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Author Topic: Elizabeth Olten #3 11/18/09 -  (Read 574908 times)
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arrivaderci
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« Reply #1060 on: November 24, 2009, 11:48:24 PM »

Let's all say a prayer that justice will be done in this case, I'm hearing a lot of back and forth on whether or not this girl is insane, or just cold blooded, well honestly, it doesn't really matter. She is a danger, plain and simple. Rationally, I do not think any of us will ever be able to understand why such an awful event took place or just want it is that lead AB to do such evil things, there really is no explanation other than she did something horrible, and she needs to be removed from society where she cannot hurt again, because she will hurt again, this is evidenced by her digging TWO graves, not one but TWO..She wasn't going to stop at one, she intended to keep going. Sociopath, or pyschopath, it really matters very little to me, because in her comment of "just wanted to see what it felt like.." I don't see how that can be rehabilitated out of her, it's very very sad. And we as a nation are left at a loss with what to do with this 15 year old CHILD, who is also a MURDERER, its incomprehensible. I don't know the answer, I only hope and pray that a jury does, and sees this case for what it truly is..

A big THANK YOU to everyone who continually finds new information on this case, I am not so good at all this digging around, so I rarely have something new to bring to the table except for my opinions, but you all are fighting for elizabeth, and many many people are praying because you are keeping the story alive, THANK YOU
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Jan_in_Tx
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« Reply #1061 on: November 25, 2009, 12:09:33 AM »

Just checking in...I started a new job last week so haven't had much time to post, but I've been lurking every night.  Hope everyone has a blessed Thanksgiving with their families. Praying for the Olten's too. RIP sweet angel...  an angelic monkey Elizabeth
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Wyks
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« Reply #1062 on: November 25, 2009, 12:29:50 AM »

Remember when Alyssa's former atty said this: 

(bolded by me)

"There's been a lot of speculation, but now we will have in giant headlines my client's name," Valentine said. "There is no way in the world that could possibly be in the best interest of this particular juvenile."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570055,00.html

That was about a month ago, and he was referring to not wanting a hearing to be open to the public.  He also didn't want the gender or name released.  It seems to many of us that this atty wanted 'his client' to be treated special.  And his choice of words "... this particular juvenile" seemed verrrrrrrrrry odd.  IMO, those words alone brought extra attention to his client.

It was those choice of words that made many of us sit up and go huh??  Why would he say that?  Just who the heck was this juvenile?  What about this juvenile was sooooo unique? 

We learned the gender, her name, who her grandparents are, etc.  She isn't a Kennedy, don't think she's related to the town mayor, the state governor, or the president of the USA.  In fact, I can't for the life of me figure out just what is so friggin unique about her, that would merit being referred to as "this particular juvenile".  Has anyone else? 

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« Reply #1063 on: November 25, 2009, 12:40:54 AM »

Remember when Alyssa's former atty said this: 

(bolded by me)

"There's been a lot of speculation, but now we will have in giant headlines my client's name," Valentine said. "There is no way in the world that could possibly be in the best interest of this particular juvenile."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570055,00.html

That was about a month ago, and he was referring to not wanting a hearing to be open to the public.  He also didn't want the gender or name released.  It seems to many of us that this atty wanted 'his client' to be treated special.  And his choice of words "... this particular juvenile" seemed verrrrrrrrrry odd.  IMO, those words alone brought extra attention to his client.

It was those choice of words that made many of us sit up and go huh??  Why would he say that?  Just who the heck was this juvenile?  What about this juvenile was sooooo unique? 

We learned the gender, her name, who her grandparents are, etc.  She isn't a Kennedy, don't think she's related to the town mayor, the state governor, or the president of the USA.  In fact, I can't for the life of me figure out just what is so friggin unique about her, that would merit being referred to as "this particular juvenile".  Has anyone else? 


