Natalee Case Discussion #827 12/9/09 - 1/28/10

[Anna]

Charlie didn't run off with that monkey that used to post her, and stopped posting her a few years ago...did he?

I can't remember her name, but he posted about her in the lounge at RU.

I have no idea.  I cannot imagine anyone running off with CR. 

Running FROM him maybe?

[klaasend]

Charlie didn't run off with that monkey that used to post her, and stopped posting her a few years ago...did he?

I can't remember her name, but he posted about her in the lounge at RU.

I remember "Angie"  Charlie & Angie...

Did Angie have a baby?

sorry, my bad

"her" should be "here"

LOLOL. good one.  NO, the Charlierat and Angie thing was a JOKE.   

[Anna]

Gretawire:

December 11, 2009

Natalee HollowayThe Aruba newspapers are reporting that two Dutch TV shows are doing shows this weekend. One has also sold it's video to an American TV show. I think it may be video of van der Sloot taking a polygraph. I know that he got paid to take one a few months ago.

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/natalee-holloway-2/

Do we think this is in anyway related to the "Jaap" polygraphs or are these actual "Law enforcement" interrogations?

I think Greta has not done sufficient research.

There was talk of two shows.  One being the Boulevard show with Peter as a guest and the other being the
show on Sunday night that shows the interrogations in NL.

I have not seen anything anywhere that the Jaap polygraph is about to air.
Wonder which one has been picked up by American TV?

I guess what I'm asking is "are the Devries 'new' polygraph videos the same ones "Jaap" commissioned in a deal with Joran a few monts back?"

If interrogations or a polygraph are not done by our FBI I will never believe one word from any interrogation/polygraph that is done by someone from the Netherlands/Aruba.

JMO

Don't think Dutch LE is allowed to do polygraphs since they officially don't "believe in" them.

I think Greta didn't do her homework or ever who is saying that.  Could be Jaap's poly but I think it will just be police video of them questioning Joran.

[Magnolia]

Is this him Anna?  I remember Charlie was particularly fond of you.

Charles C. RatcliffCharles C. Ratcliff is a Lawyer in Homewood, Alabama
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AddressP.O. Box 590106
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[San]

Gretawire:

December 11, 2009

Natalee HollowayThe Aruba newspapers are reporting that two Dutch TV shows are doing shows this weekend. One has also sold it's video to an American TV show. I think it may be video of van der Sloot taking a polygraph. I know that he got paid to take one a few months ago.

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/natalee-holloway-2/

Do we think this is in anyway related to the "Jaap" polygraphs or are these actual "Law enforcement" interrogations?

I think Greta has not done sufficient research.

There was talk of two shows.  One being the Boulevard show with Peter as a guest and the other being the
show on Sunday night that shows the interrogations in NL.

I have not seen anything anywhere that the Jaap polygraph is about to air.
Wonder which one has been picked up by American TV?

I guess what I'm asking is "are the Devries 'new' polygraph videos the same ones "Jaap" commissioned in a deal with Joran a few monts back?"

If interrogations or a polygraph are not done by our FBI I will never believe one word from any interrogation/polygraph that is done by someone from the Netherlands/Aruba.

JMO

Don't think Dutch LE is allowed to do polygraphs since they officially don't "believe in" them.

I think Greta didn't do her homework or ever who is saying that.  Could be Jaap's poly but I think it will just be police video of them questioning Joran.

Hi Anna good to see you.  Happy Holidays to you and your family.

I was referring to the Jaap poly he did with Joran.  We all know that was a big farce.

[Anna]

Is this him Anna?  I remember Charlie was particularly fond of you.

Charles C. RatcliffCharles C. Ratcliff is a Lawyer in Homewood, Alabama
Learn More

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Add To My Lawyers
AddressP.O. Box 590106
Homewood, Alabama, (Jefferson Co.)

Yes, CharlieRat just adored me!  

I think one of his opening posts here was to call me names.


Surely that is him.  Don't tell me that there are more than one in B'ham area.  That would be an infestation wouldn't it?

[Anna]

San, I don't know and so far my emails to NL have been ignored.  Huumm. . .will send again this evening. 

I LIKE to think Peter would not associate with Jaap but he might to get the poly.  Just know the official LE is not supposed to do one.  At least that is my understanding.

