Caylee Marie Anthony #139 6/21/09 - 6/24/09

[Fanny Mae]

I've been looking at the phone records/cell tower pings from this site  http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p6Pnw95vqOo-MgZ7Vsp9pYg&gid=7

It appears that Cindy called Casey from home at 5:06 pm and there was a little over 3 min. call. Most likely Cindy said come home we need to talk.

The next time Casey used her phone was at 7:06 pm to text Tony.

So I am assuming that that was the time frame that Casey and Cindy had their altercation.

From 7:06 pm Casey was on the phone all night with Tony.

From what I can tell Casey was in the area of her home on 6/16 around 1:00 and shortly after 4:00.  There was a flurry of calls shortly after 4:00 also.

Casey may have smothered Caylee with the duct tape the evening of the 15, possibly within that 2 hour window frame between 5 and 7 pm.

Or she may have killed her at the house on the 16th between 1:00 and 1:44 as there is a 44 minute lapse in phone activity after she made a call at 1:00. I'm leaning towards this as the day, place and time of death, due to the access of duct tape/trash bags from the house.     (Yes I have changed my mind for the last time as far as the duct tape being the cause of death and not to prevent purge fluids!)   Either way, Caylee was bagged on the 16th and placed in the trunk.

Then Brian Burner loans a shovel and Casey's car is backed into the garage on the 18/19th. This is when I think that Caylee was again bagged and placed in the laundry hamper. This also fits with the 2.6 days of decomposition in her trunk. I believe she dumped Caylee's body shortly after this. I don't think Caylee was in the trunk when George wanted to get into the trunk that day of the 24th. I think Casey was trying to keep him from the smell.

Of course, this is just my thoughts and opinions.

I'm glad you used that spread sheet. I had to look for two days straight to find it again.

I agree with everything except the time of death. I think Casey was in a rage the night before on the 15th. This seems more like a rage killing to me, and that would have been the time for it, when her adrenalin was really flowing. jmo

[Western Observr]

I don't think you miss anything Fanny!   
Klaas has a new byline under her avatar. 

I thought it was interesting that the forensic expert for the defense said he didn't see the body with any duct tape on it. I'm wondering how he can conclude it might not be murder if he never saw that.

Since I won't watch Geraldo, did I read that right that Dr Baden suggested the funeral guy put the duct tape on? Wow, he better have something to back that accusation up.   

There's no way they can get away with that.   I'm sure the crime scene photos will prove that false.     

There seems to be a special breed of person that works for criminal defense in these horrible crimes.  They are all under the impression that a Jury is likely to be as stupid as they are-  if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck,hatched out of a duck egg,   they would like to think the Jury will accept it was just an accident that it got that way...   

[Western Observr]

Thanks Klaas.

I have a question for you smart monkeys.    Is it legal for notes to be passed from KC to C&G and vice versa through Baez?  I thought all notes/letters had to go through the jail personnel.     

During this interview, Conway again states that they are in contact with each other through letters.

There is nothing privileged about her letters from family- they have to be screened by Jail Personnel coming in and going out.
Is Baez delivering them? I hope so, that will be the basis for yet another Bar complaint.
I have always thought that Baez takes his laptop in for them to telecommunicate on Skype or similar.  There is NO way Cindy has kept her mouth shut all this time..

[Sassycat]

There's no way they can get away with that.   I'm sure the crime scene photos will prove that false.     

There seems to be a special breed of person that works for criminal defense in these horrible crimes.  They are all under the impression that a Jury is likely to be as stupid as they are-  if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck,hatched out of a duck egg,   they would like to think the Jury will accept it was just an accident that it got that way...   

I could never do this work.  I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, and I don't love money that much.   

Justice for Caylee!

[crazybabyborg]

Dr. Baden said on Geraldo that funeral homes sometimes wrap cloth around the head to keep the mouth from opening. I took his point being that the duct tape could have been placed to keep Caylee's mouth from opening after she had died.