Nope.  I have found far more things that made Elizabeth special. Elizabeth was kind, she loved anumals, and cared about her family and friends. 
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QueenieB
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« Reply #1064 on: November 25, 2009, 12:51:44 AM »

Last night I caught a repeat of an interesting crime drama.  The teen boy was extremely bright and had a secret desire to kill prostitutes.  He would write about it (and other dark horrible things) and fantasize about it, although he was also extremely tortured by it.  He couldn't understand why he would be obsessed with such a horrible thing and knew he must be crazy.  He even made the comment about feeling their blood dripping on he hands!  He reached out to a few people and asked strange questions or make off-handed comments that raised eyebrows but people dismissed them as strange.  He was so drawn to the fantasy and decided to just do it.  In the case of the show, he was so tortured he ended up stabbing himself instead, but I was shocked at the similarities.  Wondered if this is a psychological profile of a certain type of disturbed individual.

Also, on some level Alyssa had to have been reaching out for help or something.  Who says that kind of stuff to friends (or anyone!)???  There is a known risk that someone might tell an adult.  If she really had some undesirable urge to kill (which is kind of sounds like she did), I wonder what could have been done.  Well, the fact that she even HAD the desire is messed up for sure.  I just so desperately want to be able to understand this whole mess, how it might have been avoided, IF it could have been avoided (because my brain just wants to believe it could have been)....

just a crazy show and I thought of you Monkeys while I was watching it. 
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nana0567
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« Reply #1065 on: November 25, 2009, 01:56:32 AM »

Remember when Alyssa's former atty said this: 

(bolded by me)

"There's been a lot of speculation, but now we will have in giant headlines my client's name," Valentine said. "There is no way in the world that could possibly be in the best interest of this particular juvenile."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570055,00.html

That was about a month ago, and he was referring to not wanting a hearing to be open to the public.  He also didn't want the gender or name released.  It seems to many of us that this atty wanted 'his client' to be treated special.  And his choice of words "... this particular juvenile" seemed verrrrrrrrrry odd.  IMO, those words alone brought extra attention to his client.

It was those choice of words that made many of us sit up and go huh??  Why would he say that?  Just who the heck was this juvenile?  What about this juvenile was sooooo unique? 

We learned the gender, her name, who her grandparents are, etc.  She isn't a Kennedy, don't think she's related to the town mayor, the state governor, or the president of the USA.  In fact, I can't for the life of me figure out just what is so friggin unique about her, that would merit being referred to as "this particular juvenile".  Has anyone else? 


Nope.  I have found far more things that made Elizabeth special. Elizabeth was kind, she loved anumals, and cared about her family and friends. 
I thought it was cute when I heard someone say Elizabeth wanted to be a mom when she grew up. That's so sweet and typical of a child at her age.
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KarenK
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« Reply #1066 on: November 25, 2009, 02:00:28 AM »

Did anyone see the Dr. Phil show today?It was about a 10 year old boy who was killing animals,goldfish, pushing his mother and trying to hurt her? Dr Phil said get all animals away from him. He is getting them help. If only Alyssa's grandparents could maybe have gotten attention to Alyssa this could all have been averted. I know Dr. Phil is a bag of wind, but he does have a lot of resoures at his disposal and some kind of in patient treatment center may have prevented this. I don't know. But if she is not a psychopath and is insane, perhaps the right meds could help. Prozac is a very benign drug. Not strong at all.   I still don't know why she was left alone with her brothers or other children. She was dangerous to herself and others, and the GP knew as did her counsellors.
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KarenK
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« Reply #1067 on: November 25, 2009, 03:34:12 AM »

I think this will be her defense and it may well be deserved/
Doing research on Prozac and found this:Akathisia was associated with acts of extreme violence in an article in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry, which described three patients who attacked other people or committed murder.17 Other researchers have noted that patients who take Prozac and develop akathisia may, in turn, become preoccupied with thoughts of suicide.18, 19 A 1991 article in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, for example, reports on three patients who attempted suicide during fluoxetine treatment and were then reexposed to the drug. The second time around, all three developed severe akathisia and said the condition made them feel suicidal; they also attributed their previous suicide attempts to akathisia.20

