Natalee Case Discussion #822 7/28/09 - 8/13/09

[jen3560]

TxMom - why does that flyer look like Merryweather's kids stuff to me? 

[Tamikosmom]

Check out
Shield Group NV
http://www.arubachamber.com/registry/registry_result.afp?KeyValue=36301

Oh holy mother...........

So GEERMAN, EDGARD does Network Security for DOMPIG?!?!?!?!?!?

So Dompig left the Polis to start a Security(Disinformation)Company?

ARUBAN CONNECTION - SPECULATION

DOMPIG AND SATISH OR DEEPAK OR MICHAEL ?  GEERMAN

Think of a detective who certainly knew more than he was telling, and think of his computer network security guy.....then read Kyle's words.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS[/b]

Kyle Kingman: Just before Christmas they are contacted by a detective and his brother who gave them information that turned out to be the correct latitude

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.  He claimed that his brother had a vision about Natalee¢s body offshore and had coordinates. He and his brother agreed to meet on the Persistence. The detective¢s brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Kyle Kingman:  IF a keydetective's brother knew the latitude the trap was disposed at or very near, then it's probable the detective knew the same.

Kyle Kingman:  The detective and his brother were both brown-skinned, but not black.

Kyle Kingman:  the detective was very internet and computer savy, which was unusual for the bulk of the Polis.

Kyle Kingman:  It seemed he knew who I was when we were introduced, and said something indicating he had been reading the blog.

Kyle Kingman:  The brother of the detective came to us and was very persistent over the information. He was almost in tears and just had to "clear his conscience" about it.  His brother, the detective came with him to 'validate him'.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.  Basically, by using his brother and claiming the information he shared was only based on a vision, it distances the detective from responsibility and makes it hard to point back to him should it be a problem later.

Kyle Kingman:  However, this man was intelligent enough, cared about the case, yet was self implicated to a high enough level to want to be kept his knowledge a secret. He spoke well enough english and knew everything in my opinion.

Kyle Kingman:  The implications of this are tremendous. If true, it means that the early investigators knew where and how Natalee was disposed and it was kept secret and covered up.

Kyle Kingman:  Since the trap was only in 90ft of water and the detective knew about the latitude, did the Polis already know if it's location prior to the search?

Kyle Kingman:   The tip Dave got said the trap was 2-3 miles offshore. I found this one 2-3 miles offshore. 2.1-2.2 miles if memory serves.

Kyle Kingman:  The detective originally wouldn't meet with us and only wanted us to meet with his brother. We convinced him to meet along with his brother and made him feel as comfortable as possible. He reluctantly agreed but wouldn't talk.

Kyle Kingman:  After a while the detective started asking some questions and loosened up a bit. With the pointed questions he asked he proved he knew a lot, but we didn't press him

Kyle Kingman:  "Here's a shocker: the confession from one of the former suspects I was refering to was NOT Joran.


++++++++


DOMPIG: - SEARCH THE OCEAN

FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007

TIM MILLER: ... Gerold Dompig actually told us when Dave and I was over there; that he felt that Natalee was out in the water, that the night the fishermen's hut was broken into, a knife was stolen, a rope was stolen and a large crab trap was stolen.

Gerold Dompig's words were "Natalee was put in that crab trap, they put rocks in it and they took her out 3 to 5 miles and she's 800 to 1,000 feet deep" and we always thought about the water anyhow.


CORRUPTION IN PARADISE - DAVE HOLLOWAY

Page 167/168:  We had recently gotten another tip that the boys did do something to Natalee and that they either left her at the boat launch or the lighthouse.  From there, they supposedly went to a field area where the gardener saw them while they planned their next move.  According to the tip, after that, they went home and returned the next day to the fishermen's huts to get a steel cage to put Natalee into; they then used a boat to carry her about two to three miles out into the ocean and drop her there.  The tip was sent in an e-mail, and we forwarded it to Dompig.  He claimed that was one of the reasons to search at sea now instead of at the landfill ...


GEROLD DOMPIG AND FRED GOLBA

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for March 15
updated 9:08 a.m. PT, Thurs., March. 16, 2006

COSBY:  You know, Steve, we‘ve had Tim Miller from EquuSearch, all these different guys on there.  They were all sort of turned down by Dompig and it seemed like the Aruban government, of course, the chief of police there.  Why this team? 

STEVE COHEN, SPECIAL ADVISER TO ARUBAN GOVERNMENT:  Well, it‘s a process, of course, that goes back to the Forensic Institute of Holland.  Chief Dompig has been back there twice now. 

And I think what was happening was a determination of just exactly what techniques, in terms of specificity, could one investigator bring to bear versus another? And, of course, Dompig and Fred have established a strong rapport and a great deal of trust between them, and that‘s why he is there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11857796/

Mine in red....