That's where the defense is going IMO. Illegal disposal of a body is not such a big deal legally; certainly not anything like murder. I also think it's the weakest link in th prosecution's case. What exactly do they have to prove that Caylee didn't die accidently and that Casey simple illegally disposed of the body? If that's all the prosecution can prove, then they are short of the bar for conviction of murder one. I think it's very possible, and IMO, the smartest thing the defense could do, to just admit Casey illegally disposed of the body after Caylee died accidentally.

1. Why would she do that?
2. Why lie about it?
3. How could she party hardy with the knowledge her daughter is dead?
4. Why did she search means of death?

Casey's behavior is enough for me, but I do wish there was some supporting forensic evidence of murder. A jury can convict her of being a selfish, stupid, cold, biotch, but it doesn't prove she's a premeditated murderer.

Sticking to the ZG story hurts her case, IMO, so I'm all for them staying the course on that one! 

[Western Observr]

TRIMM, I didn't use the Witless News Cart last night. You may need to call it in stolen. 

If I never heard the term premature synostosis again, it will be too soon for me. Just sayin'........

Me too!
Unfortunately that is the kind of irrelevant morsel the defense will grab at and try to confuse the jury-  if you can't blind them with science try and baffle them with b****hit is the way they work.
So many trials have got bogged down with scientific evidence ( think #1 O.J. trial) that the Jury can't possible sort it out and errs on the side of caution.
That is what the defense tries to do.  Make just one juror question.....

[Sassycat]

Thanks Klaas.

I have a question for you smart monkeys.    Is it legal for notes to be passed from KC to C&G and vice versa through Baez?  I thought all notes/letters had to go through the jail personnel.     

During this interview, Conway again states that they are in contact with each other through letters.

There is nothing privileged about her letters from family- they have to be screened by Jail Personnel coming in and going out.
Is Baez delivering them? I hope so, that will be the basis for yet another Bar complaint.
I have always thought that Baez takes his laptop in for them to telecommunicate on Skype or similar.  There is NO way Cindy has kept her mouth shut all this time..

Thanks for answering WO.    I seriously doubt Baez would let the jail personnel see the notes - so I hope another complaint is filed.   

Here's another question - Is Conway telling the truth when he states they are communicating through letters?   Would Baez really allow KC to write C&G letters that may later bite her in the azz?    For some reason, I think Conway might be lying.  JMO.

[Western Observr]

Dr. Baden said on Geraldo that funeral homes sometimes wrap cloth around the head to keep the mouth from opening. I took his point being that the duct tape could have been placed to keep Caylee's mouth from opening after she had died.

That's where the defense is going IMO. Illegal disposal of a body is not such a big deal legally; certainly not anything like murder. I also think it's the weakest link in th prosecution's case. What exactly do they have to prove that Caylee didn't die accidently and that Casey simple illegally disposed of the body? If that's all the prosecution can prove, then they are short of the bar for conviction of murder one. I think it's very possible, and IMO, the smartest thing the defense could do, to just admit Casey illegally disposed of the body after Caylee died accidentally.

1. Why would she do that?
2. Why lie about it?
3. How could she party hardy with the knowledge her daughter is dead?
4. Why did she search means of death?

Casey's behavior is enough for me, but I do wish there was some supporting forensic evidence of murder. A jury can convict her of being a selfish, stupid, cold, biotch, but it doesn't prove she's a premeditated murderer.

Sticking to the ZG story hurts her case, IMO, so I'm all for them staying the course on that one! 

It is normal to put a 'sling' under the chin and over the top of the head to stop the mouth from opening.  That has nothing to do with many layers of duct tape over the mouth and nose. He gets more despicable each time he's on.  Is there NOTHING these people will not say for fame and money?

