Caylee Marie Anthony #151 11/4/09 - 11/20/09

[Babybear]

The State announced that they would seek the DP against Casey on April 13th. It was never on the table before that. The murder 1 charge can bring either LWOP or the DP. I think without the body being found, they decided not to seek the DP......of course that all changed after they found her and evidence that linked her death back to Casey and the Anthony home.

With all due respect the murder  one charge was on the table after the Grand Jury.  It was then removed for some reason..and once the body was found was reinstated.

Yes, you're right Gypsy.  And as I recall the DP was removed after Baez obtained the services of an attorney to file a brief as to why the DP should not be imposed.  Shortly therereafter, the DP was removed from the possibilities by the SA.  (I hate the term "On the table.)This attorney whose name I don't recall, but he was a FL attorney, is experienced in filing papers as to why the DP should not be imposed.  It's in the documents from early on, but I don't have the time or inclination to search, also probably couldn't find it anyhow. Then, once the body was found, the DP was brought back.

[ISpy]

Hi Monkeys. Thanks for all of the great and thoughtful posts. Not to be too graphic, but I have a question. Does anyone else think that the duct tape may have been applied to Caylee once her body started purging fluids in the trunk? It makes sense to me, but I'd sure appreciate other's opinions. Thanks.

**GRAPHIC ALERT- My Sensitive Monkey friends may want to skip this**

I don't want to be graphic either (nor have this on my mind close to beddy-by time), but someone else suggested that as well (I think the hinkymeter website or something like that).  I doubt that the tape was applied in response to bloating and purging.  While all duct tape is highly adhesive (and this one even more so being a commercial grade),  I don't think it would have adhered to already wet surfaces nor adhered for nearly 6 months in the heat, humidity, and wetness generated by the wrapping/storage/decomposition process.
O.k., forgive me for this.  Wrapping the facial area once the body was already bloated and purging would not have produced such a tightly wound, intact wrap around the skull once that bloated tissue was gone.  The ME's report was very specific about the tape being wrapped tightly enough to hold the lower jaw bone intact even after 6 months, as well as the hair mat...neither of which would have occurred if the body was already bloated and purging fluids.  Given the decomp process itself, the hurricane effects (water & wind jostling the bag), and known animal activity, that must have been a very tight wrap job, given how fragile skeletal bones are.  I'm sorry to be so graphic about this. 

[darla]

Good Evening Monkeys and guest!

In regard to the fingerprints and such in the document dumps...IIRC way back in one of the motion hearings Bozo was whining about what the SA was releasing to him and the SA stated that they had not received some of the information from the FBI and could not give him something they did not have. He was informed that if he wanted it he would have to request it from the FBI himself. He was told if the FBI would release it to him they were fine with it, but if they didn't there was nothing they could do. The FBI is not subject to the Florida Sunshine Law.....so they maybe holding on to pertinent info that will not be released til trial. That is my understanding.

Thought I would stop in and help keep the conversation going for those you can't. Cindy and George do not know what they will be missing  in not having Caylee around. I had five of my babies overnight and all day. Just sent them home to their mommies and daddies. We had a glorious night and day!.

[ISpy]

**Sensitive Monkeys-you may want to scroll on**

Thinking through my previous post...the nose & mouth had to have been taped prior to bloating and purging (don't want to elaborate), which is why Dr. G. stated it the way she did in the ME's report.  That's why the wrap was still so tight and remained so intact...the pressure from the layers of tape forced the tissue to remain constricted, rather than bloating in that area.  JMO

[ISpy]

Gizzie: Great question. I'd like to understand this issue better.  Maybe the defense doesn't want to request all of the information because it may be disadvantageous in  negotiating a plea? If it becomes very apparent that she's totally guilty beyond any story they can create, the defense would be hard put to negotiate much beyond LWOP.  What do other Monkeys think?

mgoblue- Good observation!  You may be onto something here.  IMO, the defense is playing a chess game, requesting just enough evidence to get a feel for how much specific evidence and what type the state has.  They're walking a fine line if they're hoping to plea.  It's a delicate balance between getting enough disclosure to know when a plea would be a better deal for their client and getting too much, making a plea bargain a mute point.

[ISpy]

O.k., I have a question here and maybe a more legal-eagle monkey can help me with this.  I seem to remember reading something that explained the disclosure of evidence to the defense process.  As I understood it, the state is required to provide only the evidence in it's possession, as it is specifically requested by the defense (sort of like playing "Go Fish"). IIRC, however, the release of evidence could be somewhat circumvented or delayed if the testing/lab results were "delayed".  Is that, in fact, true?  TIA!