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bigmoney
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« Reply #1068 on: November 25, 2009, 07:53:14 AM »

Remember when Alyssa's former atty said this: 

(bolded by me)

"There's been a lot of speculation, but now we will have in giant headlines my client's name," Valentine said. "There is no way in the world that could possibly be in the best interest of this particular juvenile."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570055,00.html

That was about a month ago, and he was referring to not wanting a hearing to be open to the public.  He also didn't want the gender or name released.  It seems to many of us that this atty wanted 'his client' to be treated special.  And his choice of words "... this particular juvenile" seemed verrrrrrrrrry odd.  IMO, those words alone brought extra attention to his client.

It was those choice of words that made many of us sit up and go huh??  Why would he say that?  Just who the heck was this juvenile?  What about this juvenile was sooooo unique? 

We learned the gender, her name, who her grandparents are, etc.  She isn't a Kennedy, don't think she's related to the town mayor, the state governor, or the president of the USA.  In fact, I can't for the life of me figure out just what is so friggin unique about her, that would merit being referred to as "this particular juvenile".  Has anyone else? 


I never took it to mean that there was something special about his client. I always took it to mean this particular juvenile in this particular (high profile) case. The emphasis being on this particular crime. All attorneys in high profile cases want to limit media exposure to their clients(naturally). This is an extremely inflammatory crime so he doesnt want his clients name/face associated with Elizabeth's murder in the media frenzy prior to a trial.  IT seems to me that this particular sound bite has got more play that it really deserved. JMO
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Northern Rose
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« Reply #1069 on: November 25, 2009, 11:46:15 AM »

Father of Alleged Elizabeth Olten Killer Alyssa Bustamante Has Violent Past

NEW YORK (CBS) Alyssa Bustamante, the teenager who allegedly killed Missouri 9-year-old Elizabeth Olten, grew up in a turbulent household, say friends, and may not be the only Bustamante disposed to violence. Records show her father is a convicted felon.

Police say Alyssa Bustamante strangled, stabbed and cut her next door neighbor Elizabeth Olten's throat in October, then, two days later, led police to the wooded grave where she allegedly buried her.

But long before the alleged murder, Alyssa Bustamante's home life was full of emotional torment, according to court records and friends, who say that Bustamante, 15, was mostly raised by her grandparents while her mother struggled with substance abuse and her father was in jail.

Alyssa Bustamante's grandmother, Karen Brooke, became the girl's legal guardian when she was 7-years-old, according to court records obtained by the Jefferson City News Tribune. She also took on responsibility for Alyssa's two younger brothers, the paper said.

Meanwhile, Alyssa Bustamante's mother, Michelle Bustamante, struggled to pay rent and racked up three misdemeanor criminal convictions, including one for drunken driving and another for marijuana possession, according to court records obtained by the paper.

Her father, 34-year-old Ceaser Bustamante, whose identity was confirmed by the Cole County Sheriff's Dept., is serving three concurrent prison terms for three counts of felony assault in Missouri Eastern Correctional Facility, according to a spokesperson for the Missouri Dept. of Corrections.

Jennifer Meyer, a friend of Alyssa Bustamante's since middle school, told Crimesider in an exclusive Nov. 20 phone interview, that Alyssa's father had been arrested for "stabbing someone." Local police have not yet confirmed that detail to Crimesider.

Alyssa Bustamante also seemed to have a dangerous penchant for knives and cutting.

According to the Associated Press, Bustamante listed her hobbies as "cutting" and "killing people" in her YouTube profile, which has since been taken down.

In a photo (left), obtained exclusively by Crimesider, a series of what appear to be self-inflicted red cut marks are visible from the top of Alyssa Bustamante's left wrist to almost halfway down her arm.

Another exclusive Crimesider photo (top) shows what appears to be Alyssa Bustamante's hand holding a knife that has something red on its blade. In the photo, the hand is mock-stabbing a friend in the stomach. The hand is tagged as Bustamante on Facebook and the nail polish and shirt sleeve match Alyssa Bustamante's appearance in other pictures in the group.