Jen ... when Kyle Kingman's own words are considered regards ... a Dutch guy would not fit into a DOMPIG AND GEERMAN theory.

Janet

[jen3560]

Janet - possibly not.  But also keep in mind the possibility of dual heritage (Dutch father, mother of a different nationality?)

[jen3560]

Janet,

Also keep in mind the probablilty/possibility of two different "witnesses".

One that got the latitude/longitude for the cage.

And one that was Cap's "witness" about the pond.

The one Kyle mentioned above was with regard to the cage.

Yes, it could be the same person for both - but it could also be two different people.

??

[texasmom]

TxMom - why does that flyer look like Merryweather's kids stuff to me? 

It is Jen.  Philip Merryweather (son of Herbert...grandson of John) is advertising another showing of all his "pets", but this time it's not free like before.  I copied the new Chamber Registry for Philip's Pet Collection information below the ad.  Guess he cleared that up so he could charge an entrance fee. 

[jen3560]

Janet,

Also keep in mind the probablilty/possibility of two different "witnesses".

One that got the latitude/longitude for the cage.

And one that was Cap's "witness" about the pond.

The one Kyle mentioned above was with regard to the cage.

Yes, it could be the same person for both - but it could also be two different people.

??

And this is my bad, Janet.  I was getting ahead of myself when I adjusted your post yesterday.

I've thought for a while that both "witnesses" could be the same person.  But I hadn't previously expanded on that. 

[jen3560]

TxMom - why does that flyer look like Merryweather's kids stuff to me? 

It is Jen.  Philip Merryweather (son of Herbert...grandson of John) is advertising another showing of all his "pets", but this time it's not free like before.  I copied the new Chamber Registry for Philip's Pet Collection information below the ad.  Guess he cleared that up so he could charge an entrance fee. 

Yes - I saw that.............after I posted here 

Funny to see that he registered the business, but is still not in posession of a license. 

[texasmom]

jdsurveyor1 Newbie Posts: 11
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount.  So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world. The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found her I don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg334979#msg334979


IMO, Rob Smith would have more than likely needed the approval of the Board of Directors of AHATA to approach the hoteliers, etc. in order to raise a sizeable amount of money to donate to the Persistence search.  He was fairly new in the position of CEO of AHATA (only since October 1, 2007).  Although he was not new to the organization, I don't think he would have made that move without agreement from the Board of Directors.

IMO, based on media comments by Minister of Tourism Edison Briesen; he was probably very irritated at the Perisistence presence for over three months in Aruba which was in the news.  I don't think he would have contributed to any effort that would have continued their presence and the daily reminder of what they were supposed to be there for.  I just don't see him approving a sizable donation; if he did there would have also been a press conference to announce it to the world.  

JMO

Who else might they have been referring to?

Do we think they ever got a sizable donation?  I have serious doubts about that.  Again, jmo.

I look at this just a bit differently than you do, TxMom.

First - I agree with you about Smith not being the one to give the OK for forking over cash to Silvetti.  I've thought all along that was Breisen.

Now - think about your feelings regarding Breisen being irritated with them being there.  Now think of what "hush money" is.  Shut up and go away, is what that usually means in my book.

And then look at their sudden, and abrupt departure from Aruba.  Right on the heels of them asking for donations from the public.

I saw this earlier jen, was looking for something that I wanted to add to my response..but have been sidetracked a few times!

I have been thinking about this a lot.  You, Anna, Janet, and others have made very good points regarding it.  I hope it's not true, but I have not ruled it out as a possibility.

[Magnolia]

Jen ... is GEERMAN Aruban or Dutch?  What is his age?

Thanks

Janet

+++++

KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Kyle Kingman:  The detective and his brother were both brown-skinned, but not black.

BUMPED

JEEEEEEEN!!!

I have no clue Janet.  Since Jossy said he's known him for quite some time, I would guess that means he's not some young kid.

Everybody born on Aruba is considered Dutch, whatever their heritage.

How did Caps know where to dive when he said that he dove down and the cage was still in place?

[Kermit]

PICTURE OF WYNDHAM AND THE BIRD SANCTUARY





SEE THE WYNDHAM AND HOW CLOSE IT IS TO THE BIRD SANCTUARY


posted by Klassend

[Tamikosmom]

Janet - possibly not.  But also keep in mind the possibility of dual heritage (Dutch father, mother of a different nationality?)

That's a possibility.

Somewhat O/T.

Considering all the friendships and mixed marriages that have been revealed between the Dutch and the Arubans ... even in Mark Purcell's family ... I do not consider the Dutch for the most part as  racists.  However ... I do think that there is an social economic class distinction on and off that Island in regard to the Dutch.

