Elizabeth Olten #1 10/22/09 - 10/29/09

[MuffyBee]

What on earth would cause a 15 yo to do such a thing?

I can give you a couple reasons, but I'm not sure I'm welcome here.  I'd love to have a serious discussion about this with someone who really cares about the psychological makeup of a 15 year old girl who would resort to murder. 

What I'm not interested in or impressed by is the way some people 'investigate' case details with no bearing on the outcome. 

Hi there.  Unless they are 'investigated' (as you said it), how is it to be known that the details have no bearing on the outcome?

Well...how are you going to investigate a case when you are not privy to the important facts that will ultimately determine the outcome?

(bolded by me)

Are you saying there aren't people here smart enough to dialog with you?  We've been down that road before.  Those that think they know more than others.  They usually go and form a special private invite only forum.  Sound familiar, monkeys?    There are many monkeys from many walks of life here, and they all have something important to add.  And you jme, have only added to our entertainment tonight.   

[jme]

I still have not seen the Huffington Post about the site Elizabeth was found at.

What is it that you want to know about where she was found?

I would like to know how bloodhounds, cadaver dogs, two searchs in the area and nothing was found.  How can 15 year old outsmart all the tools that LE had in searching?

I would like to know how you know her body was even there when they were searching?

So you are saying that a 15 yr old possibly snuck out in the two days that volunteers and LE from more than one jurisdiction was searching a specific area and managed to retrieve and hide the body with no one noticing?  And that this 15 year old could move a 108lb 5'2 limp body so stealthily?

 
Nope.  I'm saying how do you know?

[klaasend]

Can I get an explanation as to why Nancy Grace should be covering this, or anything for that matter?

I'm not here to start drama.  I'm curious.

I live in Jeff City and I certainly did not know half of what I know now after reading some of the things I've been reading on the internet.  Elizabeth's body has been found, she isn't missing anymore.  NONE of you have anything but speculation and frankly it is just not anyone's place to be so involved in the investigation.

This is not just a news story, it's reality for a bunch of kids, their parents - a real community.  I personally do not want to know the details of her murder.  I could care less who did it so long as he/she/IT is found, convicted and sentenced; but finding out who the 'POI' is seems like a game for some people -why?

It seems that people like Nancy Grace feed the fire and fuel off of tragedy. She makes it dramatic for her ratings.  She wants fame so she can have a profit.. It is sad. 

We follow a lot of cases.  Sometimes we find things that help law enforcement in their investigation.  We offer support to each other, because we all want to know WHY these things happen, and want to know if there is anything we can do to make them happen less often.

Because we have followed a lot of these cases, we have seen how different LE departments handle these things, and, frankly, there are things in this case that could bear further scrutiny.  They found Elizabeth's phone Thursday morning.  Her body was "in the vicinity" of her phone, but it took more than 24 hours after that to find her body?  Somebody missed something they should not have.  We also heard that assistance from a larger and more experienced investigative body was turned down.  That is never a good sign.

We are also concerned about the School Board.  We have not heard that counsellors were provided to the POI's school.  Why?  Do they not think it's traumatic for the high school kids to know that their classmate is accused of such a heinous crime?  And what about the death of the teacher?  When my husband died in similar circumstances, counsellors were provided for students at his school, because losing a teacher under such circumstances can be traumatic, also.  The school board seems to be in CYA mode--"It didn't happen on school grounds...it's an isolated incident...it's not our fault..."

Yes, we speculate.  We speculate based on available facts.  It is our Constitutional right so to do.  We are not like the people on the news sites advocating execution without a trial, and why not string up the POI's family while we are at it. 

Do you think we should all just pack up our tents and leave because her body was found?  What dirty laundry in Jefferson County are you afraid of seeing exposed to the light of day?

We KNOW who the POI is.  But we are not posting that, because she is a minor and we are concerned for her rights and for the legitimacy of the trial that is to come.

But, most of all, Jme, WE CARE.  We care about every lost and murdered child we hear about, and we want to see JUSTICE for that child and his or her family.

