Lively Case Discussion #489 7/8 - 7/9/2006

[JuJu]

just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

[klaasend]

just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

Sounds very possible to me.  Would explain the VDS residence and the rocks.

[San]

I have to go do some errands. Before I go, I have a question.

From what I've read, Beth feels strongly that Natalee was alive at the VDS residence at some point. The phone call with the sound of the monkey in the background points to that.

However, there was all the suspicious activity with the rock painting.

Does anyone have a theory that would account for Natalee being alive at the VDS residence and bleeding at the painted rocks?

Thanks!

This is just my theory but I feel once Natalee did make this phone all plans changed.  I feel either Joran went bezerk and killed her because she mess up the plans or she started fighting her attack and someone hit her in the head with an object.  As someone stated head injuries have a lot of blood.  The rock area was either a place to dump her bloody body or like I said above where she was placed while they waited for a boat to dispose of her body.

[JuJu]

there is also the possibility that J2K decided to have a little fun before they got rid of her, they raped her at the rocks and blood and DNA could be found there.  That poor baby, only God knows what they did to her.

[the big hammer]

Not Pool, But Rocks...

So the headmaster indicates "rocks"...hhmmm.

To sharon's point earlier and then replies by I believe Anna: my interpretation of original question/input posed by sharon suggests that possibly there may be more veracity attached to the earliest statements attributed to the three and those around them.

I believe this is valid.  Within the first hours after the crime (assume approx 4:00am May 30), and assuming that pvds engaged to mastermind coverup and alibi manufacture, the attention of those involved would have been focused on hiding/disposal and maintaining as normal a routine as possible.  This suggests to me that poolside strategy session w/ "family" (as mentioned by Mickey Johns upon release) likely happened at earliest on afternoon of May 30 -- AFTER jvds returns from school (presuming he was there at all).

This narrow window of time, when jvds was away from sloot residence and presumably deepak and satish are home (or maybe deepak works daytime shift at Cyberzone) offers an opportunity.  That opportunity is that they are apart and telling stories about previous nite WITHOUT the benefit of pvds alibi advice.

It is this time window that may provide a better view on what might have actually happened because no one had yet set the first alibi in place.  

What we do know is that by time HT family arrives at sloot house at approx 2:00am on May 31 -- that jvds and deepak were telling a completely different tale than "beach and rocks" (which is what jvds is reportedly saying just hours earlier among his classmates).  It is at this time they set the HI drop off lie in motion.  And they hung on to this lie for days and days -- it provided basis for arrest of Jones & Johns on June 5, and even to point of having Croes show up after the 3 arrested to corroborate the HI drop off lie, AFTER June 9.

It would be important too to learn at what point in time exactly did story switch from HI drop off to leaving Natalee on beach.

[San]

just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

This is a good theory.  The one question that comes to mind for me is that how did all the blood get in Deepak's car.  Did they then kill her and take her back to the VDS residence in a panic to get Paulus help.

[BTgirl]

just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

Sounds very possible to me.  Would explain the VDS residence and the rocks.

That makes sense to me too, but I have one more question. If she got hurt when she got out of the car at the rocks, how do we account for the large amount of blood that was reportedly inside Deepak's car? If she was already injured when they took her to the rocks and she bled inside Deepak's car, wouldn't she have to have been conscious and able to run around in order to get blood on that many rocks?

How do we account for her bleeding both inside the car and on the rocks outside the car?

[JuJu]

How much blood was found in the car?  I didn't know if that was true or not.

[Leslie]

Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
Diario (what happened to Friday, July 7th edition?)
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Solo Di Pueblo has not been updated recently
http://tinyurl.com/k3fcv

[klaasend]

Not Pool, But Rocks...

So the headmaster indicates "rocks"...hhmmm.

To sharon's point earlier and then replies by I believe Anna: my interpretation of original question/input posed by sharon suggests that possibly there may be more veracity attached to the earliest statements attributed to the three and those around them.

I believe this is valid.  Within the first hours after the crime (assume approx 4:00am May 30), and assuming that pvds engaged to mastermind coverup and alibi manufacture, the attention of those involved would have been focused on hiding/disposal and maintaining as normal a routine as possible.  This suggests to me that poolside strategy session w/ "family" (as mentioned by Mickey Johns upon release) likely happened at earliest on afternoon of May 30 -- AFTER jvds returns from school (presuming he was there at all).

This narrow window of time, when jvds was away from sloot residence and presumably deepak and satish are home (or maybe deepak works daytime shift at Cyberzone) offers an opportunity.  That opportunity is that they are apart and telling stories about previous nite WITHOUT the benefit of pvds alibi advice.

It is this time window that may provide a better view on what might have actually happened because no one had yet set the first alibi in place.  

What we do know is that by time HT family arrives at sloot house at approx 2:00am on May 31 -- that jvds and deepak were telling a completely different tale than "beach and rocks" (which is what jvds is reportedly saying just hours earlier among his classmates).  It is at this time they set the HI drop off lie in motion.  And they hung on to this lie for days and days -- it provided basis for arrest of Jones & Johns on June 5, and even to point of having Croes show up after the 3 arrested to corroborate the HI drop off lie, AFTER June 9.