And in that photo provided, it appears that Joran is trying to copy your knitted cap sytle!  He's just not original about anything is he?  He must have seen yours and become jealous but his was not made by our Magnolia!  Maybe Bastibro made one for him from goat's wool socks.

[Magnolia]

Is this him Anna?  I remember Charlie was particularly fond of you.

Charles C. RatcliffCharles C. Ratcliff is a Lawyer in Homewood, Alabama
Learn More

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Add To My Lawyers
AddressP.O. Box 590106
Homewood, Alabama, (Jefferson Co.)

Yes, CharlieRat just adored me!  

I think one of his opening posts here was to call me names.


Surely that is him.  Don't tell me that there are more than one in B'ham area.  That would be an infestation wouldn't it?

He has moved up the hill a little from Morris Avenue.

[hotping]

CHARLES C RATCLIFF LLC  Bessemer, AL   RATCLIFF, CHARLES C
(AGENT)
MARIAN LLC
ROSS PROPERTIES INC

WARRIOR RIVER BOATING ASSOCIATION
ALABAMA BOATING FANS, INC
GREEN & BIVONA, PC

Name
RATCLIFF, CHARLES C
Address
1703 11TH AVE SOUTH City-State-
ZIP Code
BIRMINGHAM, AL 35205
Appoint Date
Feb 11 2001
Commissioned Date
Feb 11 2001 Expiration Date
Feb 11 2005 Notary Type
STATE WIDE County
JEFFERSON
Probate Judge
REYNOLDS, GEORGE R Bonding Co.
EMPLOYERS MUTUAL CASUALTY CO

[Magnolia]

Now I may be wrong.......but I don't think the the Jaap lie detector test is in any way connected to
the DeVries show.

Jaap was looking for a production company to air his footage of the test and last I heard he had been
unsuccessful.  Everybody knew it was bogus.  (I would still like to see it)

Peter's show on Sunday is about the Dutch police questioning of Joran after the Range Rover recordings.

[Magnolia]

CHARLES C RATCLIFF LLC  Bessemer, AL   RATCLIFF, CHARLES C
(AGENT)
MARIAN LLC
ROSS PROPERTIES INC

WARRIOR RIVER BOATING ASSOCIATION
ALABAMA BOATING FANS, INC
GREEN & BIVONA, PC

Name
RATCLIFF, CHARLES C
Address
1703 11TH AVE SOUTH City-State-
ZIP Code
BIRMINGHAM, AL 35205
Appoint Date
Feb 11 2001
Commissioned Date
Feb 11 2001 Expiration Date
Feb 11 2005 Notary Type
STATE WIDE County
JEFFERSON
Probate Judge
REYNOLDS, GEORGE R Bonding Co.
EMPLOYERS MUTUAL CASUALTY CO

Thanks Hotping!

The 11th AVE South would be Homewood.

[Anna]

Didn't Angie post on an unmentionable forum a while back about having a GRANDchild?  May be what whisky was remembering.

A baby at Christmas time would be so much fun I think.  Not sure I will ever know, however.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Magnolia is like our own personal Birmingham GPS.   

[San]

Didn't Angie post on an unmentionable forum a while back about having a GRANDchild?  May be what whisky was remembering.

A baby at Christmas time would be so much fun I think.  Not sure I will ever know, however.

Never say never Anna.

Yes Angie is a proud Grandma.

[Anna]

Valero Energy, the largest American refiner, is taking another step towards building up its renewable fuel supplies. The San Antonio-based company on Friday agreed to a five-year deal with an Australian biofuel refiner to obtain biodiesel made from jatropha.

The deal also allows Valero to buy a 25 percent stake in the Australian company, Mission NewEnergy.

Mission will supply Valero with up to 60 million gallons of biodiesel per year, starting next year. Under the terms of the agreement, Valero can double that amount and extend the contract by an additional five years. The value of the contract could be as high as $3.5 billion, Mission said in a statement.

Jatropha is a family of oil seed plants that can grow on marginal soil without displacing land used for food supply. While there has been a lot of interest in the plant recently, efforts to develop biofuels from jatropha have been mixed.

