MONKEY MUSINGS DAILY OPEN DISCUSSION #54 1/21/10 - 6/18/10

[Bearlyhere]

SteveDinMD

Fully respect your opinion and you present the other side of the coin.

I still hold my opinion on well planned adventuring by young people.
What does it add for US today ? Nothing. Like running the 4 minute mile.. what does that prove ? How does it help humanity ? It does not.. But once one person did it many more have. It is like breaking the barrier.

We are busy educating our children for jobs that do not even exist yet. Math so high I can't help my 14 year old in her homework.. We have no idea of what the future brings. It is hard for me to say Abby brings or adds nothing.
Maybe the next generation will do the same kind of Adventure in homebuilt crafts in space.. What will they bring to our table by doing so ?
Hard to say.. But Your opinion is definite and respected.


20 years ago you would not even have considered how we are communicating worldwide live on the moment today.

Edward: 

     It's easy to get caught up in the thrill of the adventure.  It's exciting.  It's romantic, and it hearkens back to childhood daydreams of long ago.  Abby might be a competent sailor, but her expedition was hardly well planned and executed.  If it were, she wouldn't have been sailing the "Roaring Forties" of the Southern Ocean at this time of year, she wouldn't have met with disaster, and she wouldn't have needed to be rescued.  In fact, the only reason she could even contemplate undertaking such an adventure was on account of vast networks of assistance she could implicitly rely on to ease her way.  Those networks were established and publicly financed for the exclusive purpose of mitigating the risks faced by those with legitimate business plying the world's oceans -- NOT for the purpose of saving fools from themselves.  Had this been a "voyage of discovery" in the true sense of the term, Abby would have sailed off into oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again.  Fortunately, neither she nor anyone else died on account of her folly. 
        This case reminds me of the situation ~15 years ago when there was a "competition" among those attempting to become the youngest to fly across North America.  At that time, there were a succession of ever younger record holders until, at one point, a 7 year old boy crashed his plane on takeoff killing himself, his father, and his flight instructor during one such attempt.  With dozens of would-be record holders making ready their own attempts, this sad and dangerous state of affairs ended only when Congress modified the laws to set a minimum age for those operating an aircraft. 
        Perhaps the time has come to modify U.S. maritime laws, as well.  Currently, there are NO licensing requirements for those operating certain vessels, among them most pleasurecraft.  Perhaps it should now be mandated that any vessel operating in U.S. territorial waters beyond three miles from shore be under the command of a maritime license holder who must remain on board at all times.  It should perhaps be further mandated that no one be granted such license until having at least attained the age of 18 years, effectively preventing future instances of child endangerment, or at least those originating from U.S. shores. 
    By the way, 20 years ago, I could certainly imagine communicating as we do now, because I was among those developing some of the technologies upon which the Telecomm Revolution was based.  In all the years I've worked in Government and industrial laboratories, not once did I ever encounter a child as a member of any development team I ever ran across.  The future is right now being invented by skilled, experienced, and well-directed ADULTS, not by capricious children.  It is the duty of youth to LEARN and of experience to TEACH.  Such has it ever been, and we would do well as a people to keep it so. 

I suppose it's only in the Bible where is says..."and a child should lead them."

[Bearlyhere]

HH
Pale gums and tounge and or lisslessness (?) are the 2 big things the vets ask on the phone and if either or both they tell you to come in immediately.

How's he now?
Saying prayers for his quick recovery.

He finally got up and moved around today....Thank God ...he drank water by himself and ate just a little bit.........Thanks to all who asked about him.......I hope he is coming around, will update more as the days go by.......poor little guy...

Thanks HH, I have been wondering about the little fella.

