally. She could sing "you are my sunshine" and read "supper time for Freeda Fuzzypaws." The only reason this was found was the fact that she was skeletonized.(I hate to say that.) The pictures you see on the net of these children with deformities are
either happen in utero or have not had medical treatment early.
How will the defense use this ? I have a theory but don't want to bore you with an anatomy discourse. 

I am a Neurosurgical RN and I agree.
When you examine bodies you find a lot of abnormalities or anomalies.  They do not necessarily mean a thing unless they can be correlated with symptoms and history.

Thanks,WO.  Most of the time I feel like I am talking to myself.

I agree with both of you - and not even just as a nurse.  As a patient, most doctors will tell you that abnormalities mean nada unless and until you're symptomatic.  They're interesting, of course, but often don't mean anything.

[Desdemona]

Wow, I take a nap and all the good discussion starts. I am not a neurologist but I have cared  for many infants who have had craniosynostosis in the Peds ICU. They are usually caught between 4 and 8 months and while the brain is growing. Parents are told to expect a perfectly normal course of growth and development. We had one neuro doc who told them" in time their body will grow into their head." There are 5 sutures in the cranium. Sutures are not bone but rather the fiber-like material that hold the bony plates together. Only one was found to be" in the beginning stages of premature synostosis." Surgery is not done in this case due to the lack of symptomology. We know Caylee was developing normally. She could sing "you are my sunshine" and read "supper time for Freeda Fuzzypaws." The only reason this was found was the fact that she was skeletonized.(I hate to say that.) The pictures you see on the net of these children with deformities are
either happen in utero or have not had medical treatment early.

Blumonkey = Desi's hero tonight!   
Thank you so much!  That is what I thought!  Sub-clinical or something like that.  Because all the stuff we were finding was gross deformity and surgical correction. I was thinking since she was already nearly three and looked/acted normal it must be something very minor that would never have come to light if she had not been autopsied.  Thank you, thank you so much for this knowledgeable explanation!

The other confusion I had was that I saw the word "incest" on one search result, and the word "incest" on another... so I thought there was some kind of correlation, but never saw that stated.  Know anything about this?  Incidence or contributing factors or whatever the scientific/medical terminology is?  Anyway, thank you so much for clearing that up!  I was feeling so confused about my perception of it.
How will the defense use this ? I have a theory but don't want to bore you with an anatomy discourse.