Janet

+++++


Was race a factor in Aruba arrests?
Answer depends on nationality, culture
By Christy Oglesby
CNN
Wednesday, June 15, 2005 Posted: 7:23 PM EDT (2323 GMT)

CNN) -- The last people to see Natalee Holloway on the night she disappeared in Aruba were the white teenage son of a local judge and two middle-class young men of Surinamese descent, according to local police.

Within days of when Holloway was last seen in the early hours of May 30, Aruban police arrested two black security guards who worked at a hotel near where she was staying.

One question swirling around the investigation was whether police initially targeted the security guards -- who were released without charges eight days later -- as suspects at least in part because of their race or class.

Views on that question depend on who is speaking and on what may be differing cultural frames of reference for people living in Aruba and in the United States.

Police have not said why or how they identified the guards, Abraham Jones, 28, and Mickey John, 30, as suspects.

But apparently they were led to them based on the words of three young men who were the last people reported seen with Holloway the night she disappeared.

The men reportedly told police they took her to a beach after leaving an Oranjestad nightclub and not long afterward returned her to her hotel, the Holiday Inn.

Two of the men, brothers Satish Kalpoe, 18, and Depak Kalpoe, 21, reportedly described Holloway as stumbling on the way into the hotel, possibly as a result of alcohol, and that a "dark-colored" man in a black T-shirt with a radio helped her, according to police statements.

They said their friend, Joran Van Der Sloot, 17, the son of an Aruban judge, was with them when they dropped her off. Police allowed all three to go after initial questioning.

Jones and John were released Monday. The Kalpoe brothers and Van Der Sloot were arrested last Thursday and remain in custody without charges. Their attorneys maintain the men are innocent.

After his release, John told reporters Depak Kalpoe confided to him while they were in jail together that he had lied to police. John said Kalpoe also apologized for getting him and Jones into "that mess."

"He [Depak] told me that the story about dropping the girl off at the Holiday Inn was all made up," John said.

Not long after they were arrested June 5, the mother of Mickey John told CNN why she thought her son and his co-worker were detained.

"The problem is, and I will say it plain, they have a color question in Aruba." Ann John said.

Alvin Cornet, one of the suspect's cousins, implied the reason was socioeconomic, saying their arrest was "on something about money-wise -- who is rich and who is poor."

Some Americans might have had a sense of déjà vu as they watched two black men being taken into custody while the three young men remained free.

Take the case of Susan Smith, who in 1994 claimed a black man kidnapped her toddler sons but was later convicted of drowning them herself.

Or that of Charles Stuart, who committed suicide in 1990 after stoking simmering racial tensions in Boston, Massachusetts, by claiming a black man shot his pregnant wife.

Jennifer Wilbanks tried to cover up the reason for running away from her April wedding by concocting a story that a Latino man and a white woman kidnapped her.

Frankie Bailey, a criminal justice professor at the State University of New York at Albany, said such reaction is common in America "because of the history of race in this country, and because historically, black males, Hispanic males, males of color, have been seen as the typical assailant."

Law enforcement in the United States, however, is becoming more savvy, said Bailey, who specializes in crime and culture, particularly racial attitudes.

"People have become more cynical about believing the stories because there have been these racial hoaxes in recent memory and because the media have reported on it," Bailey said.

"So police and other officials are being more cautious in terms of how they approach this."

"In Aruba, I don't know what the situation is there, but it was interesting that these young men could tell the story, and that it was believable ... and that people did act on the story that they were telling," Bailey said.

Julia Renfro, editor of Aruba Today, an island newspaper, said her publication received more than 200 e-mails from Americans after police arrested John and Jones.

"These horrible e-mails, just horrible," Renfro said. "They were from both blacks and whites from there in the United States, only the United States, criticizing Aruba and how they planned to never set foot on Aruba ever again ... because of the cruelty against these two security guards, how it was so obvious to anyone around the world ... that this was discrimination."

Renfro, a white American who has lived in Aruba for 15 years and is the mother of biracial children, said racial profiling does not have the same foothold on the island nation that it does in the United States.

"Aruba's colorblind," she said of the nation heavily dependent on the tourism industry.

"Interracial ... is not a word we would use here," she continued. "It doesn't exist. Most of the marriages are mixed. All of the children are mixed. Nobody can say I'm black, I'm white."

She insisted the reasons behind the guards' arrest had nothing to do with race.

"Locally there was never even a mention or a breath of concern that this was a racial issue nor a status issue," Renfro said.

As for Ann John's comments, they came from a mother grasping for an answer, Renfro said.

"What she's saying is there has to be a reason because she knows her son was not there," Renfro said.

"You just have to come up with something, because there really, really is no differentiation between the blacks and the whites here and the browns. ... Nobody gets preference in that regard."