[Monken]

Hey everyone!!! I've been here in the background constantly reading Natalee's thread since the news broke. I was getting ready to post a cake pic that day when i saw Klaas's post telling someone to go to Natalee's thread! Of course i had to go see what was up!! I tried posting the first few days but always got bumped out, it's much better now but I need to know if I can post cake pics or if it would be better not to.
KLAAS,BEARLY,MUFFY or anyone who knows, please let me know if it's good idea to post the pictures or if I should wait awhile. My hubby has been out cutting grass today but the heat is just about unbearable( I think i must live near Anna ! Mid 90's & "feels like" temps around 105. I keep wanting to weed my flower beds but when I walk outside it's easy to change your mind!! Maybe I'll get to them before dark. Anyways, I'm here on the top vine, as always, Love you all!!!   

[cookie]

Monken....I for one would love to see your cakes...this is after all a thread for open discussion and pictures...I could use a few pictures that are fun to look at ! lighten the mood and the tone a bit...so please...do post your photos...

[cookie]

Monken....I for one would love to see your cakes...this is after all a thread for open discussion and pictures...I could use a few pictures that are fun to look at ! lighten the mood and the tone a bit...so please...do post your photos...

oops..maybe I spoke too soon..I do remember something that Klaas said about posting pictures and such unless it is from photobucket? so I guess you better ask the powers that be...
would still love to see them...

[Monken]

Monken....I for one would love to see your cakes...this is after all a thread for open discussion and pictures...I could use a few pictures that are fun to look at ! lighten the mood and the tone a bit...so please...do post your photos...

oops..maybe I spoke too soon..I do remember something that Klaas said about posting pictures and such unless it is from photobucket? so I guess you better ask the powers that be...
would still love to see them...

hey cookie, bless your heart yes,I was hoping to lighten the mood a bit but I don't want to mess up anyone's post with them! They would come from photobucket though.

[Green Eyes]

Hey everyone!!! I've been here in the background constantly reading Natalee's thread since the news broke. I was getting ready to post a cake pic that day when i saw Klaas's post telling someone to go to Natalee's thread! Of course i had to go see what was up!! I tried posting the first few days but always got bumped out, it's much better now but I need to know if I can post cake pics or if it would be better not to.
KLAAS,BEARLY,MUFFY or anyone who knows, please let me know if it's good idea to post the pictures or if I should wait awhile. My hubby has been out cutting grass today but the heat is just about unbearable( I think i must live near Anna ! Mid 90's & "feels like" temps around 105. I keep wanting to weed my flower beds but when I walk outside it's easy to change your mind!! Maybe I'll get to them before dark. Anyways, I'm here on the top vine, as always, Love you all!!!   

Hi Monken,

If I remember correctly you can post pictures but they need to be out of photo bucket or other sites like that. As the bandwidth is used by thier site not SM I think she has turned off the options here at SM from coming from our computers any way. I can't wait to see your new cakes.  Hope you are doing well. I think just about everyone's been to Natalees thread since Joran got caught.

[klaasend]

Hey everyone!!! I've been here in the background constantly reading Natalee's thread since the news broke. I was getting ready to post a cake pic that day when i saw Klaas's post telling someone to go to Natalee's thread! Of course i had to go see what was up!! I tried posting the first few days but always got bumped out, it's much better now but I need to know if I can post cake pics or if it would be better not to.
KLAAS,BEARLY,MUFFY or anyone who knows, please let me know if it's good idea to post the pictures or if I should wait awhile. My hubby has been out cutting grass today but the heat is just about unbearable( I think i must live near Anna ! Mid 90's & "feels like" temps around 105. I keep wanting to weed my flower beds but when I walk outside it's easy to change your mind!! Maybe I'll get to them before dark. Anyways, I'm here on the top vine, as always, Love you all!!!   

I have disabled attaching links uploaded from your PC but you can still post if the photo is in photobucket.  A photobucket link doesn't use up server space whereas uploading from your PC does.

So..continue to post photos as long as they are web based like photobucket or something similar.  Hopefully we can go back to allowing attachments, avatars and smilies soon.

