Separation of Church and State? Only when it's Christians...

[mrs. red]

So now the newest memember of Congress demanded to be sworn in on the Koran....

but we have "seculuar progresses" etc. complaining about Christians?  Why wasn't this religious display of faith challenged?

People really need to wake up and smell the coffee, IMO.

Thoughts??

[nonesuche]

I question it passionately and am quite tired of only certain religions being politicized and others not.

Do you think there will be a push back from religious groups regarding this? That's the question I have for I think if this blithely slips thru the cracks then it's one more win against our own personal freedoms.

[mrs. red]

I think it's a huge loss for Christians for allowing it to slip through... we are being challenged left and right about the Bible and separation of Church and State... and then this...

it scares me.

[nonesuche]

it scares me too, I likely should not admit this but my children can live with it, so I will. Had I known the very freedoms our country were founded on would be tossed out the window for certain segments of our society, I would likely never chosen to have children.

I'll also repeat something the OC at Bama said regarding son, he said it was apparent to him that son had a strong religious foundation by his word and deed and level of personal responsibility as compared to other players. Son sacrificed high visibility in sports to attend a school that required chapel weekly and stronger academics.

Sad thing is, only a few in coaching value that as proof of capability to lead these days.

[LouiseVargas]

I heard about this on the news but don't know the name of the congress person. I heard the request to swear on the Koran was not accepted well. Did that person, in fact, really swear on the Koran? The same Koran that says death to Israel?

It's such a delicate dance. We are afraid of offending Muslims but I think it's stepping over the line to swear on a Koran, particularly in these days and times. I don't know what the answer is but an answer is needed soon.

Joe Lieberman never asked to be sworn in on a Torah. To Christians and Jews, swearing on a bible is a symbolic and traditional gesture. The bible contains the old testament and the new testament. It does not single out any group for discrimination like the Koran does.

I'm thinking that any American elected to office in America should follow the traditional rules of America and swear on a bible.

[LouiseVargas]

Another thought .... I just checked the title of this thread and want to ask if you really think Christians are being discriminated against? As far as I know, this is a Christian country and was founded upon Christian principles.

[mrs. red]

LV, I was hoping to see you weigh in with your thoughts...

yes, I do think that Christians are discriminated against these days in order to be PC... I also think that Jewish people get discrimated against in the regard of the subject of this thread, for you make a very valid point about the Torah and Joe Liberman.

I say that Christians are discriminated against because of the season, and all the towns that are willing to place the crescent and star in their holiday display but don't allow a creche... since when does the Muslim religion celebrate Christmas?  At least Channuakka (sp) is at this time... Ramadam is celebrated more toward Sept if I am correct... so this season has no meaning to them, why do we need to "celebrate" their religion???

I have NO issue celebrating Christmas and Channaukka together, at least I get the reason for that celebration and I understand that it's a valid celebration whereas I hate to say it, but I don't get the whole need to appease anyone at this time of year just because they are Muslim and we shouldn't offend them....

quite frankly it doesn't say in the US Constition that we have the absolute right to never be offended... happens to us all at times that we get offended and I am sick to death of people worrying about how the Muslims will feel... I haven't seen a Muslim come out and condemn the edict "death to infidels" of which, let's face it, we all are... Christian, Jew, hell even atheist ... no Muslims that are "peace loving" are condemning the faction of the religion that says death to everyone but them.... and I have to say that as a Christian, I would be the first to say that those psychos from KS that claim to be Christian and protest funerals are nothing to do with the Christian religion as I have been taught it....
all of the above reasons are why I think that yes, at this time of year - Christians are discriminated against.

[nonesuche]

Mrs even muslim high-tech workers on contracts, not even permanent hires are often succeeding in forcing corporations to allow them to observe all muslim religious holidays and also other traditions in the workplace. One situation in my personal experience involved one of the most offensive and chauvinistic Director's I've ever encountered, he's even on the 'watch list' with INS and must file any travel plans six months in advance, but whatever he demands from his employer he gets. His employer ended their xmas party and company fourth of july picnic, after having had both for over 40 years, upon his complaint?

This is a phenomenon I simply cannot figure out.

[mrs. red]

None,
It's all about people trying to hard not to appear prejudiced... and they are having it used against them in various and incidious ways.  Look at the plant workers in TN that sued and won due to having prayer time.... I say we need to stop with the PC baloney and not worry so much about offending people....

