Natalee Case Discussion #824 9/06/09 - 10/12/09

[Tamikosmom]

In her own classy manner ... Beth Holloway does not take BS from anybody on that island ... she challenges it.

Natalee Holloway's amazing Mom let the the Prime Minister of Aruba have it.  Her articulation was perfect.

Janet

+++++++
 
'RITA COSBY LIVE & DIRECT' - DECEMBER 5, 2008

JULIA RENFRO, “ARUBA TODAY” NEWSPAPER:  Yes, I did.  Actually, you know, everything you just said is absolutely correct, in that I went all out to help Beth in every way, to help find her daughter.  And at some point, I believe it was early July, her husband, Jug, got very upset with me and actually physically pushed me and yelled and screamed at me in foul language in front of my children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL:  Now, was Beth there?

RENFRO:  Yes, she was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL:  OK, Beth, I want to hear what you have to say about this.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY':  Well, Jane, you know, tempers—you know, you are frustrated.  We were searching for answers.  But as far as Jug physically pushing Julie Renfro, no, that did not happen.  I was there.  There was another witness there with us, and also a cab driver was there.  I‘m sorry that—if she felt that—misconstrued that situation.  But there were senior several witnesses there, and no, he did not physically push her, but there was a heated moment, yes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348437


'SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY' - OCTOBER 25, 2008

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: ... I have told Prime Minister Oduber that I will do this, I will be the voice of Natalee for the next 40 years. And I hope I have that long, because I will do it as long as I can.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9813596/

[texasmom]

I wanna know why TM    has this in her photobucket??

 

I was off laughing at my boys and a friend of theirs watching Ghost Hunters...I got a little skeeeeerrrrrrd myself.  I actually have quite a collection Joran's lifestyle symbols that I gathered to use during a discussion here quite a while ago...just dusted that one off.

 

[texasmom]

    Wreck, I'm sure it strictly for medicinal purposes.   

    

[texasmom]

Truth and Justice for Natalee!

[Kermit]

Kermit

QUESTION 3:

When the following is considered ... what is your perspective of what took place during that two day period on board the Persistence following the ROV dive in regards to:

1.  John Silvetti
2.  Mos/Richardson)
3.  Mark Purcell
4.  ATA/AHATA


1.  12/29/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV images.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.


2.  12/30/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV dive images.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.


3.  12/30/07 - John Silvetti's reaction to Tim Miller following the ROV dive.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.


4.  01/01/08 - Tim Miller's sudden departure to pursue a false lead.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC (Nicaragua).


Thank you again Kermit.

Janet

Dec. 29th - Tim Miller saw what he said "looks like a skull"

Kyle told us

Dec. 30th is when John changed his focus. AFTER this date is when John did not want Tim Miller on board because he said he wasn't necssary anymore and was a liability. Kyle did not agree with John Silvetti. Tim was not hurting anything EXCEPT for the phone call to the parents to tell them they had found Natalee.
John was working WITH the ARUBAN polis at this point to arrange the next dive.

That night Kyle talked to Tim Miller. Kyle told Tim Miller that he thought that the polis already knew about the trap which Kyle got from several comments he overheard and also the way the Arubans were behaving. Tim Miller agreed with Kyle and when Kyle woke up the next morning Tim Miller and Dateline were gone off the boat leaving only John Silvetti as the project lead.
That is when John Silvetti took what Richardson said which was to search further out.

Keep in mind that the "original plans" were for the Aruban police AND the crew dive team onboard the Persistence were to be involved in the recover of that trap. That never happened!
Keep in mind there was never a suction-recovery done on that trap either which common sense says you'd do a suction-recovery considering there is a skull and material in the trap. I mean they knew they were out there in Aruba being paid to look for a body recovery and yet they do not seem to follow up on anything. Wonder why?

By March Caps is posting "Me and J & W and the C's are all in agreement now that it must be there."
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2680.560

Caps = Rxxxxx H. Vxxxx
W = Lorenzo Webb
C = Clyde Burke
J = John Silvetti

March 18 there is a meeting between Caps and John, John goes and sees Mos, and Kyle acknowledges he knows about the pond that Caps has been talking about.