[A_News_Junkie_Monkey]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/jq85357311428244/

Craniosynostosis is a little known organic factor in sociopathy. This factor should be among those taken into consideration in selecting patients to undergo craniotomy. Among 22 000 skulls of neuropsychiatric patients, there were 100 with premature coronal synostosis, compared with 57 with dolichocephaly. Thirty-seven of the 100 patients with coronal synostosis exhibited disorders of social adaptation; frontal cortex functions are assumed to be involved. There were 34 cases of mental deficiency, 21 case of psychosis, 13 of cerebral vascular disease, 10 cases of epilepsy, 4 of acrocephalosyndactyly, 3 of decompensation by slight craniocerebral trauma, and 1 case of ependymoma of the IV ventricle. Dolichocephalic patients exhibited a stronger tendency towards depressivc states and cerebral vascular disease. The risks of cosmetic impairment and resulting psychosocial problems are discussed; especially in girls with oxy- and scaphocephaly craniofacial correction, is indicated, as it is also in patients with Saethre-Chotzen syndrome. In cases of premature synostosis of the coronal suture or synostosis of several sutures for carrying out a craniotomy, it is advisable to employ a combination of orbito-frontosphenoidal osteotomy for extension of the anterior cranial fossa. Craniosynostosis is a risk factor which, depending on the individual case and the sex and age of the patient, can impair central nervous functions, social adaption, and the blood supply of the brain.
Key words  Craniosynostosis - Frontal lobe dysfunctions - Personality disorders - Cosmetic impairment - Indications for craniotomy - Craniosynostosis syndrome

Turbo - I had to pop in to say you are on the path I was.  This is actually one of the links I had saved!  There are several things that need to be ruled out if justice is truly going to happen.

Blue monkey - I commend you for your reading skills, I think you too see where my concerns were.

I honestly was more interested in the ethical debate on the forum but I guess just asking the question did cause the desire for Pandora's box to be opened.  My intent was not to bait or be right or any other such agenda and I thank those who have wrote me offline who saw that.  The goal of the legal system, our courts is justice.  Truth is the impetus to justice.  However, often the legal wrangling gets in the way of justice and while our system is good, it has its drawbacks in obtaining its goal.  I do think that if any medical conditions can be addressed, then fair discussion of their merits can be given to a jury assigned to this most daunting of tasks. 
Again, best to all and hugs to those who have shown kindness to me offline.

[Western Observr]

I've been looking at the phone records/cell tower pings from this site  http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p6Pnw95vqOo-MgZ7Vsp9pYg&gid=7

It appears that Cindy called Casey from home at 5:06 pm and there was a little over 3 min. call. Most likely Cindy said come home we need to talk.

The next time Casey used her phone was at 7:06 pm to text Tony.

So I am assuming that that was the time frame that Casey and Cindy had their altercation.

From 7:06 pm Casey was on the phone all night with Tony.

From what I can tell Casey was in the area of her home on 6/16 around 1:00 and shortly after 4:00.  There was a flurry of calls shortly after 4:00 also.

Casey may have smothered Caylee with the duct tape the evening of the 15, possibly within that 2 hour window frame between 5 and 7 pm.

Or she may have killed her at the house on the 16th between 1:00 and 1:44 as there is a 44 minute lapse in phone activity after she made a call at 1:00. I'm leaning towards this as the day, place and time of death, due to the access of duct tape/trash bags from the house.     (Yes I have changed my mind for the last time as far as the duct tape being the cause of death and not to prevent purge fluids!)   Either way, Caylee was bagged on the 16th and placed in the trunk.

Then Brian Burner loans a shovel and Casey's car is backed into the garage on the 18/19th. This is when I think that Caylee was again bagged and placed in the laundry hamper. This also fits with the 2.6 days of decomposition in her trunk. I believe she dumped Caylee's body shortly after this. I don't think Caylee was in the trunk when George wanted to get into the trunk that day of the 24th. I think Casey was trying to keep him from the smell.

Of course, this is just my thoughts and opinions.

I'm glad you used that spread sheet. I had to look for two days straight to find it again.

I agree with everything except the time of death. I think Casey was in a rage the night before on the 15th. This seems more like a rage killing to me, and that would have been the time for it, when her adrenalin was really flowing. jmo

And not just your everyday rage. This was years of pent up rage and vicious vicious contempt for her mother.  Poor Caylee being helpless, took the full force of her anger.

[crazybabyborg]

Dr. Baden said on Geraldo that funeral homes sometimes wrap cloth around the head to keep the mouth from opening. I took his point being that the duct tape could have been placed to keep Caylee's mouth from opening after she had died.

