Lively Case Discussion #490 7/9 - 7/10/2006

[Shizaru]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

I dunno where you heard that BUT, voice analysis is VERY reliable, you can take it to the bank.  I know this because I have done some work in the voice recognition field.

woops i didnt finish what i was saying.  You do not even need the person to speak the same words.  In alot of cases, all you need is about the first 20 milliseconds of the start of a word at the start of a sentence.  This portion of human speech is most consistent (such as during a phone call, when you answer the phone and say "hello" - the 1st 20 milliseconds of the word hello would be all you need to compare to a known sample of the persons voice.

In that case if there is a female voice on the call the FBI must have determined that it was not Natalee.

Croes did say in his e-mail the call had been determined not to be from Natalee but he did not say how or if it was known who it was actually from.

[Tylergal]

Does anyone remember GunSlinger posting (yesterday or Saturday I believe) that he had heard the call from Natalee that night?  Did he give a time on the call?

Would love to hear more about this if GunSlinger did indeed hear this call...

No, I don't remember that but I can do a search of his posts.

Sunfreak - I don't see a post where Gunslinger said he heard the call.

He did say that on Saturday, but I am not sure if he heard the actual call.  He later said it had been on television.  I think he meant he 'heard' of the call, not "heard the call"  I believe that is correct

Go back a few posts from my response, perhaps even a couple days before where he stated he had heard the call and it was Natalee's voice.

[thirdstrike]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

I dunno where you heard that BUT, voice analysis is VERY reliable, you can take it to the bank.  I know this because I have done some work in the voice recognition field.

woops i didnt finish what i was saying.  You do not even need the person to speak the same words.  In alot of cases, all you need is about the first 20 milliseconds of the start of a word at the start of a sentence.  This portion of human speech is most consistent (such as during a phone call, when you answer the phone and say "hello" - the 1st 20 milliseconds of the word hello would be all you need to compare to a known sample of the persons voice.

In that case if there is a female voice on the call the FBI must have determined that it was not Natalee.

Croes did say in his e-mail the call had been determined not to be from Natalee but he did not say how or if it was known who it was actually from.

Ok, so have we now confirmed the call was not from Natalee?  That would be a shock to many hear, because there are quite a few that swear by it to the point that it has now become as "factual" as Joran and the K2's being the last person seen with her...

[klaasend]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

[Jerry from Ohio]

Later!

 AWE FM  that is truly sad and if I may I will send up smoke tonite for her and her family  if ya can please post her first name if your ok with that  if not the great father will already know who she is .
  May you also find strength in dealing with the situation ,
   Jerry from Ohio

[Tylergal]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

Well, we are mixing oranges and apples here.  There was a call to William Norris and a call to the residence, which Jug did not answer and it went to voice mail, the call that Beth asked the state trooper to listen to when she was stopped doing 100 miles per hour and the state trooper escorted her and made sure she was save from Arkansas to Alabama on May 30.

[Tylergal]

.
Susebear,
I keep getting all sorts of email from those products, too, offers of free samples, and one even from Phillips Products soliciting me to purchase their electronics.  I never received them before so must conclude this is some sort of massive PR campaign by the Dutch to promote their products.  I also send Breck Bulbs my reason for not purchasing for the first time in probably fifteen years.

Maybe they will eventually get the message?

.

Unfortunately Philips is about to take over the medical industry as far as technology goes.  Next time you are in a hopsital, look for the trademark on everything.  Of course, they have many different names under their umbrella, so you might not know it to be Philips, but it is as pervasive as E. coli in the drains.

[the big hammer]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

[Tylergal]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

I dunno where you heard that BUT, voice analysis is VERY reliable, you can take it to the bank.  I know this because I have done some work in the voice recognition field.

woops i didnt finish what i was saying.  You do not even need the person to speak the same words.  In alot of cases, all you need is about the first 20 milliseconds of the start of a word at the start of a sentence.  This portion of human speech is most consistent (such as during a phone call, when you answer the phone and say "hello" - the 1st 20 milliseconds of the word hello would be all you need to compare to a known sample of the persons voice.

Blah is exactly right.  

As to voice recognition being used since the war on terror, its use is becoming more widespread and unfortunately Philiips is on the cutting edge, even to employing some questionable people to work in the field, many of whom might have connections to medrossas (sic).

[Tylergal]

Goodmorning All


SAN - are you here??

I am here now.

I'm so relieved!  There was a building that exploded in Manhatten today.  It held a DR's office and of course I immediately worried about you!  My husband tells me I worry too much, LOL  

Wonder if it was Abdul Mohammed Wahibbi's office.

[Peaches]

.
Susebear,
I keep getting all sorts of email from those products, too, offers of free samples, and one even from Phillips Products soliciting me to purchase their electronics.  I never received them before so must conclude this is some sort of massive PR campaign by the Dutch to promote their products.  I also send Breck Bulbs my reason for not purchasing for the first time in probably fifteen years.

Maybe they will eventually get the message?

.

Unfortunately Philips is about to take over the medical industry as far as technology goes.  Next time you are in a hopsital, look for the trademark on everything.  Of course, they have many different names under their umbrella, so you might not know it to be Philips, but it is as pervasive as E. coli in the drains.

You're right.  I get those surveys as well and I think BITE ME works pretty well.  I walk right by Ragu on a regular basis without a second thought.

[klaasend]

Goodmorning All


SAN - are you here??

I am here now.

I'm so relieved!  There was a building that exploded in Manhatten today.  It held a DR's office and of course I immediately worried about you!  My husband tells me I worry too much, LOL  

Wonder if it was Abdul Mohammed Wahibbi's office.