[Gizzie]

Good Evening Monkeys and guest!

In regard to the fingerprints and such in the document dumps...IIRC way back in one of the motion hearings Bozo was whining about what the SA was releasing to him and the SA stated that they had not received some of the information from the FBI and could not give him something they did not have. He was informed that if he wanted it he would have to request it from the FBI himself. He was told if the FBI would release it to him they were fine with it, but if they didn't there was nothing they could do. The FBI is not subject to the Florida Sunshine Law.....so they maybe holding on to pertinent info that will not be released til trial. That is my understanding.

Thought I would stop in and help keep the conversation going for those you can't. Cindy and George do not know what they will be missing  in not having Caylee around. I had five of my babies overnight and all day. Just sent them home to their mommies and daddies. We had a glorious night and day!.

Hi Darla! Thank you! I do remember reading that now. It's been so long, I've forgotten so many things. Gives me hope again about a fingerprint. Glad you had a great time with your babies! 

[Gizzie]

**Sensitive Monkeys-you may want to scroll on**

Thinking through my previous post...the nose & mouth had to have been taped prior to bloating and purging (don't want to elaborate), which is why Dr. G. stated it the way she did in the ME's report.  That's why the wrap was still so tight and remained so intact...the pressure from the layers of tape forced the tissue to remain constricted, rather than bloating in that area.  JMO

Hello to you, ISpy, I was going to ask about the pressure keeping the tape intact, but you're theory makes sense, that the tissue remained constricted. And I remember reading it didn't take long at all until Caylee was fully decomposed. I think I read under 2 weeks? I was thinking that if a body had gone thru the normal rate of decomposing, the pressure would have been enough to maybe split the tape somewhere.  I'm curious if the gases would have the strength to do that...kinda.

[ISpy]

JMO, but I'd be surprised if the state bargains on this case.  IMO, both Baez and the Anthonys have used the mainstream and local media to be excessively antagonistic toward Orange County LE, Texas Equisearch, the State's Attorney's Office, and Mark Nejame.  IMO, they've been casting aspersions and attempting character assassinations on them and scores of innocent people (Cindy's ridiculous and defamatory statements about Jesse Grund, Amy Huzienga, Ricardo Morales, Rev. Grund, Tim Miller, and all the people named in her now-released emailed "tips" to Dominic Casey).   Factoring in Cindy's email that she knowingly gave LE the wrong hairbrush and all of Cindy & George's discrepancies in their LE statements and varied depos, why should the state's attorneys bargain?  I'd be going for Accessory To/After The Fact, Obstruction of Justice, Perjury, etc. if it were me ("Grieving Grandparents", bah!).  Of course, the plethora of evidence + the Power Struggle-Revenge motive I believe LE will successfully establish per interviews of Casey's friends/Lee/George (particularly Lee, who's apparently only willing to go so far for Casey) doesn't hurt any either.
JMO, of course.

Sidenote: Personally, I think Lee loves his sister, but he's had enough.  IMO, he loves his parents and he's unwilling to allow Casey (by her behavior and emotional manipulation) to completely destroy them all.  I do, in an extremely miniscule way, admire his candor for at least being the only one to really disclose the true about Cindy and Casey's competitive, controlling, and combative relationship in both his LE and depo statements.  He neither denied it, nor minimized it.  He was careful to walk the fence by not laying blame solely on either.  I appreciated his willingness to stick his neck out in that instance.  **Of course, that doesn't excuse anything else.**  However, for those few fleeting minutes, I felt like he was a human being after all.  I mean, seriously, why did he tell the truth?  He could have just lied like Cindy & George did (MO).  What prompted him to even tell LE that Cindy & Casey had had a physical confrontation with Cindy choking Casey on June 15th?  Fear of the neighbors reporting the disturbance?  I kind of doubt that.  Lee doesn't strike me as the type of person to volunteer damaging info of that magnitude on his family to anyone.  Lee is a study in contrasts, IMO.  We have his raw honesty on a pretty damaging issue contrasted by the whole "C M A" debacle.  Was the "C M A" a tortured cry, resulting from the culmination of the massive havoc Casey had finally wreaked in their lives?  Don't we have some in-house Monkeys who can analyze this guy?             

[ISpy]

Good Evening Monkeys and guest!