BUMP because like Anna's this is an excellent post/point.

[higherhopes]

Thats just it JME, we dont know alot of things, but we try to find out, we try to make sense of this awful thing that has happened, we try to find out why it did, we try to find out a lot of sifferent stuff,     See I never thought about a fifteen year old that would kill a 9 year old, but I am  amember of SM and by being a member here I follow these cases and otherwise I may have never heard about this case because I dont watch alot of TV, so now that I know about this case and what I have been able to learn here at SM about it.........well, ........now if I should see a older child and a younger child walking into the woods together, well maybe I might just stop and ask the child.....is there a problem, are you alright with this, do you know this person, do you want to go into the woods with this person , all these things I just might do now, when before I might not have thought a thing about it.........we learn different things here at SM, that might help in the future......its what we do.....its what we have always done...

[fatcatlurker]

The other question that I have is if in fact she wants all the attention, why did she not leave breadcrumbs so that she did not outsmart LE for two days?  Why did it take a 3rd juvenile to hand LE written notes before they realized that there was foul play involved?  Does not seem to me the way you get attention.

That is because you're not a murderer.  We can not speculate what was going through her mind this early in the game. It does not do a bit of good..JMO

Oh so I suppose LE is not speculating what was going thru the childs head while she was possibly harming and hiding another child?  Gee let's not do that, what are you a lawyer?

[KCJackie]

What on earth would cause a 15 yo to do such a thing?

I can give you a couple reasons, but I'm not sure I'm welcome here.  I'd love to have a serious discussion about this with someone who really cares about the psychological makeup of a 15 year old girl who would resort to murder. 

What I'm not interested in or impressed by is the way some people 'investigate' case details with no bearing on the outcome. 

Hi there.  Unless they are 'investigated' (as you said it), how is it to be known that the details have no bearing on the outcome?

Well...how are you going to investigate a case when you are not privy to the important facts that will ultimately determine the outcome?

(bolded by me)

Are you saying there aren't people here smart enough to dialog with you?  We've been down that road before.  Those that think they know more than others.  They usually go and form a special private invite only forum.  Sound familiar, monkeys?    There are many monkeys from many walks of life here, and they all have something important to add.  And you jme, have only added to our entertainment tonight.   

   Reminds me of Bella.


Muffy - I am still laughing so hard that you actually used the red finger emoticon.  Go Muffy.... 

[San]

Can I get an explanation as to why Nancy Grace should be covering this, or anything for that matter?

I'm not here to start drama.  I'm curious.

I live in Jeff City and I certainly did not know half of what I know now after reading some of the things I've been reading on the internet.  Elizabeth's body has been found, she isn't missing anymore.  NONE of you have anything but speculation and frankly it is just not anyone's place to be so involved in the investigation.

This is not just a news story, it's reality for a bunch of kids, their parents - a real community.  I personally do not want to know the details of her murder.  I could care less who did it so long as he/she/IT is found, convicted and sentenced; but finding out who the 'POI' is seems like a game for some people -why?

It seems that people like Nancy Grace feed the fire and fuel off of tragedy. She makes it dramatic for her ratings.  She wants fame so she can have a profit.. It is sad. 

We follow a lot of cases.  Sometimes we find things that help law enforcement in their investigation.  We offer support to each other, because we all want to know WHY these things happen, and want to know if there is anything we can do to make them happen less often.

Because we have followed a lot of these cases, we have seen how different LE departments handle these things, and, frankly, there are things in this case that could bear further scrutiny.  They found Elizabeth's phone Thursday morning.  Her body was "in the vicinity" of her phone, but it took more than 24 hours after that to find her body?  Somebody missed something they should not have.  We also heard that assistance from a larger and more experienced investigative body was turned down.  That is never a good sign.