[wreck]

Kermit

QUESTION 3:

When the following is considered ... what is your perspective of what took place during that two day period on board the Persistence following the ROV dive in regards to:

1.  John Silvetti
2.  Mos/Richardson)
3.  Mark Purcell
4.  ATA/AHATA


1.  12/29/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV images.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.


2.  12/30/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV dive images.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.


3.  12/30/07 - John Silvetti's reaction to Tim Miller following the ROV dive.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.


4.  01/01/08 - Tim Miller's sudden departure to pursue a false lead.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC (Nicaragua).


Thank you again Kermit.

Janet

Dec. 29th - Tim Miller saw what he said "looks like a skull"

Kyle told us

Dec. 30th is when John changed his focus. AFTER this date is when John did not want Tim Miller on board because he said he wasn't necssary anymore and was a liability. Kyle did not agree with John Silvetti. Tim was not hurting anything EXCEPT for the phone call to the parents to tell them they had found Natalee.
John was working WITH the ARUBAN polis at this point to arrange the next dive.

That night Kyle talked to Tim Miller. Kyle told Tim Miller that he thought that the polis already knew about the trap which Kyle got from several comments he overheard and also the way the Arubans were behaving. Tim Miller agreed with Kyle and when Kyle woke up the next morning Tim Miller and Dateline were gone off the boat leaving only John Silvetti as the project lead.
That is when John Silvetti took what Richardson said which was to search further out.

Keep in mind that the "original plans" were for the Aruban police AND the crew dive team onboard the Persistence were to be involved in the recover of that trap. That never happened!
Keep in mind there was never a suction-recovery done on that trap either which common sense says you'd do a suction-recovery considering there is a skull and material in the trap. I mean they knew they were out there in Aruba being paid to look for a body recovery and yet they do not seem to follow up on anything. Wonder why?

By March Caps is posting "Me and J & W and the C's are all in agreement now that it must be there."
scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2680.560

Caps = Rxxxxx H. Vxxxx
W = Lorenzo Webb
C = Clyde Burke
J = John Silvetti

March 18 there is a meeting between Caps and John, John goes and sees Mos, and Kyle acknowledges he knows about the pond that Caps has been talking about.

I think that sums it up pretty well. (You all know that I have had that opinion from EARLY on -- though I never understood the depths of the deception until Kermit and a few others have clearly laid it out). I originally thought that our Government KNEW about this, but was sitting back and setting a trap for those involved. But, now after another 1 and 3/4 years -- I just don't have any faith anymore that justice is aaround the corner. I am baffled that Beth, her brother, or Dave aren't up in arms. Surely they know of these revelations laid out here.

[Kermit]

Hi Kermit!   

Yes, I think I've seen him here too...

Not positive it was him...but thought it might be one night very recently looking at the front page post about the rave caves...

Was the girl's name Caitlin (sp?)?

uh-huh

Country:Thailand  (Facts)
State/Region:Krung Thep
City:Bangkok
Search Words joran van der sloot

[klaasend]

Hi Kermit!   

Yes, I think I've seen him here too...

Not positive it was him...but thought it might be one night very recently looking at the front page post about the rave caves...

Was the girl's name Caitlin (sp?)?

uh-huh

Country:Thailand  (Facts)
State/Region:Krung Thep
City:Bangkok
Search Words joran van der sloot

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:cAqwkXqHZ64J:www.myspace.com/caitiekitten+caitie+kitten&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[texasmom]

Hi Kermit!   

Yes, I think I've seen him here too...

Not positive it was him...but thought it might be one night very recently looking at the front page post about the rave caves...

Was the girl's name Caitlin (sp?)?

uh-huh

Country:Thailand  (Facts)
State/Region:Krung Thep
City:Bangkok
Search Words joran van der sloot

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:cAqwkXqHZ64J:www.myspace.com/caitiekitten+caitie+kitten&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thanks Kermit and Klaas!   

