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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #489 7/8 - 7/9/2006  (Read 123752 times)
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beachwego
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« Reply #200 on: July 08, 2006, 11:09:37 AM »

Quote from: "BTgirl"
Quote from: "klaasend"
Quote from: "JuJu"
just throwing this out there.........if J2K had taken her to Paulus at the VDS House (not the apartment) after he finished with her she was going in and out of consciousness, he instructed the boys to dump her at some place they had used 20 times before.  She came to, in the car and got the door opened and fell out.  They ran her down and hit her with the car, she was injured but was able to get up and was trying to run from them and she was trying to hide in the area of the rocks.  THIS IS JUST A THEORY!!  Trying to think outside the box...

Sounds very possible to me.  Would explain the VDS residence and the rocks.


That makes sense to me too, but I have one more question. If she got hurt when she got out of the car at the rocks, how do we account for the large amount of blood that was reportedly inside Deepak's car? If she was already injured when they took her to the rocks and she bled inside Deepak's car, wouldn't she have to have been conscious and able to run around in order to get blood on that many rocks?

How do we account for her bleeding both inside the car and on the rocks outside the car?


Perhaps on the way to be dropped off (alive) in the vicinity of the lighthouse after she was raped, videotaped at the VDS house, she managed to get the phone call off (seems to fit the time frame) while still in the car.  When she was discovered with the phone, someone (most likely Joran) hit her across the head strong enough to cause a spurting blood wound (wasnt the blood on the ceiling as well as the seat).   She then managed to exit the car, running towards the rocks, with the car right after her.  Possibly she was hit by the car while they were tracking her down and then was savagely beaten by an enraged Joran at the rock area.

Horrible, horrible thoughts but it is what I have imagined for a long time...everything seems to fit within this theory.   Crying or Very sad
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JuJu
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« Reply #201 on: July 08, 2006, 11:17:38 AM »

me too beach, have not been able to put it out there till now.  It is so disturbing.
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Shizaru
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« Reply #202 on: July 08, 2006, 11:17:46 AM »

Any theory that has all 3 present when she was injured or died isn't viable.  It's clear from the polis car tapes that at least one member of the trio doesn't know what happened to her.  If they all knew and none of them suspected they were being taped, there would have been no reason for them to all act like they didn't know.  And if 2 or 3 of them knew and one of those 2 or 3  suspected they were being taped, he would have said something to alert the other(s), so they didn't say anything incriminating.    

I think what happened was either:
a) Joran alone was present when he raped and killed her
b) First Joran alone was present when he raped her, then D and/or S alone were present when they raped and killed her
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BTgirl
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« Reply #203 on: July 08, 2006, 11:18:28 AM »

Quote from: "beachwego"

Perhaps on the way to be dropped off (alive) in the vicinity of the lighthouse after she was raped, videotaped at the VDS house, she managed to get the phone call off (seems to fit the time frame) while still in the car.  When she was discovered with the phone, someone (most likely Joran) hit her across the head strong enough to cause a spurting blood wound (wasnt the blood on the ceiling as well as the seat).   She then managed to exit the car, running towards the rocks, with the car right after her.  Possibly she was hit by the car while they were tracking her down and then was savagely beaten by an enraged Joran at the rock area.

Horrible, horrible thoughts but it is what I have imagined for a long time...everything seems to fit within this theory.   Crying or Very sad


That's a sound theory, Beachy. It would seem to account for everything, especially if Natalee made the call as they were leaving the VDS residence and that's why Beth heard the monkey in the background.
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sharon
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« Reply #204 on: July 08, 2006, 11:19:19 AM »

Thank you Hammer.

And there are supposedly NO statements from that night in the vds driveway. Or they are incomplete. Charles Croes was there -- yet I have not heard him repeat this.