That's where the defense is going IMO. Illegal disposal of a body is not such a big deal legally; certainly not anything like murder. I also think it's the weakest link in th prosecution's case. What exactly do they have to prove that Caylee didn't die accidently and that Casey simple illegally disposed of the body? If that's all the prosecution can prove, then they are short of the bar for conviction of murder one. I think it's very possible, and IMO, the smartest thing the defense could do, to just admit Casey illegally disposed of the body after Caylee died accidentally.

1. Why would she do that?
2. Why lie about it?
3. How could she party hardy with the knowledge her daughter is dead?
4. Why did she search means of death?

Casey's behavior is enough for me, but I do wish there was some supporting forensic evidence of murder. A jury can convict her of being a selfish, stupid, cold, biotch, but it doesn't prove she's a premeditated murderer.

Sticking to the ZG story hurts her case, IMO, so I'm all for them staying the course on that one! 

It is normal to put a 'sling' under the chin and over the top of the head to stop the mouth from opening.  That has nothing to do with many layers of duct tape over the mouth and nose. He gets more despicable each time he's on.  Is there NOTHING these people will not say for fame and money?

I agree! I have a problem with him offering his comments at all on this case because of his relationship to LKB. He kept muttering "I don't know anything particular about the case, but.........." 
Yeah, right! 

[Jesse]

Interesting that the defense forensics expert said that the autopsy report doesn't prove there was a murder.   OK AZZHOLE - how did Caylee die then?   Did she just go into the woods and put duct tape on herself.   I hate those scumbags.  I hope they all rot in hell. 
*************************
this would be laughable if it wasnt so sad...they must think a jury is stupid...the one thing that always leaves an impression on jurors is that Casey was the last one to see Caylee alive, plus all the lies...please...there is no other person who killed Caylee

[no rose colored glasses]

Dr. Baden said on Geraldo that funeral homes sometimes wrap cloth around the head to keep the mouth from opening. I took his point being that the duct tape could have been placed to keep Caylee's mouth from opening after she had died.

That's where the defense is going IMO. Illegal disposal of a body is not such a big deal legally; certainly not anything like murder. I also think it's the weakest link in th prosecution's case. What exactly do they have to prove that Caylee didn't die accidently and that Casey simple illegally disposed of the body? If that's all the prosecution can prove, then they are short of the bar for conviction of murder one. I think it's very possible, and IMO, the smartest thing the defense could do, to just admit Casey illegally disposed of the body after Caylee died accidentally.

1. Why would she do that?
2. Why lie about it?
3. How could she party hardy with the knowledge her daughter is dead?
4. Why did she search means of death?

Casey's behavior is enough for me, but I do wish there was some supporting forensic evidence of murder. A jury can convict her of being a selfish, stupid, cold, biotch, but it doesn't prove she's a premeditated murderer.

Sticking to the ZG story hurts her case, IMO, so I'm all for them staying the course on that one! 

That is what I have been thinking, and you put it down in words, I totally agree with you.

[Miki Monkey]

Good Morning Monkeys 

I have a question, and I hate to bore you with this old stuff again, but I can't find a real answer. If KC spent from the 9th June 08 - 16th June 08 staying at Tony's without Caylee, (this according to Tony) who was looking after her between these dates.? Was it G&C ? because I thought KC told them she was out of town visiting friends, or is it still unknown who had her or what she did with her. ?

[crazybabyborg]

Interesting that the defense forensics expert said that the autopsy report doesn't prove there was a murder.   OK AZZHOLE - how did Caylee die then?   Did she just go into the woods and put duct tape on herself.   I hate those scumbags.  I hope they all rot in hell. 
*************************
this would be laughable if it wasnt so sad...they must think a jury is stupid...the one thing that always leaves an impression on jurors is that Casey was the last one to see Caylee alive, plus all the lies...please...there is no other person who killed Caylee

It's so obvious to us all, and I'm praying that EACH jury member will have a good dose of common sense. It only takes one to be in left field somewhere.

My bet is that the defense will spend a tremendous amount of time, money, and effort in selecting a jury. That effort will make or break everything, IMO. I keep remembering OJ, and his verdict was a done deal from the point a jury was selected. The defense knew their strategy, and they successfully looked for jurors who would buy it. I wonder what profile they are looking for?