Renfro said police arrested the black guards "because the three boys pointed their fingers at these two security guards, and they couldn't leave that out of the loop. There was no reason to believe the boys were lying."

As for the guards' release Monday, "The boys changed their story," she said. "So there's no reason to hold them anymore."

Noriana Pietersz, Mickey John's lawyer, said she did not believe race played a role in her client's arrest, and she said locals did not make that assumption.

"The people locally were surprised that after [police briefly detained] the three persons last seen with her, they finish [by] coming up with a detention of two security guards," Pietersz said.

"People thought that they should have focused the investigation on the three persons that were last seen with Natalee," Pietersz said.

"As an intelligent person, I refuse to believe that the racial issue is penetrated in our judicial system."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/15/aruba.arrests/index.html


   

[jen3560]

jdsurveyor1 Newbie Posts: 11
John Silvetti, the Persistence and the Search for Natalee «
Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »

The important thing is to raise funds. It will require corporate support as well as private donations. Dave and Beth have been doing a great job getting the word out and while I was on the island, Dave put me in contact with the head of the Hotel Association who is working on raising a sizeable amount.  So many on the island are supporting our efforts as well as people from all over the world. The media really blew the cage out of proportion. Although the cage initially provided some moments of "what is in there", I warned all on board that none of this information was to leave the boat. It was very suspect that a cage of this size was found where it was on the seafloor relative to the coast. My feelings were this was highly unusual and probably had something to do with something, but not what we were after. It was decided that the cage would be investigated further by divers, however, it was designated as only a target of interest. The crew moved onto other targets. Unfortunately, inexperience and frustration led to premature statements, including that we had found her I don't think anyone was more upset than I that this information came off the boat and caused the Holloway family more grief!

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg334979#msg334979


IMO, Rob Smith would have more than likely needed the approval of the Board of Directors of AHATA to approach the hoteliers, etc. in order to raise a sizeable amount of money to donate to the Persistence search.  He was fairly new in the position of CEO of AHATA (only since October 1, 2007).  Although he was not new to the organization, I don't think he would have made that move without agreement from the Board of Directors.

IMO, based on media comments by Minister of Tourism Edison Briesen; he was probably very irritated at the Perisistence presence for over three months in Aruba which was in the news.  I don't think he would have contributed to any effort that would have continued their presence and the daily reminder of what they were supposed to be there for.  I just don't see him approving a sizable donation; if he did there would have also been a press conference to announce it to the world.  

JMO

Who else might they have been referring to?

Do we think they ever got a sizable donation?  I have serious doubts about that.  Again, jmo.

I look at this just a bit differently than you do, TxMom.

First - I agree with you about Smith not being the one to give the OK for forking over cash to Silvetti.  I've thought all along that was Breisen.

Now - think about your feelings regarding Breisen being irritated with them being there.  Now think of what "hush money" is.  Shut up and go away, is what that usually means in my book.

And then look at their sudden, and abrupt departure from Aruba.  Right on the heels of them asking for donations from the public.

I saw this earlier jen, was looking for something that I wanted to add to my response..but have been sidetracked a few times!

I have been thinking about this a lot.  You, Anna, Janet, and others have made very good points regarding it.  I hope it's not true, but I have not ruled it out as a possibility.

Just from the pack up and get outta Dodge standpoint alone - this scenario, unfortunately, makes the most sense to me.

[Magnolia]

Hey Kermit,
Why are we looking at the bird sanctuary?

[Kermit]

CAPS HAS 4 COMPUTERS:
My brain cell + 4 Computers are thinking in all possible scenarios,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2539.120

[Kermit]

Hey Kermit,
Why are we looking at the bird sanctuary?

Bulbai Sports Club.

[klaasend]

The bird sactuary was one of the areas that they really didn't search well due to getting stuck in the mud.  It would be a perfect place to dispose of a body, IMO. 

[Kermit]

The bird sactuary was one of the areas that they really didn't search well due to getting stuck in the mud.  It would be a perfect place to dispose of a body, IMO. 

One of the most telling things that indicates Joran did go to this area is:
Deepak called Joran and Joran said he was near the Wyndham
Then Joran was back at the Racquet Club where he says he left his bag & put on sandals to walk to the Marriott to look for his tennis shoes.

[Tamikosmom]

The bird sactuary was one of the areas that they really didn't search well due to getting stuck in the mud.  It would be a perfect place to dispose of a body, IMO. 

But Natalee's body would have to be retrieved from all that muck if it was place in a trap and ... taken out to sea?

 

What am I not comprehending about this dialogue?

Janet

[Kermit]

[Kermit]

ABOUT THE WITNESS
 
Caps witness was a person that lived on Aruba and had a family there. Caps knew this witness for about 3 1/2 years He said he lived in a house on the road where the pond is.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3332.msg445163#msg445163


witness house