[Monken]

Hey everyone!!! I've been here in the background constantly reading Natalee's thread since the news broke. I was getting ready to post a cake pic that day when i saw Klaas's post telling someone to go to Natalee's thread! Of course i had to go see what was up!! I tried posting the first few days but always got bumped out, it's much better now but I need to know if I can post cake pics or if it would be better not to.
KLAAS,BEARLY,MUFFY or anyone who knows, please let me know if it's good idea to post the pictures or if I should wait awhile. My hubby has been out cutting grass today but the heat is just about unbearable( I think i must live near Anna ! Mid 90's & "feels like" temps around 105. I keep wanting to weed my flower beds but when I walk outside it's easy to change your mind!! Maybe I'll get to them before dark. Anyways, I'm here on the top vine, as always, Love you all!!!   

I have disabled attaching links uploaded from your PC but you can still post if the photo is in photobucket.  A photobucket link doesn't use up server space whereas uploading from your PC does.

So..continue to post photos as long as they are web based like photobucket or something similar.  Hopefully we can go back to allowing attachments, avatars and smilies soon.

Okey doke, Thanks! 

[SteveDinMD]

SteveDinMD

Fully respect your opinion and you present the other side of the coin.

I still hold my opinion on well planned adventuring by young people.
What does it add for US today ? Nothing. Like running the 4 minute mile.. what does that prove ? How does it help humanity ? It does not.. But once one person did it many more have. It is like breaking the barrier.

We are busy educating our children for jobs that do not even exist yet. Math so high I can't help my 14 year old in her homework.. We have no idea of what the future brings. It is hard for me to say Abby brings or adds nothing.
Maybe the next generation will do the same kind of Adventure in homebuilt crafts in space.. What will they bring to our table by doing so ?
Hard to say.. But Your opinion is definite and respected.


20 years ago you would not even have considered how we are communicating worldwide live on the moment today.

Edward: 

     It's easy to get caught up in the thrill of the adventure.  It's exciting.  It's romantic, and it hearkens back to childhood daydreams of long ago.  Abby might be a competent sailor, but her expedition was hardly well planned and executed.  If it were, she wouldn't have been sailing the "Roaring Forties" of the Southern Ocean at this time of year, she wouldn't have met with disaster, and she wouldn't have needed to be rescued.  In fact, the only reason she could even contemplate undertaking such an adventure was on account of vast networks of assistance she could implicitly rely on to ease her way.  Those networks were established and publicly financed for the exclusive purpose of mitigating the risks faced by those with legitimate business plying the world's oceans -- NOT for the purpose of saving fools from themselves.  Had this been a "voyage of discovery" in the true sense of the term, Abby would have sailed off into oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again.  Fortunately, neither she nor anyone else died on account of her folly. 
        This case reminds me of the situation ~15 years ago when there was a "competition" among those attempting to become the youngest to fly across North America.  At that time, there were a succession of ever younger record holders until, at one point, a 7 year old boy crashed his plane on takeoff killing himself, his father, and his flight instructor during one such attempt.  With dozens of would-be record holders making ready their own attempts, this sad and dangerous state of affairs ended only when Congress modified the laws to set a minimum age for those operating an aircraft. 
        Perhaps the time has come to modify U.S. maritime laws, as well.  Currently, there are NO licensing requirements for those operating certain vessels, among them most pleasurecraft.  Perhaps it should now be mandated that any vessel operating in U.S. territorial waters beyond three miles from shore be under the command of a maritime license holder who must remain on board at all times.  It should perhaps be further mandated that no one be granted such license until having at least attained the age of 18 years, effectively preventing future instances of child endangerment, or at least those originating from U.S. shores. 
    By the way, 20 years ago, I could certainly imagine communicating as we do now, because I was among those developing some of the technologies upon which the Telecomm Revolution was based.  In all the years I've worked in Government and industrial laboratories, not once did I ever encounter a child as a member of any development team I ever ran across.  The future is right now being invented by skilled, experienced, and well-directed ADULTS, not by capricious children.  It is the duty of youth to LEARN and of experience to TEACH.  Such has it ever been, and we would do well as a people to keep it so. 

