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Author Topic: Elizabeth Olten #3 11/18/09 -  (Read 574182 times)
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Wyks
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« Reply #1000 on: November 24, 2009, 04:13:44 AM »

Alyssa seems to me to be a master manipulater.  If anything, in therapy she will be facing a whole lot of different issues to deal with.  But will she deal with them?     Am thinking not.  Because of the manipulative aspect she has shown. 

She may truly be severely depressed, anxious.  She seems to have a lot of rage, not just anger, at the world, her family, herself.  She seems to crave attention, and may have realized that to get the kind of attention she needs, she acts out in the craziest of ways, the more negative the better. 

That having been said, do I think she is insane?  Nope.  And again, because of the manipulative aspect.  She knows what she has (allegedly) done to Elizabeth was wrong.  That can be seen in her statements on her myspace, "I should have gone to church."  And digging two graves a week ahead of time shows premeditation.  These are not the words/actions of an insane person. 

I wouldn't at all be surprised if she ends up being diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, conduct disorder, oppositional defiant, etc etc etc.  Still doesn't mean that she's insane.  What it means is that someone a LONG TIME AGO *should have* seen the signs that were very obvious even back as early as 6 or 7 years old, even perhaps younger.  They had to have been, in order for her to be at this place in her life.  She didn't get this way overnight.   

Not that much could have been done back then.  And not that much can be done now.  The manipulation by Alyssa will likely get in the way of any treatment that has been or ever will be available to her.  Conduct order, (desperately trying to get treatment for, or left untreated), is what develops into anti-social personality.  And that is what, as an adult, we see in such folks as Drew Peterson and Casey Anthony, etc. 

And my oldest son.... which is how I know.  Altho he hasn't killed anyone.... yet.  And that with having had him in therapy since he was 6 years old.  The best doctor in California that we could find, still wasn't good enough to sway his seeming hell-bent intent to become ... someone very scary.  I kind of doubt that Alyssa's family could have swayed her either.  I just don't know how much was done to try, in her case. 

Alyssa's defense atty's job is to try anything that might work to have her excused on a technicality, insanity defense, or play on the sympathy of others, etc etc.  Doesn't mean it will work tho.  I just don't know how good her atty will be at convincing others.  But as others have already said, won't be right if it does work!  Justice cannot be brought for Elizabeth if manipulation wins out!   

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Wyks
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« Reply #1001 on: November 24, 2009, 04:23:15 AM »

What I would like to know is what is on the end of that knife? It appears to be blood...probably fake but it is still disturbing.  Does anyone know where that pic might have been taken?

Good question!  Probably, as you said, fake.... but yes, disturbing.  Could be what she intended tho.  To get that kind of reaction in others. 
   
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« Reply #1002 on: November 24, 2009, 06:30:34 AM »


Thank you KarenK
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bigmoney
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« Reply #1003 on: November 24, 2009, 07:52:27 AM »

Bustamante on 24 hour suicide watch

JEFFERSON CITY, MO. -- The accused murderer of 9 year-old Elizabeth Olten is still in a county jail as her public defender tries to get her admitted to a mental hospital.

Court documents show that 15 year-old Alyssa Bustamante is on 24 hour suicide watch at the Morgan County jail.


Her attorney tells the judge that she is demonstrating signs of severe depression and anxiety. He wants her admitted for psychological treatment immediately.

Before being arrested for murder, Bustamante was undergoing intense treatment for suicidal tendencies, but today, one of her friends told national media that Bustamante talked about killing others as well.

“In one conversation that we had back in January, she pulled me aside and basically told me ‘I wonder what it would be like to kill somebody.’” Bustamante’s friend said. “I thought it was kind of strange but I just dismissed. I guess, I wouldn't really think that my best friend would do that."

Meanwhile, new photos obtained appear to show a teenager troubled and typical at the same time. One shows Bustamante with cuts on her wrist and fake blood around her mouth. While another one shows Bustamante with a stuffed animal on her head.

If convicted, Bustamante, who will be tried as an adult, could spend the rest of her life behind bars.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?id=381266

From the link above:



That wrist looks pretty cut up.
yes, that looks like lots and lots of cuts AND scars piled up. I think she has been doint that for quite awhile.
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theboyzmom
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« Reply #1004 on: November 24, 2009, 08:05:19 AM »


<<<<snip>>>>>

Quote from you "People who practice 'cutting' are disturbed, but not insane."You are not being very empathetic to the situation as a whole.  I say that as a former cutter (and not disturbed) And I say that as a surviving victim of a murder. She needs to be put in a hospital for the rest of her life not a prison. . .  She may not be insane but maybe a little sociopathic and I do not say that with ease.