We are also concerned about the School Board.  We have not heard that counsellors were provided to the POI's school.  Why?  Do they not think it's traumatic for the high school kids to know that their classmate is accused of such a heinous crime?  And what about the death of the teacher?  When my husband died in similar circumstances, counsellors were provided for students at his school, because losing a teacher under such circumstances can be traumatic, also.  The school board seems to be in CYA mode--"It didn't happen on school grounds...it's an isolated incident...it's not our fault..."

Yes, we speculate.  We speculate based on available facts.  It is our Constitutional right so to do.  We are not like the people on the news sites advocating execution without a trial, and why not string up the POI's family while we are at it. 

Do you think we should all just pack up our tents and leave because her body was found?  What dirty laundry in Jefferson County are you afraid of seeing exposed to the light of day?

We KNOW who the POI is.  But we are not posting that, because she is a minor and we are concerned for her rights and for the legitimacy of the trial that is to come.

But, most of all, Jme, WE CARE.  We care about every lost and murdered child we hear about, and we want to see JUSTICE for that child and his or her family.

BUMP because like Anna's this is an excellent post/point.

I agree.

[jme]

Thats just it JME, we dont know alot of things, but we try to find out, we try to make sense of this awful thing that has happened, we try to find out why it did, we try to find out a lot of sifferent stuff,     See I never thought about a fifteen year old that would kill a 9 year old, but I am  amember of SM and by being a member here I follow these cases and otherwise I may have never heard about this case because I dont watch alot of TV, so now that I know about this case and what I have been able to learn here at SM about it.........well, ........now if I should see a older child and a younger child walking into the woods together, well maybe I might just stop and ask the child.....is there a problem, are you alright with this, do you know this person, do you want to go into the woods with this person , all these things I just might do now, when before I might not have thought a thing about it.........we learn different things here at SM, that might help in the future......its what we do.....its what we have always done...

Thank you.

[Northern Rose]

The other question that I have is if in fact she wants all the attention, why did she not leave breadcrumbs so that she did not outsmart LE for two days?  Why did it take a 3rd juvenile to hand LE written notes before they realized that there was foul play involved?  Does not seem to me the way you get attention.

That is because you're not a murderer.  We can not speculate what was going through her mind this early in the game. It does not do a bit of good..JMO

You are correct , I am not a murderer.  You however stated that she wanted the ATTENTION.  So I am trying to have an honest discussion on how that could be if she did not turn herself in nor leave any evidence that LE could find and LE went on pressers everyday saying there were no signs of foul play.  IIRC LE even stated that Elizabeth may not even be in the area on Friday morning.  Does not seem like a good way to get attention if no one can find what you did.  What do you think?

[Anna]

jme, our opinions have no effect on the outcome.  We simply discuss and share what information we do have.  I come here for daily updates on several missing persons cases as someone during the course of the day will have posted a link to any new information released.

Some of these posters can find just about anything on social networking sites.  But basically it intent is to offer support for justice for the victims.

[Northern Rose]

The other question that I have is if in fact she wants all the attention, why did she not leave breadcrumbs so that she did not outsmart LE for two days?  Why did it take a 3rd juvenile to hand LE written notes before they realized that there was foul play involved?  Does not seem to me the way you get attention.

That is because you're not a murderer.  We can not speculate what was going through her mind this early in the game. It does not do a bit of good..JMO

Oh so I suppose LE is not speculating what was going thru the childs head while she was possibly harming and hiding another child?  Gee let's not do that, what are you a lawyer?

I was wondering that myself.   Is Bobo still in FL?

[Fanny Mae]

What on earth would cause a 15 yo to do such a thing?

I can give you a couple reasons, but I'm not sure I'm welcome here.  I'd love to have a serious discussion about this with someone who really cares about the psychological makeup of a 15 year old girl who would resort to murder. 

What I'm not interested in or impressed by is the way some people 'investigate' case details with no bearing on the outcome. 

Hi there.  Unless they are 'investigated' (as you said it), how is it to be known that the details have no bearing on the outcome?

Well...how are you going to investigate a case when you are not privy to the important facts that will ultimately determine the outcome?