Do you know for sure she has not gone into waters that need licensing to operate pleasure craft?  I know there are places here in the US that do, even if you are close to the shore.  I was just wondering.

U.S. Coast Guard regulations specify a minimum age of 21 for anyone to be issued an officer's rating.  For certain vessels under 100 tons, I believe the minimum age is 18, or 19 in some instances, but I believe these ratings are invalid more than 100nm offshore or for international voyages.  I'm guessing Abby's boat was under 5 tons, in which case I don't believe any licensing is required at all, unless the boat was offered in charter trade.  In any case, according to the U.S. Coast Guard, Abby was an UNQUALIFIED mariner and had no business plying the seas as she did.  She put herself and others at grave and unnecesary risk. 

[SteveDinMD]

SteveDinMD

Fully respect your opinion and you present the other side of the coin.

I still hold my opinion on well planned adventuring by young people.
What does it add for US today ? Nothing. Like running the 4 minute mile.. what does that prove ? How does it help humanity ? It does not.. But once one person did it many more have. It is like breaking the barrier.

We are busy educating our children for jobs that do not even exist yet. Math so high I can't help my 14 year old in her homework.. We have no idea of what the future brings. It is hard for me to say Abby brings or adds nothing.
Maybe the next generation will do the same kind of Adventure in homebuilt crafts in space.. What will they bring to our table by doing so ?
Hard to say.. But Your opinion is definite and respected.


20 years ago you would not even have considered how we are communicating worldwide live on the moment today.

Edward: 

     It's easy to get caught up in the thrill of the adventure.  It's exciting.  It's romantic, and it hearkens back to childhood daydreams of long ago.  Abby might be a competent sailor, but her expedition was hardly well planned and executed.  If it were, she wouldn't have been sailing the "Roaring Forties" of the Southern Ocean at this time of year, she wouldn't have met with disaster, and she wouldn't have needed to be rescued.  In fact, the only reason she could even contemplate undertaking such an adventure was on account of vast networks of assistance she could implicitly rely on to ease her way.  Those networks were established and publicly financed for the exclusive purpose of mitigating the risks faced by those with legitimate business plying the world's oceans -- NOT for the purpose of saving fools from themselves.  Had this been a "voyage of discovery" in the true sense of the term, Abby would have sailed off into oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again.  Fortunately, neither she nor anyone else died on account of her folly. 
        This case reminds me of the situation ~15 years ago when there was a "competition" among those attempting to become the youngest to fly across North America.  At that time, there were a succession of ever younger record holders until, at one point, a 7 year old boy crashed his plane on takeoff killing himself, his father, and his flight instructor during one such attempt.  With dozens of would-be record holders making ready their own attempts, this sad and dangerous state of affairs ended only when Congress modified the laws to set a minimum age for those operating an aircraft. 
        Perhaps the time has come to modify U.S. maritime laws, as well.  Currently, there are NO licensing requirements for those operating certain vessels, among them most pleasurecraft.  Perhaps it should now be mandated that any vessel operating in U.S. territorial waters beyond three miles from shore be under the command of a maritime license holder who must remain on board at all times.  It should perhaps be further mandated that no one be granted such license until having at least attained the age of 18 years, effectively preventing future instances of child endangerment, or at least those originating from U.S. shores. 
    By the way, 20 years ago, I could certainly imagine communicating as we do now, because I was among those developing some of the technologies upon which the Telecomm Revolution was based.  In all the years I've worked in Government and industrial laboratories, not once did I ever encounter a child as a member of any development team I ever ran across.  The future is right now being invented by skilled, experienced, and well-directed ADULTS, not by capricious children.  It is the duty of youth to LEARN and of experience to TEACH.  Such has it ever been, and we would do well as a people to keep it so. 

I suppose it's only in the Bible where is says..."and a child should lead them."

The full quote is:  "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."  -- Isaiah 11:6

The Bible also says, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." -- I Corinthians 13:11 which is a more applicable citation for purposes of the discussion at hand. 