It was some doctor's office and building and he was going through a bitter divorce.  His exwife said he was contemplating suicide.

[wreck]

Greta confimed on on her blog that there is a male voice on the call, saying "Are you calling home", supposedly C. Croes has confirmed that via e-mail as well.  Greta didn't mention any female voice on the call, neither did alleged Croes e-mail (e-mail also said male voice was preceeded by about a minute of moving vehicle sounds).
 
However I remember Dash/Alana Jordan saying she had heard the call and she couldn't understand what was being said but didn't think it sounded like Natalee (Dash's SM posts are archived on scrux, I think some of them are missing but it could be in there somewhere).  Apparently several MB kids listened to the call during the bus ride home.  And if it was just a male voice you'd think Alana would have specified that the voice wasn't even female.  So perhaps there was a very faint garbled female voice on the call too, before the male voice.  

I think the call probably wasn't from Natalee, and if it had been confirmed to be Natalee via voice analysis we would know that by now.  However it is possible that voice analysis wasn't able to determine whether it was her or not.  I had a discussion once with someone who seemed to know a lot about the subject and he said voice analysis is not as reliable as you see on TV, even if  FBI could clean it up enough to determine she was saying "I don't know these people", to confirm a match they would probably need tape of Natalee saying those same words, or at least some of the same words.

Well, we are mixing oranges and apples here.  There was a call to William Norris and a call to the residence, which Jug did not answer and it went to voice mail, the call that Beth asked the state trooper to listen to when she was stopped doing 100 miles per hour and the state trooper escorted her and made sure she was save from Arkansas to Alabama on May 30.

That is what I remember as well. To me, this has always been the reason that Beth immediately used the term "Kidnapping."
I have always found it odd that the H/T's have not continued to "shout this out." This alone could have deflected a lot of criticism that the naysayers have been spewing.  My guess is that FBI has told them to absolutely clam up about this. That is one of the reasons I think the FBI IS very much involved and are simply remaining mum for much larger reasons.

[klaasend]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

HAMMER - On July 5th, 2006 Gunslinger indicated that he had heard the message and that it was most definately Natalee.  I'm hoping Gunslinger will come back online soon today to clear up HOW he heard the message.

[Shizaru]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

I agree that the call shouldn't be discounted as being from Natalee just based on Croes saying it wasn't, particularly when he didn't say how he knew that.  

However I think that either there is no female voice on the call, or if there is voice analysis has determined it isn't Natalee, because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now.

[Tylergal]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

I agree that the call shouldn't be discounted as being from Natalee just based on Croes saying it wasn't, particularly when he didn't say how he knew that.  

However I think that either there is no female voice on the call, or if there is voice analysis has determined it isn't Natalee, because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now.

My thinking on these calls is that it is best to let JQK expose the phone calls and their origins at the appropriate time.

[Port Valerie]

Hello. Cleaning house today and looking in now and then.  

[truthseeker2]

Cell Call Message...

I see call remains subject of discussion, as it should be.  And to be clear, I refer to vm message to MBHS student phone: William Morris, presumed to have originating time approx 3:00am, Aruba Time.  (I note Shizaru's f/u from NE stating call done between 1:00am - 5:00am.)

IMO, among things to consider is "rumoured" code contained in words of female caller: "I don't know these people..." and to couple w/ following:

1.  The news reports (from May31 - June4) citing Jan van der Straaten and his downplaying of abduction/kidnapping as being part of any potential crime.

2.  The unusal words of Spencer Bachus made during press conference in which he requested the "heavy" involvement of FBI:  he said the family is aware of "disturbing details" and further stated "this was not a teen (Natalee) who wandered off..."

3.  The headline on first posters hung on island upon arrival of HT family: kidnapped.

IMO, it was neither unusual, nor unexpected, for family to make existence of call known to media, etc during interviews, because assuming "code" is true, the real meaning of the words in the vm message remained unknown for many months after May 30, 2005.

Add to that list the cyptic post by C. Croes when he made some reference to "what has happened to this lovely child".

[thirdstrike]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

I agree that the call shouldn't be discounted as being from Natalee just based on Croes saying it wasn't, particularly when he didn't say how he knew that.  

However I think that either there is no female voice on the call, or if there is voice analysis has determined it isn't Natalee, because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now.

I believe this to be the case myself Shizaru...

[thirdstrike]

Shizaru - with all due respect, I will wait for confirmation of the phone call from someone other than Charles Croes.  

Gunslinger says he heard the call.  I want to know how or where he heard the call.  Gunslinger said it definately was Natalee's voice and that you would not need any special voice recognition to realize that.

I agree that the call shouldn't be discounted as being from Natalee just based on Croes saying it wasn't, particularly when he didn't say how he knew that.  

However I think that either there is no female voice on the call, or if there is voice analysis has determined it isn't Natalee, because if there were a confirmed call from Natalee after she left with the trio, even if for some reason the family wanted to keep that secret, which I don't think they would, something that big would have leaked by now.

My thinking on these calls is that it is best to let JQK expose the phone calls and their origins at the appropriate time.

That's just it Tylergal.  I think it would have been in JQK and the H/T camps to have this info (if authenticated) made public because it helps enhance their case in the court of public opinion.  And, that is what's most important here.  Remember, they were trying to apply pressure to the Aruban LE and prosecutors to solve this case by way of a boycott and other methods during this time.  It would have only strengthened thier position by making these calls public (if they are, in fact, real)...