Lively Case Discussion #549 11/27 - 11/28/2006

[dkpen]

I wonder if Joran has ever had a Psychopaths PCL-R test. hmmm Would be interesting to know if he has and what the scores were, if indeed he has.

[robots]

i hate em all

[Sue]

i hate em all

I hate them all also

[the big hammer]

Dutchlady on Trophy-Taking

From Scared Monkeys September 21, 2005:

Yes. In the case of where suspects, or persons who display a perchant for internet profiles that include deviant behaviour, and show sexual connotations as in Joran and one male in some male voyeur behaviour as 'wanted' pose, this supports the minds of relaying activities of such a nature.

Now on tv last night was a Major in real life who castigated on camera a family who's son was drinking openly in the holiday camp as not acceptable behaviour. This was filmed in England. It showed the Major as camp manager not allowing and subjecting father and family to the wrongs of illegal drinking as under age. Contrast this filmed documentary with what is known of Joran as under 17 and the values placed by the parents as European values.

In going further this Major would be of the same mind as me and others that what is shown on published material is a portrayal of persons wrapped in clingfilm, garrotted or intoxicated and in some humiliating pose. In contrast Joran to gay persons asked is 'inviting his body' as lure, so is that the message he is getting to any person who views the photographs? If not what other reason for the person who took and staged the photoshoot, and the actors themselves who have 'played' in these parts. I do think that in human behaviours and the reports that simple sex as normal behaviour of juveniles is not what has been happening on Aruba. It seems that the game is as known to other sectioned communities a trophy and they do take trophies.

If one takes a girl who is selected and informs on the internet of the 'prize' as an assumption of choice, for they may have had others in the frame, then this one was the most easy. She would have been led to one, and not known this was 'three strange guys' who's car she got into. In fact Deepak is calling himself one of those 'strange guys'. This is the actor phase coming out as it is dissociation that he was the one driving and in control of the whole situation. The driver has a lot of power. Hence. the place said to be the command centre all along had to be a private, controlled premises where they were safe. That means no interference.

The tools if we look at cognitive states in the tickle sites are camera, internet, car, and Van Der Sloot home. The issue reminds me of the death of Princess Diana where the desired photographs of her death in the car were fed to media brokered over the internet. In my mind has always been did someone make a headline that morning, but that is sidetracking. The point is that in making pictures for whatever reason this does not stop in persons traits as a signature. I think Deepak is the camera man on the tickle sites and is the uploader of images because of the technology he has and had at his disposal. That is why in statements as 'through away' words he has used past tense and the term 'goodie two shoes'. I would in this case be looking for shoes as a word of two and shoes. It strikes a cord and in coming into visual sensory memory banks he has used a phrase to evade saying the words he does not want to say.

If there is a disc of images it will most likely have been posted as cd. But as Deepak was online I am surmising the importance was the processing of digital camera images as it does not make sense in what is past behaviour. Now in addictive traits that are AOD's as exhibited consider also the 'salient wanting' of entrapment. In having a subserviant, compliant object that is human the mind engages on control. We all know of the experiment where senior officers were made both jailer and imprisoned. In less than five minutes the play acting turned sinister and even mild none 'wanting' brains fed on neurochemical charges and sparked off a frenzy in the others in that control group.

In rounding up, the sex with a prone person captured with no method of escape and the actions on that person are a time warp and have to be captured to relive the experience. If in a real scenario this behaviour had been part of sensation seeking in AOD and other addictive performances then the group who viewed what went on would seek to record this as a premeditated act of 'high jinks' in contrast to criminal acts. This is status empowerment same as graffiti is unlawful in the lower classes but not in public school vandalism as same crime. One is covered by money and power, the other is generalization of inner city poor and societal norms.

I hope this gives some real examples of what is really factual in behaviours that person exhibit as themselves as 'norms'. I therefore think the fbi should look in the safety boxes of persons of interest for such hardcopies just in case.[/b]

.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Fantasy's Integral Role

"The serial killer, much like the chronic gambler and problem drinker, is addicted to the use fantasy."

Addiction's purpose is that of a coping devise. It becomes the method by which the addice can "manage and magically control multiple forms of anxiety".

Addiction is a progressive disease.

"Simply put, it gets worse."

The similarities between sexual addiction, for example, and gambling addiction, and alcoholism, are greater than one would expect.  

We were told by a friend long ago that his addiction to gambling was fueled by alchohol.  When he went through therapy, he had to deal with both and must now, refrain from both to stay clean.   They are all linked.

[memphis]

Hi Monkeys.  Just taking a break now from grading argumentative essays (ugh) and checking in.  Lots of talk and interest now in what will happen next.  The ball is in the Dutch investigator's court now.

  Are you an English teacher?!

If so, no wonder your posts are so communicative.     Also, how very sweet of you to not act as the grammar police.  

[AZLady]

Memphis, yes, I'm an English teacher.     I've been found out!    No, I would never grammar police anyone as they would have every right to scrutinize me in return.  I do think what Hammer has posted is significant.  In rereading Dutch Lady's post, I wonder if all this publicity has deprived Joran of his cherished token(s) from the crime.  Perhaps Daddy has made sure they either do not exist or are not in Joran's possession.  If true, Joran may have created his own token by superimposing his image into the picture of Natalee.  It seems the images he chose are very telling and might remind him of that fateful night.

[AZLady]

Any word yet on whether the transcript of de Vries' show has been posted?  I can't wait to read it.

[AZLady]

Just musing here... we all know Joran displays psychopathic behavior and most of us agree that he is a lunatic murderer with possible addictions to gambling, alcohol, and pornography.  Nice picture, eh?  I'm wondering what effects the pressure of de Vries show and the Dutch investigation are having on him.  He's not been particularly successful in school, if he's even in school anymore, and he's not working that we know.  For an unstable person, this sounds like a tremendous amount of pressure.  I hope the Sloots are monitoring their other sons closely and not leaving them alone with Joran--very dangerous.  He's going to break soon.