In regard to the fingerprints and such in the document dumps...IIRC way back in one of the motion hearings Bozo was whining about what the SA was releasing to him and the SA stated that they had not received some of the information from the FBI and could not give him something they did not have. He was informed that if he wanted it he would have to request it from the FBI himself. He was told if the FBI would release it to him they were fine with it, but if they didn't there was nothing they could do. The FBI is not subject to the Florida Sunshine Law.....so they maybe holding on to pertinent info that will not be released til trial. That is my understanding.

Thought I would stop in and help keep the conversation going for those you can't. Cindy and George do not know what they will be missing  in not having Caylee around. I had five of my babies overnight and all day. Just sent them home to their mommies and daddies. We had a glorious night and day!.

Hi Darla! Thank you! I do remember reading that now. It's been so long, I've forgotten so many things. Gives me hope again about a fingerprint. Glad you had a great time with your babies! 

Darla- thank you for bringing that up!  I thought that's kind of what I was remembering too.  Gizzie- Hey there!  Thanks for bringing this up.  Somehow, I missed Darla's post and I kept thinking I had read something about this.

[ISpy]

**Sensitive Monkeys-you may want to scroll on**

Thinking through my previous post...the nose & mouth had to have been taped prior to bloating and purging (don't want to elaborate), which is why Dr. G. stated it the way she did in the ME's report.  That's why the wrap was still so tight and remained so intact...the pressure from the layers of tape forced the tissue to remain constricted, rather than bloating in that area.  JMO

Hello to you, ISpy, I was going to ask about the pressure keeping the tape intact, but you're theory makes sense, that the tissue remained constricted. And I remember reading it didn't take long at all until Caylee was fully decomposed. I think I read under 2 weeks? I was thinking that if a body had gone thru the normal rate of decomposing, the pressure would have been enough to maybe split the tape somewhere.  I'm curious if the gases would have the strength to do that...kinda.

Gizzie-I was wondering that too (not that I sit around and think of these things).  As long as I try to think about and analyze this in terms of scientific evidence, I can sort of think it through to a degree.  When it starts getting personal, I don't do well.  That's why I have respect for First-Responders, EMTs, Firemen/women, Police Officers, Rescue Personnel, ER Doctors and Nurses, Medical Examiners, Coroners, Crime Scene Photographers and Photography processors, etc.  My spouse doesn't quite understand why I feel the need to thank these people when I meet them out...because I have only a small clue of what they see in a day's time and they come right back the next day and do it again.   

[Scatty]

JMO, but I'd be surprised if the state bargains on this case.  IMO, both Baez and the Anthonys have used the mainstream and local media to be excessively antagonistic toward Orange County LE, Texas Equisearch, the State's Attorney's Office, and Mark Nejame.  IMO, they've been casting aspersions and attempting character assassinations on them and scores of innocent people (Cindy's ridiculous and defamatory statements about Jesse Grund, Amy Huzienga, Ricardo Morales, Rev. Grund, Tim Miller, and all the people named in her now-released emailed "tips" to Dominic Casey).   Factoring in Cindy's email that she knowingly gave LE the wrong hairbrush and all of Cindy & George's discrepancies in their LE statements and varied depos, why should the state's attorneys bargain?  I'd be going for Accessory To/After The Fact, Obstruction of Justice, Perjury, etc. if it were me ("Grieving Grandparents", bah!).  Of course, the plethora of evidence + the Power Struggle-Revenge motive I believe LE will successfully establish per interviews of Casey's friends/Lee/George (particularly Lee, who's apparently only willing to go so far for Casey) doesn't hurt any either.
JMO, of course.

Sidenote: Personally, I think Lee loves his sister, but he's had enough.  IMO, he loves his parents and he's unwilling to allow Casey (by her behavior and emotional manipulation) to completely destroy them all.  I do, in an extremely miniscule way, admire his candor for at least being the only one to really disclose the true about Cindy and Casey's competitive, controlling, and combative relationship in both his LE and depo statements.  He neither denied it, nor minimized it.  He was careful to walk the fence by not laying blame solely on either.  I appreciated his willingness to stick his neck out in that instance.  **Of course, that doesn't excuse anything else.**  However, for those few fleeting minutes, I felt like he was a human being after all.  I mean, seriously, why did he tell the truth?  He could have just lied like Cindy & George did (MO).  What prompted him to even tell LE that Cindy & Casey had had a physical confrontation with Cindy choking Casey on June 15th?   Fear of the neighbors reporting the disturbance?  I kind of doubt that.  Lee doesn't strike me as the type of person to volunteer damaging info of that magnitude on his family to anyone.  Lee is a study in contrasts, IMO.  We have his raw honesty on a pretty damaging issue contrasted by the whole "C M A" debacle.  Was the "C M A" a tortured cry, resulting from the culmination of the massive havoc Casey had finally wreaked in their lives?  Don't we have some in-house Monkeys who can analyze this guy?             