[Magnolia]

She is a cute girl.  Way too cute for Frankenstein

[Tamikosmom]

Kermit

QUESTION 3:

When the following is considered ... what is your perspective of what took place during that two day period on board the Persistence following the ROV revelation on December 29, 2009 in regards to:

1.  John Silvetti
2.  Mos/Richardson
3.  Mark Purcell
4.  ATA/AHATA


1.  12/29/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV images.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.


2.  12/30/07 - Tim's reaction to the ROV dive images.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  On the night of the 30th (I believe this was Tim's last night on the Persistence) I approached Tim and proposed some ideas to him. I suggested that we shouldn't take the Aruban Polis divers at their word and proceed with planning a recovery of the trap. Also, I proposed the trap site may not be pristine or the Polis may have already knew about it. This statement was backed up by several comments we heard, behavior we observed, and other things. Tim told me he thought I was right but didn't know what to do about it.


3.  12/30/07 - John Silvetti's reaction to Tim Miller following the ROV dive.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.


4.  01/01/08 - Tim Miller's sudden departure to pursue a false lead.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC (Nicaragua).


Thank you again Kermit.

Janet

Thanks for your response Kermit.

For now I only want to focus on the two days prior to Tim Miller's departure from the Persistence.

Am I understanding you correctly?  You believe that it may have been John Silvetti and the Aruban delegation on board the Persistence who made the decision that Tim Miller had to go and ... that decision was made on Deember 29/30, 2009 after Dave and Beth were contacted that he was 99% convinced that the ROV images revealed Natalee Holloway's remains.

Could it be that the Nicauara hoax was collaborated at this time and ... then Mark Purcell was contacted to relay the "tip" to Dave Holloway.  The involvement of Tim Miller was a given and ... the "liability" left the ship on January 1, 2009 ... six days prior to the recovery of Natalee's remains.

Janet
 

[texasmom]

She is a cute girl.  Way too cute for Frankenstein

I agree, Magnolia.  Plus, I'll always believe he's a ticking time bomb!   
 

[texasmom]

Truth and Justice for Natalee!

[Tamikosmom]

Kermit

Thank you for your input ... both research and insight.  We may not be on the same page in all aspects and ... that is OK.  However ... I sincerely value your perspective.

 

I think we are OK for now but ... I will shout at the next impass.

Ribbit.

Janet

[Tamikosmom]

LOVING NATALEE - BETH HOLLOWAY

Pages 230/231:  I can't say for sure if we'll ever know that answer to whether my daughter is alive or not.  I know it doesn't look good.  But just as that old metal spiral staircase rose from the ashes when our lake house burned down, so too faith stands strong in the remains of this devastating loss.  And just as my Dad built another house around that staircase, I will build another life around hope and faith.  It won't ever be the same.  But I pray that it will, at the very least, be useful.

The hope that filled Natalee's heart fills mine, and I will press on.  Faith got me up this morning, and faith will see me through tomorrow.  And the next day.  And the next.

Page 232:  Without hope we are hungry. And on a very deep level, desperate. But no one has to be. What's so amazing is that we can feed each other. We can help each other. We have the power to give resilience to others who are fading. We can nourish each other's spirits and save one another from defeat and despair. Every one of us possesses this power to "love thy neighbor," and we need to use it every chance we get.

[texasmom]

10/1/2009 Awe Mainta Page 23

http://awemainta.com/home/



Papiamentu translation:

for odd cu can is desaparicion of vice consul mericano, do not important for medionan mericano

thing cu owing to wing very atencion ultimo day, t’e desaparicion of the vice consul mericano, staciona at corsow. is deal here of james hogan, for cual have very much speculacion. contrario at desaparicion of the student mericano, natalee holloway some year happen, where aruba owing to stay invadi for several medio of comunicación mericano, all the canalnan of television mericano, permiti for name of aruba wordo bad propaga, at corsow, seems cu they not have interest p’e desaparicion of the vice consul mericano here. at aruba, is surgi the question, pakico not have interest?

or the medionan of prensa mericano not know still? siendo cu departamento of estado is at height, for cual even autoridadnan hudicial of antiyas, is hayando asistencia of fbi, dea y also for of the netherlands, owing to send asistencia for busca the mericano here, that as menciona owing to desaparace in form misterioso. as menciona, have very speculacion y although till now here, autoridadnan is mantene the hipotesis of desaparicion, not have to exclui of one acto criminal. cometi for kende(nan)? esey also have to wordo investiga.