TiskTisk - I am sorry for all you have gone through. The part that I bolded strikes me. As someone that has faced the evil of a psychopath and as a result have studied them, I STRONGLY disagree with your statements. Being a little psychopathic (which is  synonymous with psychopath) is like being a little pregnant. Some people are narcissistic but not sociopaths. But a true sociopath is not a "little" sociopaths. They may melt into the background well, but when cornered by not getting their way they are dangerous. Add to that the fact that sociopathy is NOT TREATABLE and placing her in a hospital is worthless. The research seems to show that psychopaths get more dangerous with treatment. The only good place (sort of a grave) for this monster is jail where she can not hurt the general public.

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« Reply #1005 on: November 24, 2009, 08:09:08 AM »

What I would like to know is what is on the end of that knife? It appears to be blood...probably fake but it is still disturbing.  Does anyone know where that pic might have been taken?
  fake blood. Taken at a church youth group function
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trimmonthelake
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« Reply #1006 on: November 24, 2009, 09:14:59 AM »

Nancy Grace Transcripts  11/23/09
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0911/23/ng.01.html
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« Reply #1007 on: November 24, 2009, 09:19:04 AM »


RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the question isn`t premeditation. That`s if it was impulse murder or passion murder. This one is, Is she crazy? Is she insane? Look at the pictures you`re putting on TV right now. She blurred the lines of fantasy and reality inextricably. She crossed the lines back and forth. There`s no question she couldn`t separate reality from fantasy. That`s one of the main ways to prove that she was insane. This wasn`t temporary insanity, this might be permanent insanity.

BROOKS: But you know, I want to bring in Pat Brown, joining us from D.C., criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport." Pat...

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Yes. I`m disagreeing with that last statement wholeheartedly. Look, she knew exactly what the difference between fantasy and reality was. The problem is, she was bored with fantasy and she wanted reality. She wanted to find out what it felt like to kill somebody because she wanted the real thing.

And if you go by that argument, that because she had a bad background, because she has these disturbing thoughts, that she`s mentally ill, well, then Anthony Sowell, who knocked off all those women and buried them in his house, that guy, the serial killer, is just thinking just the same way, well, then he`s -- well, we`ll just put him in a mental institution, too. Let`s put all serial killers in a mental institution.

This girl was on her way to becoming a serial killer. Two graves. She had in her head another body for the future. That would make her a serial killer. She`s a cold-blooded psychopath, and nobody`s recognizing it!

BROOKS: And Pat, it`s thought that she lured this 9-year-old girl into the woods after digging two graves in the woods the day before!

BROWN: Absolutely. This was totally planned out. She knew exactly what she was doing. And by the way, Mike, those -- even that suicide attempt and all that stuff, those aren`t cries for help, those are cries for attention. She likes to manipulate people. And my guess is the problem is people minimized a lot of the things she did in the past -- pathological lying, manipulation, lack of remorse, no empathy, all of that minimized as she was growing up, and she turned into a cold-blooded killer at the age of 15.

But that`s what she is, and she`s not treatable. So you put her in a mental institution, give her all the help you want, and she is what she is and she`s not going to change.
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« Reply #1008 on: November 24, 2009, 09:57:47 AM »

IMO Here again I am going to defend the grandparents. I do not know what their life was like, but I do know the trials and tribulations of a grandparent taking on raising their grandchildren. No matter how much love and nurturing a grandparent gives their grandchildren they are and never will never be the child's parent. The child always wonders WHY. Why did my parents not love me enough to...... I must really have been a bad child or my parents would not have thrown me away like trash. I have had my granddaughter for over 6 years and she is only 9. Even at this young age she knows the difference and she wonders. Also in the defense of the grandparents, they could have done everything right and this child could have still did what she did.

I think that Alyssa was a spoiled little brat and felt that everything should go her way. I think that she was a "I want attention" cutter. I think that it kept escalating, I would imagine that if we knew her whole story that it went from temper tantrums to murder. I think that when her Aunt go married that she was really disturbed by the Aunt getting all of the attention. You guys do a lot of research on murderers. I know that you have found a lot of them had very normal lives and no one saw it coming.