ISpy, I totally missed somehow the part where he told LE about Cindy choking KC. Which deposition was it in? TIA

[darla]

Ispy and Gizzie, my son is LE ...not in Fla. but I ask him some questions and he said as long as the SA does not have the written info from the FBI Bozo can't compel them to produce it. The FBI has their own set of rules and can hold evidence til trial. The SA's can be aware of what they have but as long as they don't have the paper work, Bozo can't make them produce it. I hope that makes sense.

[darla]

I really do not think the SA will talk a deal. The defense has carried it to far. And I really truly don't think Casey will take a plea if one is offered. She thinks she is going to beat it. I believe the state has all they need to put her away for life or a death sentence.

[Blumonkey]

JMO, but I'd be surprised if the state bargains on this case.  IMO, both Baez and the Anthonys have used the mainstream and local media to be excessively antagonistic toward Orange County LE, Texas Equisearch, the State's Attorney's Office, and Mark Nejame.  IMO, they've been casting aspersions and attempting character assassinations on them and scores of innocent people (Cindy's ridiculous and defamatory statements about Jesse Grund, Amy Huzienga, Ricardo Morales, Rev. Grund, Tim Miller, and all the people named in her now-released emailed "tips" to Dominic Casey).   Factoring in Cindy's email that she knowingly gave LE the wrong hairbrush and all of Cindy & George's discrepancies in their LE statements and varied depos, why should the state's attorneys bargain?  I'd be going for Accessory To/After The Fact, Obstruction of Justice, Perjury, etc. if it were me ("Grieving Grandparents", bah!).  Of course, the plethora of evidence + the Power Struggle-Revenge motive I believe LE will successfully establish per interviews of Casey's friends/Lee/George (particularly Lee, who's apparently only willing to go so far for Casey) doesn't hurt any either.
JMO, of course.

Sidenote: Personally, I think Lee loves his sister, but he's had enough.  IMO, he loves his parents and he's unwilling to allow Casey (by her behavior and emotional manipulation) to completely destroy them all.  I do, in an extremely miniscule way, admire his candor for at least being the only one to really disclose the true about Cindy and Casey's competitive, controlling, and combative relationship in both his LE and depo statements.  He neither denied it, nor minimized it.  He was careful to walk the fence by not laying blame solely on either.  I appreciated his willingness to stick his neck out in that instance.  **Of course, that doesn't excuse anything else.**  However, for those few fleeting minutes, I felt like he was a human being after all.  I mean, seriously, why did he tell the truth?  He could have just lied like Cindy & George did (MO).  What prompted him to even tell LE that Cindy & Casey had had a physical confrontation with Cindy choking Casey on June 15th?  Fear of the neighbors reporting the disturbance?  I kind of doubt that.  Lee doesn't strike me as the type of person to volunteer damaging info of that magnitude on his family to anyone.  Lee is a study in contrasts, IMO.  We have his raw honesty on a pretty damaging issue contrasted by the whole "C M A" debacle.  Was the "C M A" a tortured cry, resulting from the culmination of the massive havoc Casey had finally wreaked in their lives?  Don't we have some in-house Monkeys who can analyze this guy?             

ISpy, Excellent post(s). I think you are spot on about the duct tape. It was placed over her mouth prior to death or immediately after for the reasons you specified. At the memorial service when Lee made his CMA cry, I believe this was in reference to Caylee because he stated "I won't forget my promise to you." I think that promise to her early on was to find her killer. I have not seen him come to Casey's defense and his behavior has been the least toxic of that family. While Cindy and George were stretching wildly to explain the decomp in the car, the inappropriate partying of Casey, etc. he has been mostly silent. I think he initially believed the kidnapping story but at some point realized it was a fabrication. IMO Lee is far more complicated than his sister and parents and may come close to having a conscience. On the other hand he could simply be using avoidance as his main coping skill. The good Lord knows you would need that if you were a member of this family.