For Valero, the deal is another step toward diversifying its fuel supplies. Earlier this year, the company acquired distressed assets from VeraSun, an ethanol refiner in the United States, including seven ethanol refineries.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/valero-bets-on-biodiesel-from-jatropha/



So it appears Valero has left Aruba far behind and more or less moved on.  Guess maybe now they wish they had kept the tax incentives.  And maybe not stolen 5 million from them?

[Blonde]

from the gretawire comments -

Maureen from ArubaReportYou all should ask Beth Twitty what happen to Natalee, cause when she came to Aruba, the first time, she talked with Natalee still alive then. SHe even posted a poster saying.. "we can talk" I ask was there a problem to talk a about? Why was she hidding from her mom in a house in Ponderosa? Why did the mother change the poster after she realise THat Natalee stop comunicating, cause now she knows she death. And beside Beth never cried in Aruba and was drinking and laughing at the hotel bars. RIP.

December 11, 2009 at 10:38 am

Someone should show this ignorant moron the picture of the 2 men holding Beth up after the FBI had given Beth the news that Natalee was most likely deceased.  These people really tick me off.

 

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_66295.php

Google translation:

ARUBA

Patrick van der Eem sentenced

December 11, 2009, 12:39 (GMT -04:00)

ORANGE CITY - Patrick van der Eem was yesterday sentenced in absentia because of threats and possession of marijuana. He was imposed a fine of 2000 florin. For possession of cocaine, Van der Eem acquitted. The labrapport the outcome of the test was coke is not included in the file. The Public Prosecutor (OM) went only to 0.2 grams.

The prosecution had demanded a fine of 2,400 florin. Van der Eem was held on August 25 for cocaine and marijuana possession and threat of crime against life and of aggravated assault. At his arrest he had a quantity of hashish users and 2.4 grams of marijuana with him. The crime would have occurred under the OM between 14 and August 24. Van der Eem was in August of 2000 florin to the offer to pay for these violations. He paid it not, that Justice decided to prosecute him still.

Between 14 and August 17, Van der Eem an employee of the Westin hotel several times seriously threatened. The problems arose when he refused to pay $ 200 extra hotel charges guests who smoke in their hotel room. Van der Eem was then expelled the hotel, but came back with some regularity in order to threaten the employee. Van der Eem said the victim had told him he would kill or shoot. The OM had he expressed the following threat: "If I see you on the street, you notice something happening to you." Similarly, Van der Eem said: "Come to my car and then see what happens, I go shoot. "

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_66292.php

Google translation:

ARUBA

Links with women journalists violence

December 11, 2009, 12:37 (GMT -04:00)



Fifth UN Conference Information for Action

ORANGE CITY / ST. GEORGE'S - The idyllic bay surrounded by green hills of St. George's, Grenada, where 26 journalists from fifteen countries in the Caribbean region from the hotel look, is a sharp contrast with the topic being discussed these days on the fifth Conference Information for Action. This is organized by UNIC, the information center of the United Nations. Central, this time the violence against women that the UN has assumed pandemic are: 1 in 3 women worldwide has to do and the Caribbean is relatively leader.

by our reporter
Sharina Henriquez

Thus, the Caribbean region in percentage terms the highest number of rapes in the world. With the region in the Bahamas at number 1, followed by Jamaica and St. Vincent. Also presented are numbers of Jamaica, where 47 percent of the girls who first had sex, indicate that this 'forced' happened. Reliable figures are not, let alone full, say the organizers and they are therefore at the "tip of the iceberg". Women who are victims of violence, are also afraid and ashamed to declare it. The stigma is high on many islands, especially in sexual assault or rape. Moreover, police are not always helpful. "In a declaration of a robbery, you will not doubt your story or ask what you so late to the street, or what you wore. As so often happens in reporting of rape, "said Hilary Nicholson, regional coordinator of UNIC. Reliable figures are not as law enforcement violence against women not register separately or only recently started to do. Aruba is different it does not, only with the introduction of the new registration system, the police, for example domestic violence as a separate category to register. Before too long the police would also be able to produce figures of all reported violent crimes against women. Because the new system was first relationships being made between the records.