They'll do study groups, I'm sure of that!

[karenmamo]

Good Evening Monkeys - I am in the previous cage catching up but I have wondered about the diary entry and if it is an entry from 03 could the Slore be referring to her having had an abortion?  "I hope the end justifies the means....."  and that might shed some light on why Sindy said while on the phone with 911 "I am not losing another one?"  Just a thought. 

JSM you are a hoot - you have your own thread - I look forward to reading there in a bit. 

ok, i'm gonna do math here..if casey is 23 in 09 then she would have been 17 at the time.  wouldn't she need cyn's permission?  and if indeed thats what she's talking about, then why not do the same while preggers with Caylee.  she was of age and if she hadn't wanted her (kiomarie statement) why not just do it?  she didn't need permission and nobody had to know.

I too have wondered about this situation and that comment. My 'feeling' about why Caylee was not aborted early on is that kc was under such tight control via Cindy that kc made very few decisions on her own. CA may have been IN every aspect of KC's life. I read a book not long ago about emotional incest and I suspect this of Cindy and her daughter.
(I was raised by a mother who was similar to Cindy in that way) By the time most daughters are 17 they have started the process of autonomy.  I do not think kc was that free. That process needs to proceed in steps.  It seems to me that kc just took a giant leap at 22 and was in no way prepared for the consequences.
If you are familiar with covert incest, you may have read such books as Silently Seduced.(Kenneth M. Adams)
It seems quite likely to me that this was the relationship between CA and her daughter.
If this makes no sense it is because it is yet early for this old brain AND my perspective is a bit jaded due to my own upbringing.

[Missiontoconvict]

Interesting that the defense forensics expert said that the autopsy report doesn't prove there was a murder.   OK AZZHOLE - how did Caylee die then?   Did she just go into the woods and put duct tape on herself.   I hate those scumbags.  I hope they all rot in hell.     

Thank you for posting this Sassy - I was on my way to post the same sentiment. 

I have to believe the photos will show the skull with the duct tape wrapped around it when they discovered even though the lying scumbag Dr for the defense says he didn't see any duct tape.  This gets my blood boiling once again.

[karenmamo]

Did any of you Monkeys have contact with Cindy's brother Rick when he was on various forums? I was thinking he would be a good place to start to see if Casey had this condition and had treatment for it.

I was reading things he was posting on Topix. But if Casey or Lee had some physical or mental malady I doubt if Cindy would tell anyone. She wouldn't want anyone to know her kids had problems, at least that's what I think.

Yes, yes, yes. EVERYTHING was kept rolled up really tight in that family. Cindy controlled all info.

[Western Observr]

One thing's for sure. Nancy will have field day with this report tonight! 

[no rose colored glasses]

Interesting that the defense forensics expert said that the autopsy report doesn't prove there was a murder.   OK AZZHOLE - how did Caylee die then?   Did she just go into the woods and put duct tape on herself.   I hate those scumbags.  I hope they all rot in hell. 
*************************
this would be laughable if it wasnt so sad...they must think a jury is stupid...the one thing that always leaves an impression on jurors is that Casey was the last one to see Caylee alive, plus all the lies...please...there is no other person who killed Caylee

It's so obvious to us all, and I'm praying that EACH jury member will have a good dose of common sense. It only takes one to be in left field somewhere.

My bet is that the defense will spend a tremendous amount of time, money, and effort in selecting a jury. That effort will make or break everything, IMO. I keep remembering OJ, and his verdict was a done deal from the point a jury was selected. The defense knew their strategy, and they successfully looked for jurors who would buy it. I wonder what profile they are looking for?

They'll do study groups, I'm sure of that!

Bet on it, the jury consultants will have a field day. These high profile cases are nothing short of a travesty of justice to me. This case has spun so out of control, good luck reeling it in. You need one juror with an agenda, and all the money, hours, extensive work means nothing. I've really wondered about justice, many times the victim never gets justice, because of all this bs, that I don't believe for a second was ever intended to be like. The system needs a good revamping, and lets start with jury instructions, please make it understandable to the average person, that might help some.