It would be important too to learn at what point in time exactly did story switch from HI drop off to leaving Natalee on beach.

JK2 were arrested on June 9th and at that time were tellling the HI drop off story.  On June 17th Steve Croes was arrested.  He was arrested because he had come in the day before to cooberate the HI drop off story but by then ALE knew it was already a lie.  Some time between June 9th and June 16th the story change.  I'll try to find out when.  It was probably durring interrigations because very early on ALE knew the cameras didn't show Natalee being dropped off.  They knew that prior to the security guards were arrested.

[San]

JK2 were arrested on June 9th and at that time were tellling the HI drop off story.  On June 17th Steve Croes was arrested.  He was arrested because he had come in the day before to cooberate the HI drop off story but by then ALE knew it was already a lie.  Some time between June 9th and June 16th the story change.  I'll try to find out when.  It was probably durring interrigations because very early on ALE knew the cameras didn't show Natalee being dropped off.  They knew that prior to the security guards were arrested.

It was also said that Joran changed his story three times before it matched the Kalpoes.

[JuJu]

another thought.......maybe the sharks were the people in a game at the VDS home. (Paulus & buddies).  If she were raped by several different individuals there, I am sure she would have some injuries, even if she was just trying to fight thme off.

[Kat_Gram]

just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

Sounds very possible to me.  Would explain the VDS residence and the rocks.

That makes sense to me too, but I have one more question. If she got hurt when she got out of the car at the rocks, how do we account for the large amount of blood that was reportedly inside Deepak's car? If she was already injured when they took her to the rocks and she bled inside Deepak's car, wouldn't she have to have been conscious and able to run around in order to get blood on that many rocks?

How do we account for her bleeding both inside the car and on the rocks outside the car?

The " rocks " by the pool at the VDS house. If they were there at all.
The placement of that rock whatever it is poolside a tthe VDS place looks
strange to me. Like a speed bump. You can usually run all around a pool.
There are alot of buildings on that property. We reaaly don't know. I still have a hard time with them going to the house seeing Paulus was there.

[BTgirl]

How much blood was found in the car?  I didn't know if that was true or not.

Wasn't it someone with the FBI who reported to Beth/Dave that due to the amount of blood in the car they had concluded that Natalee was dead?

Can somebody help me out here?  Y'all know I'm old.

[San]

How much blood was found in the car?  I didn't know if that was true or not.

I don't remember how much blood was found I only remember the statement that there was blood all over Deepak's car (which I believe the FBI stated).  Later on Aruba said it was chocolate after they sent it for testing .

[San]

How much blood was found in the car?  I didn't know if that was true or not.

Wasn't it someone with the FBI who reported to Beth/Dave that due to the amount of blood in the car they had concluded that Natalee was dead?

Can somebody help me out here?  Y'all know I'm old.

I believe you are right BT and you are not old.

[JuJu]

What were the original charges against PVDS?

[klaasend]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170678,00.html

(snipped)
TWITTY: Because I think I was asking questions that she didn’t know that I knew about, things that she wouldn’t tell me and I was confronting her with, you know, things like the blood in the car. If you’ll remember, way early on in the investigation, even the prime minister came and said, Yes, they found blood in the car. The FBI said they found blood in the car. She says they didn’t. She says they — I know for a fact that they cut parts out of the seat, cut parts out of the ceiling of Deepak’s car, and they sent them wherever to get tested. And she said no. Initially, the FBI said there was blood all over the car, but then they came back and said now it’s cleaning fluid. And I went ballistic in the meeting. And you know, there are a lot of other things that I went ballistic on because she’s so vague on everything that she tells you. You know, here’s a perfect example, when she hasn’t communicated with Beth in a month. So another...  (snipped)

[BTgirl]

How much blood was found in the car?  I didn't know if that was true or not.

Wasn't it someone with the FBI who reported to Beth/Dave that due to the amount of blood in the car they had concluded that Natalee was dead?

Can somebody help me out here?  Y'all know I'm old.

I believe you are right BT and you are not old.

Thanks San!

[BTgirl]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170678,00.html

(snipped)
TWITTY: Because I think I was asking questions that she didn’t know that I knew about, things that she wouldn’t tell me and I was confronting her with, you know, things like the blood in the car. If you’ll remember, way early on in the investigation, even the prime minister came and said, Yes, they found blood in the car. The FBI said they found blood in the car. She says they didn’t. She says they — I know for a fact that they cut parts out of the seat, cut parts out of the ceiling of Deepak’s car, and they sent them wherever to get tested. And she said no. Initially, the FBI said there was blood all over the car, but then they came back and said now it’s cleaning fluid. And I went ballistic in the meeting. And you know, there are a lot of other things that I went ballistic on because she’s so vague on everything that she tells you. You know, here’s a perfect example, when she hasn’t communicated with Beth in a month. So another...  (snipped)

Thanks Klaas. I was pretty sure it was the FBI, but wanted to check.