And we have seen no statements by the boys themselves (interviews, police transcripts, emails) saying this about hitting her head. Of course, we have not seen any statements by Satish. Question

We have heard a reference to a conversation with the headmaster -- with a slightly different story already the next morning (from jvds). I'd love to see the headmasters statement to ALE (if he gave one).

To me -- it places a lot more importance on this lie. And the timing. IMO.

That's all I was trying to get at. I didn't express that very well.

Have a great day Monkeys. Justice for Natalee.
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BTgirl
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« Reply #205 on: July 08, 2006, 11:21:23 AM »

One thing I meant to add - if Natalee was bleeding and escaped from the car, she would probably have blood on her hands. If she were trying to negotiate her way around the rocks and holding on to them, that might account for some of the odd places they painted the rocks. The paint was to cover her blood left there as she scrambled amongst the rocks while trying to escape. Crying or Very sad
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San
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« Reply #206 on: July 08, 2006, 11:21:39 AM »

Quote from: "JuJu"
What were the original charges against PVDS?

One of them was suspicion of premeditated murder.
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BTgirl
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« Reply #207 on: July 08, 2006, 11:22:24 AM »

Quote from: "sharon"
Thank you Hammer.

And there are supposedly NO statements from that night in the vds driveway. Or they are incomplete. Charles Croes was there -- yet I have not heard him repeat this.

And we have seen no statements by the boys themselves (interviews, police transcripts, emails) saying this about hitting her head. Of course, we have not seen any statements by Satish. Question

We have heard a reference to a conversation with the headmaster -- with a slightly different story already the next morning (from jvds). I'd love to see the headmasters statement to ALE (if he gave one).

To me -- it places a lot more importance on this lie. And the timing. IMO.

That's all I was trying to get at. I didn't express that very well.

Have a great day Monkeys. Justice for Natalee.


You have a great day too, Sharon.
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JuJu
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« Reply #208 on: July 08, 2006, 11:24:54 AM »

The call could have been made when they took her to PVDS & Buds and was going to leave her there.  Joran could have taken her into the house and told her to stay there that they would be back.....hense...I don't know these people...
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San
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« Reply #209 on: July 08, 2006, 11:26:12 AM »

Quote from: "BTgirl"
One thing I meant to add - if Natalee was bleeding and escaped from the car, she would probably have blood on her hands. If she were trying to negotiate her way around the rocks and holding on to them, that might account for some of the odd places they painted the rocks. The paint was to cover her blood left there as she scrambled amongst the rocks while trying to escape. Crying or Very sad

Is there where Guido Weaver comes into play for his Heavy Battery charge near the rocks.  Was Natalee severly injured at the VDS residence and did Guido help his friend Joran finish the job near the rocks.
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oldfart
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« Reply #210 on: July 08, 2006, 11:27:16 AM »

Good day Monkeys Smile

Just scanning to see  what is going on..  
I sent some ?'s to Dana (noticed that thread had not been updated).

Klaasend  FWIW   it seems that the HI story changed after MaMa visited Joran in jail. Confused
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It is NOT over !!! If you believe good prevails and that the truth comes forward then justice will be handed out.  I want answers!
the big hammer
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« Reply #211 on: July 08, 2006, 11:27:36 AM »

Earliest Statements: More Veracity?

Yes sharon.

This is certainly worth a look.  Anything they said PRIOR to meeting HT family in sloot driveway area at about 2:00am on 5/31 has, at this point, a reasonable chance at being more accurate than most of what they said since then.  Because it was at this point they launched the complete fabrication and lie of HI drop off and this timing likely PRECEEDED poolside strategy session w/ pvds.

They were on their own among their friends/classmates, etc for a very brief window of time, attempting to engage normal routine, but they were WITHOUT benefit of pvds alibi manufacturing, and direction on what to say/not say.

ANd that is why early talk of rock and head is important -- particularly headmaster of ISA.  And others too, as posted by klaas a few minutes ago.
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JuJu
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« Reply #212 on: July 08, 2006, 11:27:54 AM »

What battery charge?


Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "BTgirl"
One thing I meant to add - if Natalee was bleeding and escaped from the car, she would probably have blood on her hands. If she were trying to negotiate her way around the rocks and holding on to them, that might account for some of the odd places they painted the rocks. The paint was to cover her blood left there as she scrambled amongst the rocks while trying to escape. Crying or Very sad

Is there where Guido Weaver comes into play for his Heavy Battery charge near the rocks.  Was Natalee severly injured at the VDS residence and did Guido help his friend Joran finish the job near the rocks.
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Ono
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« Reply #213 on: July 08, 2006, 11:29:51 AM »

Quote from: "Tylergal"
Quote from: "Sue"
If Deepaks cell was out of minutes where was Joran calling to get a ride at 2am to 3 am or 4 am when ever he got home


His cell was not out of minutes.  That's their tale.  Want to see mine?  There was no reason to say that except for cover.  They interjected too much superfluous information meant to fool the public and that seemed to have worked.


I agree..Another useless (but telling) embroidering.

Good Morning All ~
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beachwego
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« Reply #214 on: July 08, 2006, 11:29:58 AM »

Quote from: "BTgirl"
One thing I meant to add - if Natalee was bleeding and escaped from the car, she would probably have blood on her hands. If she were trying to negotiate her way around the rocks and holding on to them, that might account for some of the odd places they painted the rocks. The paint was to cover her blood left there as she scrambled amongst the rocks while trying to escape. Crying or Very sad


Exactly, BT, that is what I picture also....and of course, there is also the possibility that she could have been grabbed and swung around a few times as she fought to get away....which would have slung blood all around the rocks and the ground.
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Ono
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« Reply #215 on: July 08, 2006, 11:32:06 AM »

Quote from: "crazybabyborg"
Tyler; it's like Joran's shoes, and the "natalee fell and hit her head" story. There's purpose in the added details that really mean it's something to take a hard look at.


Absolutely.
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klaasend
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« Reply #216 on: July 08, 2006, 11:35:45 AM »

I had this saved and believe it's from the World Journier site:

First 48 hours

5/30/05
11:30am - Paul Lilly (chaperone) notifies local Aruban authorities that Natalee is missing.  An Aruban police beach patrol officer was dispatched to take a report and collect a copy of her passport and other information for identification purposes. 12:00pm, Paul Lilly calls Beth Twitty and tells her Natalee did not show up at the hotel group meeting to go to the airport.

9:00pm - Paul Lilly (chaperone) phones Aruba police asking for an update on the police findings.  It has been reported that the first Aruban police beach patrol officer failed to submit Natalee's passport and other information.  Aruban police say that there is no news about Natalee being found.

5/31/05
2:00am+ - The Twitty's, Charles Croes, G. Ruffner Page jr. Alberto, Jody Bearman, Paul Lilly, DEA agent, FBI agent, a kid who knows Croes and a kid who knows Joran VDS drive to the Aruban police at Noord station arriving some time after 2:00am.
2:45am - All of the above AND 2 Aruban policemen leave Noord police station headed for the Sloot home. (Beth told MSNBC on 8/23 that when they were searching for JVDS the night of 5/31, and after they learned his name and asked for details about him they were told by someone, "he tend to prey upon your kids, and American tourists".
3:00am - All of the above arrive at the VDS home and the 2 police knock on the door while everyone else stays back.  No one immediately answers, so police sound their siren a couple of times.  PVDS eventually answers the door and speaks to police.  Charles Croes overhears PVDS mentioning something about "McDonalds".  Police ask if Joran is home but PVDS says Joran is not home. (Joran's apartment is not attached to the main house.  Did PVDS look for Joran or just tell police that he was not home).  PVDS says Joran may be at the Wyndham Hotel casino gambling. (review of the Wyndham Hotel video tapes document that Joran was never at the Wyndham Hotel casino gambling the evening/morning of 5/30-5/31, he had not been there at all.
5:00am - the entire group above return to the VDS home to find Joran and Deepak casually leaning up against Deepaks honda.  Beth stayed in the car and the meeting lasted about 1 hour.  Beth claims that durring this meeting Joran admits to sexually assaulting Natalee, that it was said in front of witnesses.  Charles Croes in an 6/29 interview says Joran said there was talk about sex. on 10/14 Jug states to Foxnews that the 2 Aruban police officers that witnessed Joran regarding the sexual assault did not document it in their witness reports.  The 2 Aruban police officers/witnesses claim they cannot recall what as said that night.
6:00am -Conversations and questions become heated.  The police the group to leave.  The Aruban police leave the VDS residence without searching the residence, Deepaks car, or taking any further investigative actions.