[klaasend]

Don't miss Dana Pretzer tonight at 9pm ET:

[klaasend]

I have no problem with a 16yr old qualified person sailing the sea or climbing mountains, except when they get stuck and the rest of the world has to bail them out.  It's not the age so much as the risk involved.

I am very curious what this father of the girl does for a living.  They have 8 children and I believe #9 to be born any minute (or 7 with #8 on the way).  Boating is expensive as well.  So I say send them the bill for saving her.

[SteveDinMD]

I have no problem with a 16yr old qualified person sailing the sea or climbing mountains, except when they get stuck and the rest of the world has to bail them out.  It's not the age so much as the risk involved.

I am very curious what this father of the girl does for a living.  They have 8 children and I believe #9 to be born any minute (or 7 with #8 on the way).  Boating is expensive as well.  So I say send them the bill for saving her.

Ok, I just looked up Laurence Sunderland.  He owns/operates Sunderland Yacht Management.  a company that provides a variety of services to yacht owners, including modification, repair, restoration, transportation, etc.  It's difficult to say how much money his business generates.  My stepfather is in a similar line of business in Connecticut, plus has other related business interests, as well.  One's income can certainly vary with economic conditions.  My rough guess, though, is that Mr. Sunderland's income is in the vicinity of $250,000, maybe more, maybe less. 

I can see, though, how his daughter got into the circumnavigation adventure.  Mr. Sunderland evidently believed he could engineer Abby's boat and outfitting in order to keep both the risks and the demands on the operator to a minimum.  He succeeded well enough with his 16-year-old son, before her.  A used racer/cruiser like the one they employed can cost roughly $300K to $600K, depending on condition and equipment.  The up-front cash outlay, however, can be much less, assuming the boat was mortgage financed.  They probably invested another $500K in customization and outfitting, but Sunderland could do much of the work himself, at cost, and get trade discounts on most of the rest.  They also evidently lined up a team of sponsors to further defray costs.  Upon successfully completing the journey, they could expect to reap significant financial rewards, turning the expedition into a money making enterprise. 

As for Abby, herself, she seems sweet enough, and is probably a competant sailor.  According to hers and her father's websites, she has logged "... thousands of miles of coastal sailing ..."  Were these miles solo?  Were they at the helm?  In what kinds of craft?  Under what kinds of conditions?  One thing is certain, though -- Abby had never handled a boat of the type she attempted to sail around the World prior to late last year.  It is only by the grace of God that neither she nor anyone else died or suffered serious injury as a result of her ill-advised adventure. 

[higherhopes]

HH
Pale gums and tounge and or lisslessness (?) are the 2 big things the vets ask on the phone and if either or both they tell you to come in immediately.

How's he now?
Saying prayers for his quick recovery.

He finally got up and moved around today....Thank God ...he drank water by himself and ate just a little bit.........Thanks to all who asked about him.......I hope he is coming around, will update more as the days go by.......poor little guy...

Thanks HH, I have been wondering about the little fella.

OK....Axle, my little puppy is all better...today he ate like a horse and we had to stop him because I didnt want him to get sick from overeating so soon after not eating for 4 days straight, he has lost a lot of weight and he is still a little tired, but the difference in how he is now and how he was a few days ago are like night and day!,  Thank God he pulled through, thanks everyone for asking about him and when things slow down on the bords I will try to post some pics of just how sick he was and how much better he is now!!

[MuffyBee]

I'm so glad to hear your puppy-dog is feeling better and eating again, HH.  When our fur babies get sick, it's so scary since they can't tell us what's wrong, where it hurts and if they've eaten something they shouldn't.  It sounds like he just needs to eat, rest and get his strength back.  Keep us posted on his progress, okay?

[Monken]

Hey everyone, cake pics are up!
My granddaughter is in Destin this week, with friends & it is gorgeous there, emerald water & sugar white sand; No oil yet!! But not far west of there it is already showing up & with a tropical system a week away & the spill still going strong, I fear for the future of our gulf. It is an unbelievably beautiful part of our country & I don't want it destroyed!!!!!!
If there are any Saints fans here please visit this site: www.saintsgulfcoastrenewal.com Love you all!