About linkages or left yesterday was a large part of the first day of the conference on UNIC. How can journalists their stories in separate incidents over links with violence against women? The organizers, consisting of UN staff and NGO representatives, want to lock in journalism from the conference that much more attention to the subject. As the kick was said: "You are the catalyst to change." That already makes any big discussion, because journalists are not generally hold to be told of what she should write, how serious the problem is . "We are journalists, not activists," said one journalist in Surinam. Yet during the workshops interesting dilemmas raised and also shows that it is a nice taboo topic alive. Not only among the population, including journalists in the Caribbean islands. "Why do we not ministers, who are known to abuse their spouses: Minister, save your wife? Why do not we, "asked a journalist from Barbados himself. Journalists also pay attention to women or violence, but as appeared at the conference, NGOs often only about one event. And that is usually in November as the International Day against violence against women occurs.

In the formation of the new Cabinet on Aruba were female violence is not the issue in interviews. They went back as usual especially on the economy. In previous elections it was also an issue for any party. While organizations such as Fundacion Hende Muhe den Dificultad for years called the violence a major, growing problem with all the consequences not only for women themselves but also for the development of children and even for the economic development of the country. Surveys in the U.S. example shows that the damage caused by women who are abused by their partners, nearly 2 billion U.S. dollars is.

The UNIC Conference in Grenada takes in any case until tomorrow morning. That it also be held in Grenada, not because the country itself is another example in the fight against female violence. In a brief conversation with Prime Minister Tillman Thomas yesterday, after he opened the conference, he said that in Grenada violence against women is a serious problem. "It is as bad as climate change and its impact on the earth where all attention is now." Asked whether his government than specific policy to do this challenge, gave the Prime Minister is no clear answer. Elaine Henry MacQueen of Grenada National Organization for Women, agrees that increased government should do. "The task now is something of NGOs."

[klaasend]

Posted by Fierljepper at RU:

Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:36 pm         

Joran! Those shoes are made for walking...
I was triggered by that DeVries snippet from the police tape, that shows Joran being interrogated about his shoes. These detectives must have had good reasons to keep asking him about them.

Let's go back to the simplest scenario possible:

Premises:
1. More people involved = more complex
2. Natalee didn't make it back to the hotel alive (otherwise violates 1.)
3. K2 are innocent and have spoken the truth >6/12/05 (otherwise violates 1.)
4. The 2:26 call to Deepak was made in the vicinity of MacDonalds.
4. Natalee died in the presence of Joran ( no suicide/accidental drowning)
5. Body disposal in the sea is simpler than any form of land disposal.
6. Wind, tide and current that night could have taken the body into the ocean.

Based on these premises the simplest scenario seems to be:
* K2 dropped J. off at the beach and only joined the HI-lie to cover for a friend.
* N. fatally collapsed on the beach with Joran.
* J. pushed N.'s body a certain distance into the sea (make it look like drowning).
* J. had a good fall back lie in case the body would be found (I left her perfectly ok!?!).
* J. rushed home barefoot, called Deepak at 2:26 near MDonalds and went on his PC.
* Telling Deepak he'd left her "passed out" on the beach, is precisely the right thing to say (shifts responsibility for getting into the sea to N.)
* N's body was picked up by the current and disappeared in the wide ocean. That's why J. tells Patrick that he really 'got lucky'.
* No body, no case. Add a few simple smoke curtains and you're save.

But why tell Deepak about walking home barefoot?
J. must have gotten into trouble with his shoes one way or the other. There must have been some compelling reasons to compensate for a 4kms of barefoot discomfort and not simply taking a taxi. Losing one or both shoes during the sea disposal is a very good reason for his behaviors. His cloths were soaked and he couldn't be spotted by a witness and he was barefoot. What other options did he have in such a situation, than to sneak home all those 4kms?

So, why bring up the shoe story voluntarily to Deepak and ALE?
That is pretty simple in this scenario. His biggest fear was that the shoe(s) he had lost in the ocean would wash ashore (maybe even around the same time as the body and connections could be made). That's pretty difficult to explain (no car pick ups in his head then). Since he actually was walking home barefoot when he rang Deepak (and someone would ask questions about his expensive shoes sooner or later), he had to pre-emptively state that he left his shoes on the beach (e.g. the flood could have picked them up, somebody had thrown them in the ocean, loads of effective bullshit stories to explain why they found your shoes on the beach). At that moment he didn't know that neither his shoe(s), nor Natalees body would ever come ashore. Bu once the shoe-''genie" was voluntarily released from the bottle, it could never be reversed.