Natalee's toothbrush was taken into custody but was not tested until late July according to Tito Lacle, the toothbrush is said to have male DNA on it.

6/1/05
Dave Holloway arrives in aruba and goes to 2 police stations that knew nothing about Natalee before arriving at the station in Noord.  The detective in charge of the investigation answered—quote—‘no, this happens all the time. Just go on down to Carlos N‘ Charlie’s and have a beer. She’ll show up sometime. She probably got drunk or fell in love and ran off with someone for a few days.  Dave goes on to say, “quote—‘Dennis Jacobs responded with the following inappropriate question. How much money do you have?’ ” (DAVE responded “there were two witnesses there that can confirm that.” is what JACOBS said to DAVE)

Beth told CNN on 10/4 that she went to the police station on 6/1 to give her statement of what occurred on 5/31. Beth gave her statement and it was printed in Dutch and translated for her in English, she was asked to sign it which she did. Dennis Jacobs found Beth and Jug later that night and told Beth she needed to sign a new statement, that the date needed to be corrected.  This new statement was only in Dutch but Beth signed it anyway assuming only the date had been changed.  According to Beth her entire statement had been changed. None of the other witnesses were asked to give statements until 16 days later.  The DEA agent has never been asked for a statement.
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oldfart
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« Reply #217 on: July 08, 2006, 11:35:58 AM »

OMG..

I actually managed  to find something I was looking for  Shocked
Aruba Suspect Changes Story; Dad Arrested
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html
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It is NOT over !!! If you believe good prevails and that the truth comes forward then justice will be handed out.  I want answers!
Kat_Gram
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« Reply #218 on: July 08, 2006, 11:35:59 AM »

Quote from: "the big hammer"
Earliest Statements: More Veracity?

Yes sharon.

This is certainly worth a look.  Anything they said PRIOR to meeting HT family in sloot driveway area at about 2:00am on 5/31 has, at this point, a reasonable chance at being more accurate than most of what they said since then.  Because it was at this point they launched the complete fabrication and lie of HI drop off and this timing likely PRECEEDED poolside strategy session w/ pvds.

They were on their own among their friends/classmates, etc for a very brief window of time, attempting to engage normal routine, but they were WITHOUT benefit of pvds alibi manufacturing, and direction on what to say/not say.

ANd that is why early talk of rock and head is important -- particularly headmaster of ISA.  And others too, as posted by klaas a few minutes ago.

Well, there are so many rumors and speculations.
Art on Dana ...... although Art was not there right at the beginning, he knows facts. There ae very few of those around in this case.
I have a Q for Art, although let Art talk is the BEST.
I read and this is the problem, I read way too much and my brain becomes cluttered with things that are put there by ppl like the infamous Julia.
Can the PVDS property ever be searched again ? OR
Did he get a court thingie that it couldn't ?
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JuJu
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« Reply #219 on: July 08, 2006, 11:37:18 AM »

Let's put our heads together.

What issues come up over and over again:

1. The rocks

2. The lighthouse

3. the VDS home

Please add to or take away as you like.....open for discussion
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