On a last note. Whatever happened to hospitals for the criminally insane???
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« Reply #1009 on: November 24, 2009, 11:07:26 AM »

TiskTisk, first I couldn't even begin to understand the horrible heartache of having a loved one murdered, all I can say is I'm very sorry for your loss. But I do know about cutting, and my thoughts are with you  an angelic monkey  Wyks thank-you for posting about cutting, and yes, it should be taken very seriously. Lenie I also think Alyssa's grandparents were doing what they could for her, otherwise why have all that therapy for her, they must care, imo.
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« Reply #1010 on: November 24, 2009, 11:16:30 AM »

I respectfully disagree, on being raised by grandparents. I was rasied my my grandmom and thank God for it everyday. Even when I was very small I choose my grandma. I enjoyed spending time with my mom, but in the end I wanted to go back to my mema...

 I do know many kids raised by grandparents resent it, but I know many of us  who do not. I always felt LOTSA love.. I knew my mom loved me(the best she could she is bipolar) and I knew my mema loved me alot, unconditionally...I felt like she choose me also. My mema I guess had more patients..YES I tried her last nerve every chance I got, but she did not"loose it" and scream hollar and cuss me, and sometimes even beat the crap outta me like mom did.. (she did this very very rarely when she was manic) My grandma also taught me to pray for momma, and I did, and through the years things got better. Or maybe I just learned to live the life I was given..

 I do agree grandparents do not know how to handle alot of the "issues" facing teens and kids today. I think it may also be a factor with kids rasied by granparents..of more rivalry, I had an aunt and uncle not much older then me..we are very close now, but when I was younger I was jealous of them,because mema was MINE MINE MINE...and I also has"issues" with my cousins, mema's other grandkids..cause once again mema was MINE..

 But as I got older I choose to NOT do alot of things I knew would hurt my mema(drugs alcohol etc) I did NOT do those things becasue I respected my grandma and how she raised me, and I never ever wanted to hurt her.

 I guess this is why this case bugs me so bad.. Alyssa and I had very similar childhoods, my mom wasnt into drugs, but I went thru years of her alcohol abuse, as I got older having to go pul her outta bars. I never knew my dad till I was 28, cause he was in and out of jail and drugs etc.. I also suffered from teen depression, and think mema handled it the best, she would tell me (as many here say) Put on your big girl panties and quit moping around" She put me to work, and I didnt have time to be depressed anymore. I lost the only dad "figure" I had at 16, my step dad, who was also into drugs and alcohol, and got killed in a bad drug deal.

 I was a little confused about the grandparents when we thought they whisked her off that wednesday night, because that looked like a cover up(something mema wouldhave never done for me..lol right after she beat the tar outta me wirh her house slipper she would have carried met o the police) But since it now appears they did not do that I think they did the best they could, with what they had to work with..

Srry for the rambling!!! As always just my humble opinion!!!
 
 
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« Reply #1011 on: November 24, 2009, 11:56:37 AM »

A Hatchet?
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« Reply #1012 on: November 24, 2009, 12:13:12 PM »

TxsFlame I am sorry if I came across that I meant that the kids resent it. I just meant that I know that their are questions as to why in a lot of cases. I hope and pray every day that I can be the kind of Mom that your Mema was to you. Sammi calls us Mom and Dad and seems to have no regrets about being here. She says that God knew that Phil and I could not have anymore kids so He let her bio mom carry her until she was ready and then He sent her to us. Smile
One day Sammi was having a very bad day and she started to cry for what seemed to me no particular reason. When I finally got her to talk about it she said she could not understand what she had done to make her birth parents not want her. They have no and I mean absolutely no excuse not to be raising their children. No mental disorders, no drug or alcohol problems, just plain out and out selfishness.

 I am terribly sorry if I came across that way I did not mean to.
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« Reply #1013 on: November 24, 2009, 12:19:25 PM »

A Hatchet?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mohawk-SKULL-Pirate-Knife-Hatchet-Silver-Necklace-LOT_W0QQitemZ360204565505QQcategoryZ92758QQcmdZViewItem

I guess they do sell such things..... bleh
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« Reply #1014 on: November 24, 2009, 12:33:08 PM »

Those necklaces have been popular for quite awhile.
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trimmonthelake
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« Reply #1015 on: November 24, 2009, 12:37:00 PM »


I have never seen one of those before.Learn something new everyday.
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« Reply #1016 on: November 24, 2009, 12:55:36 PM »