Was it a smart idea to dream up the HI-lie in this scenario?
At that moment in time, J. couldn't have known how lucky he would get with the current at that time. What if her body would be found on the beach the next day (most likely scenario in J.'s head)? Yes, then it still is a very smart idea to invent the HI-lie since it places yourself away from the beach and the HI-drop off also transfers your personal accountability nicely towards somebody else (MB-ers, hotel staff, security guards, etc.). This is precisely what happened (guards got arrested) and Deepak was happy (naive) enough to back up his friend, since contrary to J. he didn't have a clue that she had already died at that time (so it was an innocent lie from Deepak).

Was it smart to continue to incriminate the K2 until he got stuck on the 'Satish picked my up story'?
Yes, in hind sight it probably was. The simple fact that K2 had joined the HI lie made them a very easy target for J. to raise further accusations against them. J. tried everything to firstly keep himself away from the beach ("they drove off with her in their car") and when that was all falsified, his only option to not be totally alone in the case and on the beach was to incriminate the K2 (and this also kept him very nicely away from the risky "I walked home barefoot scenario".

Why did he tell Patrick that he kept his shoes and then threw them away in a sewer?
He told Patrick during the 'confession' that the shoes were really a non-event and that he actually walked home on them and never lost them. Joran could easily say this, since 4 years after the event he was pretty sure the shoes had indeed turned into a non-event and would never be found again. He must have realised himself that keeping them was a risky tweak in the bullshit story to Patrick and to bend it closer towards the truth, he decided to tell him that he'd thrown them away.

Are there bits of evidence to support this scenario?
1) A remarkable element of J.'s formal statement is that he carried Natalee for a while and that she asked him to put her down (it's a very save bet to say this if you have indeed carried a body to the sea and you're not yet 100% sure someone hasn't seen you doing that). He also told ALE that he went to the sea to wash his hands (make's sense if you need to explain your moves in case someone has seen you coming out of the sea after the disposal).
2) Joran told his headmaster already the next day (May 31st), that 'maybe she went for a swim and drowned'. This is also a scenario he puts forward in the 'what could have happened' chapter in DZNH. Why would that scenario be so prevalent in Joran's head the next day after she disappeared...? Why so fatalistic? Did American girls drown all the time on Aruba...

...or did Joran know Natalee's real fate and was he a little too eager to cover his ass as liers often do...?

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_66296.php

Google translation:

The Aruban sought bankruptcy

December 11, 2009, 12:40 (GMT -04:00)

Email this article
Print this article

ORANGE CITY - Trade FTA on behalf of the hotel staff of the hotel claimed bankruptcy. The union leader told Rudy Geerman morning this newspaper.

The employees who for several weeks at their biweekly salary guards, have been paid yesterday, 20 percent of this. "What happened to the remaining 80 percent going to happen is not yet known," said Geerman. Also, the hotel based on the union leaders have promised, next week to pay a small bonus.

The hotel is not only the workers owed money. The company also would be Geerman Elmar electricity and water company WEB together more than two million florin guilty. WEB yesterday the water of the hotel closed for a short time. Only through the government, got the hotel back water. Also according Geerman Elmar threatened with closure, but has through the government not put. Neither nor Elmar WEB like this comment. "We do not provide information of customers," said spokesman Kelvin WEB-Augustin.

This morning, lawyers were by The Aruban Resort along with representatives of the Minister of Tourism, Labor and Transport Otmar Oduber of the table to one another and discuss the situation with The Aruban Resort. Minister Oduber is especially concerned about the fate of employees and the impact any closure would have on the image of Aruba.

Last week Monday stopped a large portion of the staff of the hotel because of the lack of salary payments. It is not the first time that the working staff of The Aruban resign. Beginning this year, the Sales & Marketing concluded that 80 people lost their jobs. A few weeks later that the foreign hotel owners again reversed. It was also paying the salary already a stumbling block. Employees of the hotel laid a few months ago even a short time working and unhappy about the late payment of their salaries. However, the strike last Monday so far the largest. Reportedly made more than 80 percent of the staff in this business. Rudy Geerman of Clear union did this early last week, with more measures to come if the problem is not corrected. The hotel finds a long-standing financial problems because of U.S. banks, which for several million florin has borrowed money, bankrupt. The economic downturn has also made a drastic decline.