Alyssa Bustamante's friend Jennifer Meyer told Crimesider that Bustamante tried to kill herself several times since she was 11, and that one attempt involved cutting.

That seems to jibe with Alyssa Bustamante's court appointed juvenile justice officer, who, on Nov. 18, said Bustamante attempted suicide two years ago and had received both inpatient and outpatient mental health treatment for depression and cutting herself.

On Friday, Nov. 20, a judge ordered Bustamante to Fulton State Hospital for up to four full days of psychological evaluation.

If Bustamante is convicted of first-degree murder, she would face a sentence of life in prison without parole. A judge has entered a plea of "not guilty" on her behalf.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/crimesider/entry5761341.shtml
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QueenieB
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« Reply #1070 on: November 25, 2009, 12:51:50 PM »

Something else I was thinking (and this is purely commentary), is that although she had reportedly been receiving some sort of counseling services, my experience in the public school system with a great many children receiving services, is that a lot of these "therapists" are a bunch of kooks with degrees.  A lot of them spew a bunch of "feel good" mumbo jumbo about being in touch with your feelings and not squelching a child's spirit.  OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN ALL PSYCH PROFESSIONALS....but it used to drive me batty. 

I was wondering why a child, whose father is serving time for stabbing, who has attempted suicide at least twice and who is a known Cutter, would be allowed to wear a hatchet necklace charm...I can just hear some pyschobabble about letting her find a safe way to express her inner turmoil, yada yada yada.

The fact that she was on Prozac for a diagnosed "Depression" issue...we don't know how long she had been on those meds but they were clearly not the answer to her problem.  She is "Angry" not "Depressed".  And frankly, IMO, the grandparents should have sent her butt to a strict military type girls camp to help her.  I am sure there are many that are tried and true.  I LOVE my kids with all my heart and while it would absolute break my heart, if one of them was displaying such self destructive and disrespectful behaviors openly and without remorse, my responsibility to my other, younger children is to remove all harmful influences.  Done OUT OF LOVE for ALL the children and with the clear explanation that it would NOT be tolerated.  PERIOD.

We don't really know all that was being done in an attempt to help Alyssa.  But just to say "she was seeing a therapist" even if it was weekly, but was still permitted to behave in the ways in which we have all seen in MANY photos, is the equivalent (IMO) of making a person with food issues eat carrots once a week and expecting them to make wise dietary choices the rest of the week.
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Louisiana5487
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« Reply #1071 on: November 25, 2009, 01:05:52 PM »

First off and O/T....

I want to wish everyone a very happy and safe Thanksgiving! I am thankful to know that good people with huge hearts can be found on this earth (like you). Thank you for all the work you spend on this site. You all are incredible!

Back to the case...

I honestly feel like she isn't insane. I think she KNEW what she was doing. One of my friends got a DUI when we were in HS and she was shocked that her parents were mad because her dad had gotten one a month earlier...KINDA makes a point. It is hypocritical for a dad to tell you not to do something that he is guilty of (he didn't learn from his mistake.. he kept drinking)! (Obviously, no parents would condone a DUI or any type of trouble for that matter) BUT I feel like Alyssa probably didn't think she would be in that much trouble. Most underaged people don't think about life in prison, etc they think about being grounded and missing fun school parties. I feel like she probably didn't think this out too well!!

Minors these days are NOT thinking about the long run which is a problem. I mean think how about how much information we have gotten on the internet about all of these people? Imagine when they want to get a JOB and grow up. If you found all these weird pictures, quotes, etc that we have found on Alyssa and her friend's pages.. would you want to hire them? These kids need a reality check and FAST!! Where are their parents?!?! Grrrr!
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« Reply #1072 on: November 25, 2009, 01:06:11 PM »

I think this will be her defense and it may well be deserved/
Doing research on Prozac and found this:Akathisia was associated with acts of extreme violence in an article in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry, which described three patients who attacked other people or committed murder.17 Other researchers have noted that patients who take Prozac and develop akathisia may, in turn, become preoccupied with thoughts of suicide.18, 19 A 1991 article in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, for example, reports on three patients who attempted suicide during fluoxetine treatment and were then reexposed to the drug. The second time around, all three developed severe akathisia and said the condition made them feel suicidal; they also attributed their previous suicide attempts to akathisia.20


When I first read that Alyssa was on Prozac I thought this would be her defense as well.  Prozac can have detrimental side effects in teens, but this can not be her "get out of jail free card".  (Not directed to you Karen...but the defense.) 