[Buckeye]

None posted that, at the time of the original picture posting, a university ID was required by facebook.  Yes, wang +, posted the picts, but maybe Joran (the university student) got them and then cleaned his computer.  Daniel might know this.

Friends of my brother, in Amsterdam, emailed me their take (and they knew nothing about the case), that their impression is that the DA, parents, etc, are covering for Joran because they went to his house for more cocaine, she overdosed, it was too late for the hospital....so they don't want to ruin Joran's life because it won't bring Natalee back.  I, of course, brought them up to speed.....but I'm concerned that others might have that impression.

[klaasend]

Any word yet on whether the transcript of de Vries' show has been posted?  I can't wait to read it.

In our De Vries thread I've posted a translation of part of the first 1/2 that was posted on another site (FOB).  Mostly just background stuff we already knew.

[LilPuma]

I don't think the Kalpoes are directly involved in Natalees demise but indirectly involved by association, after the fact. Oh they may of been involved in the act of rape, but not her death.

I believe Deepak knows a LOT more than he is telling. Satish knows something but I don't think he knows everything. Hince why Deepak wants to keep his younger brother out of it.

Joran is directly involved with Natalees demise and directly involved with her disappearance. Same goes with Paulus. He is directly involved with her disappearance.

What stands out in my mind is when Beth asked Deepak "Did you help her Deepak".  He stood there motionless.  Deepak and Satish were present when Natalee was severely harmed.  Satish would have never asked his brother how is the girl.

I think Beth said Deepak just looked at the ground when she asked that.  As for Satish asking how the girl was doing, even if he didn't ask that question of Deepak Monday, putting it in the statement tells us the Kalpoes knew Natalee was in trouble the night before.

[memphis]

Memphis, yes, I'm an English teacher.     I've been found out!    No, I would never grammar police anyone as they would have every right to scrutinize me in return.  I do think what Hammer has posted is significant.  In rereading Dutch Lady's post, I wonder if all this publicity has deprived Joran of his cherished token(s) from the crime.  Perhaps Daddy has made sure they either do not exist or are not in Joran's possession.  If true, Joran may have created his own token by superimposing his image into the picture of Natalee.  It seems the images he chose are very telling and might remind him of that fateful night.

Remember I told you I enjoyed reading your posts.    You seem to convey exactly what you intended.

Yes, Hammer posted some good stuff. I've been trying to wade through that last Dutch Lady post. It's not exactly an easy read.    

Does anyone know Dutch Lady's background? Was it psychologoy?

[LilPuma]

I am worse than you about Greta, I regret that Joran didn't trouble to make a photoshopped photo of he and Greta, with her swooning over him for posterity  

     

[LilPuma]

Klaas?  Don't know if I missed an earlier post on this, but do we have numbers for access to this site from Aruba during and after the De Vries show?

[dkpen]

I think the whole lost of Aruba has ASPD.

[Shizaru]

From the tscript in DeVries thread:  

 

The night before her disappearance Natalee started drinking alcohol at 10 am in the morning and had to be carried back to her hotel room at night by her roommates/friends.

Lee's statement was that Natalee was "escorted" back to her room by one person.  Not carried by a group of people.  Why did the program feel the need to exaggerate here?

[klaasend]

Klaas?  Don't know if I missed an earlier post on this, but do we have numbers for access to this site from Aruba during and after the De Vries show?

No, I was too busy to look.

[klaasend]

From the tscript in DeVries thread:  

 

The night before her disappearance Natalee started drinking alcohol at 10 am in the morning and had to be carried back to her hotel room at night by her roommates/friends.

Lee's statement was that Natalee was "escorted" back to her room by one person.  Not carried by a group of people.  Why did the program feel the need to exaggerate here?

Shizaru - don't forget this is being translated from Dutch to English.  I think it's just something in the translation.  I wouldn't make that much of it.

[Tylergal]

Antonio Carlo

The conscience-plagued sloot attorney seems to have had second thoughts about his role in covering up a murder, and his own culpability, if his deviant and psychologically-tortured client happens to harm another girl.

The exchange descibed by De Vreis between Jannsen and Carlo, where Carlo evidently approached Jannsen w/ relevant information about the case, and indicates he is aware that jvds bears criminal responsibility for Natalee's disappearance (murder, rape, etc).  

This is strange indeed.  And borders on legal malpractice which could void any judgement against jvds in the future.  And what does Jannsen do?  She attempts to broker further info and Carlo says she'll have to find the "evidence" herself.  And where do we end up?

Nowhere.  Right where we were.

De Vreis attempts to interview Carlo re: these strange events, and Antonio does what all Dutch Arubans do best: he deflects and then runs away.

IMO, the De Vreis show accomplished much in terms of informing and educating Dutch audiences about the events surrounding the murder of Natalee.

I think one of the things accomplished also was the destruction of Karin Jannsen's career.  She deserves it, and verily so, for her base and incompetent handling of this case, and by leading the false arrests of the security guards.

De Vreis should get this incompetent and dangerous woman ( who actually had the temerity and gall to write in a letter to the US Dept of Justice inquiring whether Beth Holloway Twitty was directly related to Adolph Hitler ) on his show next for a detailed interview.  

Her record in this case should be broadcast, as warning to people everywhere who want or need to know the state of jurisprudence in the place formerly known as Aruba.

.

I am beginning to believe now that she, not the package itself, is the poison from the Hague.  I do know that she was there contorting her body in order to pat herself on the back when she was supposedly taking evidence to the Hague.