[Blumonkey]

Ispy and Gizzie, my son is LE ...not in Fla. but I ask him some questions and he said as long as the SA does not have the written info from the FBI Bozo can't compel them to produce it. The FBI has their own set of rules and can hold evidence til trial. The SA's can be aware of what they have but as long as they don't have the paper work, Bozo can't make them produce it. I hope that makes sense.

Darla, thank you ! It makes me feel so much better to hear that.

[darla]

You are welcome. I remembered the motion hearing and when my son picked up the kids tonight I ask him about it. I hope it answered a few questions. You guys have a great night. I have got to go to bed...have my eyes propped open trying to catch up on the threads.

[ISpy]

Our area's had several missing persons searches through the years and I think of those people who took/take their free time to search for people they didn't even know, with little to no regard for "What if I find them dead?".  Their first concern was/is finding the person and their second was/is bringing the family some resolution, some measure of relief from the not knowing.  I truly appreciate Tim Miller, Texas Equisearch, and all the many search organizations like them out there.  That takes an incredible amount of caring about about other people.  I don't expect Tim to be Superman.  I know he's a human being just like me.  I'm also well aware he's lost a child in the worst possible way.  I "absolutely" detested that Cindy Anthony felt the need to kick somebody in the teeth, who'd traveled five states to organize hundreds of strangers to look for her granddaughter, when each search must remind him of his own loss.  IMO, her unwarranted attack was motivated by anger and fear...Anger that Tim wasn't buying her & Casey's story and Fear that Tim and Co. might actually find Caylee: in her own neighborhood and with a "plethora" of evidence to convict Casey and maybe them also (Accessory After/Obstruction of Justice/Perjury, etc.).  Cindy clearly perceived Tim Miller as a threat the moment she realized she couldn't control him and the extent of the search...that Tim would search for Caylee period, dead or alive because he personally had to.  At that point, IMO, Cindy was clearly (and frantically) attempting to divert the investigation away from both a deceased Caylee and their neighborhood.  The only way to do so was to attack Tim's credibility.

Very soon, Cindy's going to reap what she sowed back upon herself when she's called to testify in Casey's trial.  It's going to make the Zenaida Gonzales depositions look like a walk in the park.  If she felt pressured (and her extremely defensive behavior clearly showed she did), she hasn't seen anything yet.  IMO, I would not be surprised if she & George are not being coached by Jim Lichtenstein http://www.j2sc.com/jiml.htm because their inability or unwillingness to control themselves in court is a liability to Casey.  I'm 99.99999% positive there have been discussions and advice to that effect between Baez and Conway.  Look at Cindy's latest state depos where Baez is forcefully telling Cindy to "Zip it.".  Baez does not want Cindy to testify in Casey's case, you can bet on it.  So, I think Jim's doing some prep work with Cindy (particularly) and George for Casey's trial.  We'll see.   

[ISpy]

Scatty- Looking for it now.  I'm using a loaner computer tonight-do it may take me a little bit.

Darla- Thank you for asking your son.  I knew I had read something to that effect.  Have a good evening/morning!

[ISpy]

Blumonkey-  Good points!  I hope you're right about the Lee "C M A"-promise to Caylee thing.  You're more willing than I am to give him the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe I need to work on that.  You do have a good point though.  He's far more forthcoming than anyone else in the family.  I've been of the opinion he's been willing to cover for Casey on other stuff, but he's not going to cover for her this time and he's definitely not willing to go to jail for her (as in perjury)...unlike George & Cindy.  JMO  I think, based on his ZG and LE depo statements (as well as his initial LE interview), he was suspicious and doubted Casey from the get-go.  He knows her best and accurately read her behavior (as evidenced by his own statements and his responses to her in her first call to home from jail-also why she refused to talk to him).  However, I think he honestly believed for awhile that Casey was either: 1. hiding Caylee with a friend and made up the kidnapping story to get back at Cindy or 2. Casey had given Caylee away/sold her.  I think he was going with option #1.  However, somewhere along the line, I do think he crossed over to Casey's side, with the jail code speak, the high-five with Casey for eluding reporters, repeating the fatherhood story to reporters, and playing junior detective with Dominic Casey.  Although, after Caylee was found, he really did try to play straight in the ZG depos, without coming right out and accusing Casey though.  I think he's somewhat between a rock and a hard place, as far as Casey goes.  He's unwilling to, in effect, destroy her because he does love her and he's "carried" her for years, but he can no longer defend her either.  He knew she was manipulating and self-serving, but even he didn't think she'd actually kill Caylee.  So, I think you're right-he just tries to avoid it as much as he can.  JMO