IMO I feel Alyssa played a dangerous game of who can be meaner and scarier which lead her thoughts from harming herself, to harming others, which eventually lead to Elizabeth's death.  If this progression can be proven (which I believe it can with everything she had posted on-line alone) the defense can not claim Alyssa's murderous act stemmed from taking Prozac alone. 





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Louisiana5487
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« Reply #1073 on: November 25, 2009, 01:12:02 PM »

I think this will be her defense and it may well be deserved/
Doing research on Prozac and found this:Akathisia was associated with acts of extreme violence in an article in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry, which described three patients who attacked other people or committed murder.17 Other researchers have noted that patients who take Prozac and develop akathisia may, in turn, become preoccupied with thoughts of suicide.18, 19 A 1991 article in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, for example, reports on three patients who attempted suicide during fluoxetine treatment and were then reexposed to the drug. The second time around, all three developed severe akathisia and said the condition made them feel suicidal; they also attributed their previous suicide attempts to akathisia.20


When I first read that Alyssa was on Prozac I thought this would be her defense as well.  Prozac can have detrimental side effects in teens, but this can not be her "get out of jail free card".  (Not directed to you Karen...but the defense.) 

IMO I feel Alyssa played a dangerous game of who can be meaner and scarier which lead her thoughts from harming herself, to harming others, which eventually lead to Elizabeth's death.  If this progression can be proven (which I believe it can with everything she had posted on-line alone) the defense can not claim Alyssa's murderous act stemmed from taking Prozac alone. 







O/T
Burkieandemme: I have a picture in front of those same honey pots Smile hehe Gotta love DL.

I have a question....I have never taken any type of depression medication or anxiety pills, etc. I feel like they are overly prescribed these days instead of finding root problems. I DO think a lot of people NEED them-I am in NO way against medication! But, how can a teenager or child learn how to react in situations when medication does it for them? I have had hard times and by all means, IT WASNT FUN, but those times made me grow soo much as a person....I feel like medication could be harmful for maturing mentally. Am I wrong?
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bananas
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« Reply #1074 on: November 25, 2009, 01:22:53 PM »

I think this will be her defense and it may well be deserved/
Doing research on Prozac and found this:Akathisia was associated with acts of extreme violence in an article in the American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry, which described three patients who attacked other people or committed murder.17 Other researchers have noted that patients who take Prozac and develop akathisia may, in turn, become preoccupied with thoughts of suicide.18, 19 A 1991 article in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, for example, reports on three patients who attempted suicide during fluoxetine treatment and were then reexposed to the drug. The second time around, all three developed severe akathisia and said the condition made them feel suicidal; they also attributed their previous suicide attempts to akathisia.20


When I first read that Alyssa was on Prozac I thought this would be her defense as well.  Prozac can have detrimental side effects in teens, but this can not be her "get out of jail free card".  (Not directed to you Karen...but the defense.) 

IMO I feel Alyssa played a dangerous game of who can be meaner and scarier which lead her thoughts from harming herself, to harming others, which eventually lead to Elizabeth's death.  If this progression can be proven (which I believe it can with everything she had posted on-line alone) the defense can not claim Alyssa's murderous act stemmed from taking Prozac alone. 







O/T
Burkieandemme: I have a picture in front of those same honey pots Smile hehe Gotta love DL.

I have a question....I have never taken any type of depression medication or anxiety pills, etc. I feel like they are overly prescribed these days instead of finding root problems. I DO think a lot of people NEED them-I am in NO way against medication! But, how can a teenager or child learn how to react in situations when medication does it for them? I have had hard times and by all means, IT WASNT FUN, but those times made me grow soo much as a person....I feel like medication could be harmful for maturing mentally. Am I wrong?