It wasn't the link that was posted, but one day my daughter was looking at different jewelry on some site, and there was all kinds of odd necklaces, that I suppose would attract a younger person, of course there was none on there that I would wear. And if I did I sure would look stupid wearing that at my age.
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« Reply #1017 on: November 24, 2009, 01:22:01 PM »

    I don't know how I missed it before but Shinju gave us the final piece. I now know BF name however can find NO web tracks at all.  From what was stated he was a new BF of only 2 weeks do don't know how involved he could have been.
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« Reply #1018 on: November 24, 2009, 01:30:46 PM »

If that is a hatchet I feel this is ONE MORE THING the grandparents chose to ignore. The money she has had to come from them or she could not buy such things. On the cutting of wrist if you bend your hand way downward lots of little creases appear and I think that is what you are seeing in the photo. Not cut marks. Try that pose yourself with thumb extended.

I still say the GP did not bother to check up on her and talk to her counsellors about what she was posting. She has tracks of violence all over the web.
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« Reply #1019 on: November 24, 2009, 01:54:19 PM »

This girl is going to play the game and she will get off on an insanity charge. She won't kill herself. She has had plenty of time to do that over the years. Look at her wrists...I bet she cuts her legs too and probably her stomach. I bet she is loaded with scars. People who practice 'cutting' are disturbed, but not insane. This girl will waltz her way right into a mental hospital and will be released within 2 years....mark my words. She will not be punished for the premeditated murder of  Elizabeth Olten. This girl will basically walk. How wrong is that....  There will be no justice for Elizabeth ....

She belongs in prison for the rest of her days. If I had my way....she would fry tomorrow.

Quote from you "People who practice 'cutting' are disturbed, but not insane."You are not being very empathetic to the situation as a whole.I say that as a former cutter (and not disturbed) And I say that as a surviving victim of a murder.I know Murder My father was murdered.you wanna check here it is the link.http://al.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.%5CAL%5CPLS%5C1991%5C19910517_0013.AL.htm/qx I see both sides which I see you can not. I know how murder effects a family (I LIVED IT) And I know what it is like to be crying and feel alone because the adults in your life are to busy to realize you can't deal with your own problems!So you cut to make your self feel real. Look what she did is Wrong!!! Once you cross that bridge you can not go back.Stop JUDGING and Start LEARNING. She needs to be put in a hospital for the rest of her life not a prison. 
And there I said it. I am sorry to all of the fellow monkeys if me saying that upsets you. You have all been very intelligent and open minded to me and what I have ever had to say ... (Thank You ) She may not be insane but maybe a little sociopathic and I do not say that with ease. The person that murdered my father was a sociopath.I myself can not understand it And I shouldn't (hints I am not one ) ;p Hell I cry at commercials!!!! Here is the definition to those who are not aware;

Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.
sociopath
I feel pain on both sides of this case because I have been on both sides. There can still be Justice for Beautiful Elizabeth (which there should be) But lets not forget the bigger picture.If the adults in the life of Alyssa had been a lil more "hands on" I know they paid for a Doctor to talk to her but what about her parents!!! She was given away to her grandparents because her birth parents were to wrapped up in their own selfishness. If They had just gotten their shit straight long enough to give her what she needed. THIS MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED!!! Some murders are born that way ,yet some are created from what they have been given.
I am sorry I got a bit fired up by that comment.....This case effects me ...In more ways than one. A child had been taken by another child that was forgotten long ago.Alyssa lived in a nice big house that I am sure kept her grandparents working a lot.Children don't need big houses or swimming pools , or pool tables etc.They need family and communication and morals that you cant expect you Sunday school teacher to teach them or a preacher to preach to them. You have to show them by spending time and molding that child.My grandmother (god rest her soul) stood up in the court room in the face of her own son's killers and said "I don't want another mother to lose her child like I did " She pushed for just life and not death.It is a sad sad day that is this day. If you can not have empathy for your fellow man what does that make you... I will tell you .... it makes you no better


You feel better now?? Don't you ever blast me again for 'judging and being ignorant of the situation, I am not. You do not know me nor do you know what I have been through and none of you ever will. AB is NOT IMO a sociopath, she's a cold blooded psychopath...and if she does NOT go to prison w/o the possibility of parole OR given the death penalty and is sentenced to the Psych Ward it certainly would NOT be for life. She is not insane. I have no empathy for ANYONE who murders a child. If she ever goes free, she will kill again.

I can see I am done in here or my Scared Monkeys days will be over. One strike you are OUT! She will kill again.
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