[Sam]

I hope this link will work. I just read it on an aol news site.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/radio-hoax-exposes-anti-muslim-sentiment/20061202154609990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001

I also received this interesting email today. Sort of off topic but not completeley.

Fun with the ACLU... Spread the news. Its worth 39cents to drive home the message.

Send the ACLU a Christmas card this year.
As they are working very hard to get rid of the Christmas part of the holiday, we should all send them a nice, Christian card to brighten up their dark , sad little world.
Make sure it says Merry Christmas on it.

Here is the address, please do not be rude or crude. (It's not the Christian way you know.)

ACLU
125 Broad Street
18th floor
New York, NY 10004

Two tons of Christmas cards would freeze their operations because they wouldn't know if any were regular mail containing contributions. So spend 39 cents and tell the ACLU to leave Christmas alone. Also tell them that there is no such thing as a Holiday tree. Its a Christmas tree even in the fields.

Pass this on to your email friends. We really want to communicate with the ACLU! They really deserve us.

I did send it on and added not to use your whole name. I hope it gets a point across.

[LouiseVargas]

I hope I haven't missed it in the above posts, but do we know the name of the congress person who wanted to swear on the Koran?

[Carnut]

Keith Ellison Dem from Minnesota

[Tylergal]

I am just sick this is happening, our country is slipping into a dark place where I do not want my grandchildren growing up.  But it is worse in England and France.  So there is no respite for Americans, not even in our own country for those who should be fighting to save it, are destroying it.  Voters, wake up.

[LouiseVargas]

What type of Muslim name is this? Keith Ellison Dem from Minnesota.

[Carnut]

What type of Muslim name is this? Keith Ellison Dem from Minnesota.

The name in my link is a hotlink, c l i c k on it and you will get the story.

[LouiseVargas]

I know everything is so tricky and so PC these days. In the old days, it was rather simple. Now, we are turning ourselves inside out to be fair to Muslims. However, we have to remember only a small amount of them are radicals.

I see a parallel to WWII. After Pearl Harbor, Japanese people living in the USA were interred in concentration camps to make sure they would not participate in any further attacks on the US. These innocent people were not involved for any other reason that they were just Japanese.

Right here, the screw turns from patriotism to religion. We cannot gather up all the Muslims in the US and inter them. For one thing, it's discriminatory and second, it's a human rights violation.

I would have no problem with Keith Ellison and Barack Obama being Muslim if not for the attack on September 11. While neither of them personally attacked the USA, being part of the same religion as the attackers seems to put them in the same dangerous category.

I still hold by the rules .... that if one runs for office in the USA, they should be sworn in on the bible, PERIOD. Let them find it in their own minds what the bible means to them. We know what the bible means to us.

[Tylergal]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,234237,00.html

[A's Fever]

I found this thread a little unsettling when I first read it, so thought I would add my 2 cents, FWIW.

The Constitution does not require a bible for swearing in, or "so help me God", in fact, religious tests are prohibited:

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A6.html


Presidents Rutherford B. Hayes and Theodore Roosevelt (first term) did not swear on bibles, but I don't know what their reasons were.

I find radical Muslims scary, too, and I am suspicious of this guy's ties to the Nation of Islam.  I also find forced Christian practices in our country scary.  We are supposed to be about freedom of religion.  When a politician swears to uphold the laws of the land, what does that have to do with Christianity?  Our laws are based on the principles of democracy, not bible based.  I don't know what the answer is here.  

Like I said, just my 2 cents.

[LouiseVargas]

I read your link. So I wonder when and how it came to pass that swearing on a bible came to be the custom.

[A's Fever]

That's a good question, Louise!

I tried Googling this but really got only pundits and their opinions and no real historical insight.  One thing that did come up repeatedly is that a) it is a practice stemming from English law and b) the point is not swearing on a bible, but taking your oath or affirmation on something that is important to you, i.e., swearing on your mother's grave.  

Maybe when swearing to uphold the Constitution it would make more sense to swear on the Constitution, rather than any religious text.

That way, the church and state issue is removed, as is the divisive nature of Bible vs. Koran discussion.

I also read that Congress takes their oath together as a group, standing up with their right hand raised.  They do not swear on any book.  The book is part of the ceremonial photo afterwards.  Don't know if this is accurate or not.