I agree with this..... how can you ever deal with a problem and solve it, if you are just taking happy pills to pretend everything is OK?  Way too many drugs are being prescribed by pill pushing doctors.  JMO
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Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me."
burkieandemme
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« Reply #1075 on: November 25, 2009, 01:40:08 PM »

O/T
Burkieandemme: I have a picture in front of those same honey pots Smile hehe Gotta love DL.

I have a question....I have never taken any type of depression medication or anxiety pills, etc. I feel like they are overly prescribed these days instead of finding root problems. I DO think a lot of people NEED them-I am in NO way against medication! But, how can a teenager or child learn how to react in situations when medication does it for them? I have had hard times and by all means, IT WASNT FUN, but those times made me grow soo much as a person....I feel like medication could be harmful for maturing mentally. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

Yes!! Disneyland is the best!!! 

I am in the same boat as you, although I do not personally have anything against prescribing antidepressants to adults.  I do feel if we teach our children take a pill and everything will be better, then we are not exposing to life. 

Granted there are extreme situations when an antidepressant needs to be prescribed.  When this occasion does arrive, these children need to be observed more than one a week/month etc. and any change in behavior should be examined immediately to see if it is related to the medication.

However, with Alyssa, I think QueenieB said it all.  She was just angry and should have been sent to military school/boot camp.  It would have given her a sense of self that medication could never have.
 
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burkieandemme
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« Reply #1076 on: November 25, 2009, 01:43:37 PM »

Sorry Louisanna5487, I messed up that quote. 

(I will get this eventually....)
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WWW
« Reply #1077 on: November 25, 2009, 07:20:37 PM »

Don't miss Dana Pretzer at 9pm ET tonight!

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bigmoney
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« Reply #1078 on: November 25, 2009, 07:26:45 PM »

what is the December 7th hearing for? A stauts hearing? Is that just a hearing to determine if the defendant has legal representation? Any info is appreciated. Oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.
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« Reply #1079 on: November 25, 2009, 07:46:36 PM »

Something else I was thinking (and this is purely commentary), is that although she had reportedly been receiving some sort of counseling services, my experience in the public school system with a great many children receiving services, is that a lot of these "therapists" are a bunch of kooks with degrees.  A lot of them spew a bunch of "feel good" mumbo jumbo about being in touch with your feelings and not squelching a child's spirit.  OF COURSE I DON'T MEAN ALL PSYCH PROFESSIONALS....but it used to drive me batty. 

I was wondering why a child, whose father is serving time for stabbing, who has attempted suicide at least twice and who is a known Cutter, would be allowed to wear a hatchet necklace charm...I can just hear some pyschobabble about letting her find a safe way to express her inner turmoil, yada yada yada.

The fact that she was on Prozac for a diagnosed "Depression" issue...we don't know how long she had been on those meds but they were clearly not the answer to her problem.  She is "Angry" not "Depressed".  And frankly, IMO, the grandparents should have sent her butt to a strict military type girls camp to help her.  I am sure there are many that are tried and true.  I LOVE my kids with all my heart and while it would absolute break my heart, if one of them was displaying such self destructive and disrespectful behaviors openly and without remorse, my responsibility to my other, younger children is to remove all harmful influences.  Done OUT OF LOVE for ALL the children and with the clear explanation that it would NOT be tolerated.  PERIOD.

We don't really know all that was being done in an attempt to help Alyssa.  But just to say "she was seeing a therapist" even if it was weekly, but was still permitted to behave in the ways in which we have all seen in MANY photos, is the equivalent (IMO) of making a person with food issues eat carrots once a week and expecting them to make wise dietary choices the rest of the week.
Most counselors at schools are just out of college and still in training. They are working for free or little pay as they rack up enough hours to open up a private practice. Many are very good, but they lack experience to deal with a person who is like Alyssa.
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