[texasmom]

For Sandy Leiva,

When you have time (no hurry at all), please translate this article by Jossy Mansur. 

You're the best, and I'd really like to understand what Jossy was saying!

Thanks a million Sandy!   

http://www.diario.aw/2009/09/e-xenofobia-di-nel/

[hotping]

65 years after disappearance, search for WW II WASP pilot will begin anew
By Independent Press
September 30, 2009, 10:37AM

SEARCH RE-OPENS — Former Summit resident Gertrude Tompkins, the only missing member of the World War II Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP), disappeared in October 1944 in her P-51-D Mustang, and is now the object of an intense underwater search by the Missing Aircraft Search Team and other experts. (Photo courtesy of Laura Whittall-Scherfee)

SUMMIT — Divers, explorers and aviation archaeologists from the Missing Aircraft Search Team (MAST) and from around the country have launched an expedition off Los Angeles to search for former Summit resident Gertrude Tompkins, the last missing member of the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) of World War II.
According to expedition spokesman Lew Toulmin, a co-founder of MAST and a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, “The WASP were absolutely vital to the war effort. They ferried all types of aircraft over 60 million miles from factories to shipping locations on the east and west coasts. Gertrude ‘Tommy’ Tompkins was one of these heroic WASP, and she disappeared in the Los Angeles, Calif., area on 26 October 1944, in her powerful P-51-D Mustang. She is the last missing member of this famous and dedicated group, and her disappearance is one of the great remaining mysteries of World War II.”
G. Pat Macha of Los Angeles, who has written three books on airplane archaeology and has been researching the Tompkins case for more than 11 years, said, “We hope we can solve this case soon, so that we can bring closure to the family, including Gertrude’s 100-year-old sister, who is very much rooting for us. We interviewed a possible eyewitness to the crash, who was only a boy at the time, and that has helped our analysis quite a bit.”
Robert E. Hyman, a member of MAST and one of the leaders of the expedition, noted that the WASP are still very much in the news. “On July 2, 2009, President Obama signed a bill awarding a Congressional Gold Medal to the 300 surviving WASP for their service. The President said, ‘The WASP answered their country’s call in a time of need, while blazing a trail for the brave women who have given and continue to give so much in service to this nation since.’”
According to Chris Killian, the leader of the expedition and a co-founder of the Missing Aircraft Search Team, “Gertrude Tompkins had only been married a month to Sgt. Henry Silver when she took off at about 4 p.m. on 26 October 1944 from Mines Field — now Los Angeles International Airport — and headed for the East Coast in her Mustang. She took off into the wind, into an offshore fog bank, and was expected that night at Palm Springs. But she never arrived. Due to a paperwork foul-up, the search did not get under way for several days, and while the eventual search of land and sea was massive, it failed to find a trace of Silver or her plane.”
Gene Ralston, a search expert who has found the bodies of more than 60 drowning victims in the U.S. and Canada, and who worked on the well-publicized Laci Peterson and Natalee Holloway disappearances, is leading the sonar detection effort. He said, “Our role is to exactly locate each underwater site and do preliminary screening using side scan sonar and our remotely operated underwater vehicle, to see if we can rule out that particular target.” FBI Special Agent and diver Mike Pizzio, taking a vacation from his job as a member of the FBI’s Underwater Search and Evidence Response Team in Miami, is leading the dive team. He said, “Some of the underwater targets are over 270 feet down. So we utilize special gear and have recruited some of the top divers in the country to work on this important case.”
Gary Fabian is a maritime historian who found the elusive World War I German submarine UB-88 off Long Beach, Calif. He said, “We have been searching on and off for Tompkins and her plane for years, but I think that our expanded team has a comprehensive approach that will sort through all the high probability targets. So we are very hopeful.”
According to Colleen Keller, a pilot, co-founder of MAST and expert in search theory who just returned from working on the June 2009 disappearance of Air France flight 447 off Brazil, “There are several possible causes for the crash. The most likely cause is pilot disorientation in the fog. But other possibilities include distraction due to a faulty canopy, problems with the center of gravity in the Mustang and problems with the engine. If we find the plane and are very lucky indeed, an investigation might be able to shed some light on the cause of the crash.”
Toulmin, the spokesman for the effort, said the effort will bring together a range of skills. “This effort is led by members of the private group MAST, which recently contributed to finding the missing Cessna N2700Q in Arizona, and was founded by private searchers who worked on the disappearance of adventurer Steve Fossett. The Tompkins team includes experts in search theory, expedition management, diving and historical research, and incorporates all the key investigators who have worked on the case over the years. We are very honored that relatives of Gertrude Tompkins are also participating in team logistics and field support.” For updates during the initial search dates of Sept. 27-Oct. 2, and the main search dates of Oct. 3-11, visit aircraftwrecks.com.
He continued, “Our all-volunteer team has undertaken hundreds of hours of research on the case, and we located three WASP who were apparently present at Mines Field the day Gertrude disappeared. These three P-51 WASP pilots had never before been interviewed about this case, while the initial 1944 accident report only interviewed one WASP. We have conducted numerous other interviews and analyzed various underwater databases to assist us. Our on-site team has a total of 35 members and we plan to deliver over 220 person-days of effort in the field. We are very excited about the Gertrude Tompkins Expedition, and have our fingers crossed that we can solve this great mystery.”