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[no rose colored glasses]

Sailor Abby Sunderland's Dad Signed Her To TV Deal Before Her Doomed Voyage

Published June 14, 2010

 
   

Abby Sunderland, 16, looks out from her sailboat, Wild Eyes, as she leaves for her world record attempting journey at the Del Rey Yacht Club in Marina del Rey, Calif. (AP)

Here's a dose of reality.

The father of teen sailor Abby Sunderland told The NY Post that he's broke and had signed a contract to do a reality show, "Adventures in Sunderland," about his family of daredevil kids weeks after she set off on her doomed and dangerous solo sail around the globe.

Laurence Sunderland, a sailing instructor who lives in the middle-class Los Angeles suburb of Thousand Oaks with his pregnant wife and seven kids, opened their home to film crews four months ago.

YOU DECIDE: What Were Abby's Parents Thinking?

"The show might be about family, it might be about Abigail's trip. It's something that was shopped around," he said.

Abby Sunderland, 16, looks out from her sailboat, Wild Eyes, as she leaves for her world record attempting journey at the Del Rey Yacht Club in Marina del Rey, Calif. (AP)
Video

Abby's Parents Speak Out

Teen's parents react to her rescue

Rescuers searched Thursday for Abby Sunderland, the 16-year-old from Southern California, who was attempting a solo sail around the world and is feared lost in the Indian Ocean.

Abby, 16, set sail last January, but got stranded in the Indian Ocean last week after storms smashed the mast of her sailboat, Wild Eyes, knocking out satellite-phone reception. The near-disaster triggered a frantic international rescue effort.

The solo voyage ran into heavy criticism for its high risk and the allegedly poor planning that put Abby in the treacherous Indian Ocean right in the middle of storm season.

Sunday, she remained aboard the French vessel that rescued her, according to the ship's captain, and was making her slow voyage home.

The boat, Ile de la Reunion, is scheduled to transfer the teen to another ship. It will take her about a week to get to land, the captain said.

Standing in the driveway outside his home, Sunderland explained the theme he envisioned for the show.

"We thought it might be a good idea if it was encouraging to kids to get out there and do things," he said. Sunderland said he didn't initially get many bites.

But Magnetic Entertainment of Studio City, Calif., is already promoting "Adventures in Sunderland" and "Abby's Journey," a documentary, on its Web site
.

The studio didn't reply to e-mails and calls for comment yesterday.

Sunderland insists Abby's trip wasn't just a stunt.

The reality show was, he said, "the last thing on my mind.

"The wheels in motion for this trip had actually started when Abigail was 13 years old," he added.

Sunderland also defended his decision to let his daughter take the risky journey.

"I love my daughter dearly," he said. "I love the passion of sailing dearly, and this was about Abigail following her dream. She followed the criteria that I had set out, and met all the requirements to embark on this trip."

Yesterday, Abby blogged that she was undaunted by her misadventure, and was considering writing a book.

She called her wild ride on Wild Eyes "the best thing I have ever done or been through and I don't ever want to forget all the great times . . . or the bad ones for that matter."

The large family has long been a curiosity in the community, neighbors said. All seven children are home-schooled.

"They rarely leave their house, and they rarely talk to neighbors," local resident Brian Gonzales said.

[klaasend]

No Rose - now it makes sense to me.  See my previous post.  Living anywhere in SoCal is expensive and very few make enough money to have 7-8 kids and enjoy the boating life like that not to mention sailing around the world.

[no rose colored glasses]

No Rose - now it makes sense to me.  See my previous post.  Living anywhere in SoCal is expensive and very few make enough money to have 7-8 kids and enjoy the boating life like that not to mention sailing around the world.

It certainly is expensive living here, and I heard this on the news this morning, and was very upset about such a scheme. At least in my mind it is a scheme.