(bolded by me)

Are you saying there aren't people here smart enough to dialog with you?  We've been down that road before.  Those that think they know more than others.  They usually go and form a special private invite only forum.  Sound familiar, monkeys?    There are many monkeys from many walks of life here, and they all have something important to add.  And you jme, have only added to our entertainment tonight.   

   Reminds me of Bella.


Muffy - I am still laughing so hard that you actually used the red finger emoticon.  Go Muffy.... 

We're not going to be locked down for 3 hours again, are we??

KLAAS, you stay right where you are, ok? Promise? 

[fatcatlurker]

ok I'm feeling like I got "punked" now.

JME you speculate - obviously -  so do we.

So what do you speculate about the premeditation aspect of this crime?

[Northern Rose]

I still have not seen the Huffington Post about the site Elizabeth was found at.

What is it that you want to know about where she was found?

I would like to know how bloodhounds, cadaver dogs, two searches in the area and nothing was found.  How can 15 year old outsmart all the tools that LE had in searching?

I would like to know how you know her body was even there when they were searching?

So you are saying that a 15 yr old possibly snuck out in the two days that volunteers and LE from more than one jurisdiction was searching a specific area and managed to retrieve and hide the body with no one noticing?  And that this 15 year old could move a 108lb 5'2 limp body so stealthily?

 
Nope.  I'm saying how do you know?

You asked what we wanted to know about where she was found.  I asked valid questions and have received nothing but questions back.  Seems we will get dizzy going in circles.

[MyView]

Well damn, I missed out on welcoming JME !

[Fanny Mae]

The other question that I have is if in fact she wants all the attention, why did she not leave breadcrumbs so that she did not outsmart LE for two days?  Why did it take a 3rd juvenile to hand LE written notes before they realized that there was foul play involved?  Does not seem to me the way you get attention.

That is because you're not a murderer.  We can not speculate what was going through her mind this early in the game. It does not do a bit of good..JMO

Oh so I suppose LE is not speculating what was going thru the childs head while she was possibly harming and hiding another child?  Gee let's not do that, what are you a lawyer?

I was wondering that myself.   Is Bobo still in FL?

Oh NORTHERNROSE, my fever just spiked!!!! 

[fatcatlurker]

This is all I can find on HuffPost is there something I am missing? 

Elizabeth's body was found Friday � two days after she went missing � after the suspect led police to a wooded area near her home west of Jefferson City. Cole County Sheriff Greg White said Saturday that the girl was found in an area that had previously been searched but she had been "very well concealed."

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/23/elizabeth-olten-dead-body_n_332180.html

[Anna]

We cannot possibly "investigate" as LE does because we don't have access to all the evidence that they do.  That is not our intent.  Our form of investigation is combing through all the available information and staying as informed as possible.  Sometimes we even find something of assistance to LE and it is forwarded to them pronto.

There are many, many of us and some capable of coordinating information in a very concise way.  And some can find anything on social networking sites.  Some have participated in searches with orgs like TES.

We write to legislators striving to have laws enacted to better protect the innocent. 

But the forum would not be here if not for the effort of Klaas and the mods and Red the Owner.  That's one thing we don't do is diss them.  At least no one will for very long, lol.

[Northern Rose]

The other question that I have is if in fact she wants all the attention, why did she not leave breadcrumbs so that she did not outsmart LE for two days?  Why did it take a 3rd juvenile to hand LE written notes before they realized that there was foul play involved?  Does not seem to me the way you get attention.

That is because you're not a murderer.  We can not speculate what was going through her mind this early in the game. It does not do a bit of good..JMO

Oh so I suppose LE is not speculating what was going thru the childs head while she was possibly harming and hiding another child?  Gee let's not do that, what are you a lawyer?

I was wondering that myself.   Is Bobo still in FL?

Oh NORTHERNROSE, my fever just spiked!!!! 

nanners

[Fanny Mae]

ok I'm feeling like I got "punked" now.

JME you speculate - obviously -  so do we.

So what do you speculate about the premeditation aspect of this crime?

Well, if we got punked, when is the funny part??