http://www.nj.com/independentpress/index.ssf/2009/09/65_years_after_disappearance_s.html

[jen3560]

http://www.quota-setx.org/mission.html

Quota International Mission Statement

Quota's Objects, established in 1919 and revised in 1996, serve as Quota International's mission:

The business and objects of Quota International shall be to seek individuals of diverse occupations committed to sharing their time, talent, and resources to meet Quota International's service goals, and more particularly:

To serve country and community;

To promote high ethical standards;

To emphasize the dignity of all useful occupations;

To develop good fellowship and friendship; and

To advance the ideals of righteousness, justice, international understanding, and good will.

(Quota International Bylaws, Article II)

Well then.  Their recent actions would be a bit contrary to their Mission Statement. 

[jen3560]

   My understanding of papi is pretty much nil.  is this saying the disappearance of Hogan is not being considered important?

And are they making that comparison to how Aruba handled Natalee's disappearance?

10/1/2009 Awe Mainta Page 23

http://awemainta.com/home/



Papiamentu translation:

for odd cu can is desaparicion of vice consul mericano, do not important for medionan mericano

thing cu owing to wing very atencion ultimo day, t’e desaparicion of the vice consul mericano, staciona at corsow. is deal here of james hogan, for cual have very much speculacion. contrario at desaparicion of the student mericano, natalee holloway some year happen, where aruba owing to stay invadi for several medio of comunicación mericano, all the canalnan of television mericano, permiti for name of aruba wordo bad propaga, at corsow, seems cu they not have interest p’e desaparicion of the vice consul mericano here. at aruba, is surgi the question, pakico not have interest?

or the medionan of prensa mericano not know still? siendo cu departamento of estado is at height, for cual even autoridadnan hudicial of antiyas, is hayando asistencia of fbi, dea y also for of the netherlands, owing to send asistencia for busca the mericano here, that as menciona owing to desaparace in form misterioso. as menciona, have very speculacion y although till now here, autoridadnan is mantene the hipotesis of desaparicion, not have to exclui of one acto criminal. cometi for kende(nan)? esey also have to wordo investiga.