Lively Case Discussion #481 6/27/2006

[SunFreak2]

Buckeye, in response to the ideas about the HI dropoff lie, I believe that Joran and Deepak made up the HI dropoff because that was the modus operandi all the 20 times before that nothing happened.  Their game was to drug a girl at C&C's, and get her into a car before she passed out cold.  They then gang raped at will, as she was unconscious for several hours.  As dawn approached and the girl started to regain consciousness, they dropped her off near her hotel.  She wandered back to her room, went home that day, and that was that.  It had worked in the past, and so they created the lie based on past behavior.

Good afternoon everyone.

AZ, I agree.  But I don't think this gang of PIMPLES was smart enough to figure this ploy all by themselves.  They either had someone directing them in order to have them make porno videos, or they learned this method from someone older who has gotten away with it for years.  The poor girls & women who were the victims before Natalee.  While they were lucky enough to escape with their lives, they have to feel personally violated, degraded & probably angry & ashamed at themselves for getting in such a situation.  I hope they have worked through all that and now place the blame on the perps, instead of themselves.

[kuoka]

We're a non-profit. We buy such cheap crap that you've probably never even heard of it.

Well in that case... Nevermind.        

[AZLady]

Thirdstrike, I agree.  I think these goons just reacted and did what they usually do--lie and dissemble when called on the carpet for being bad boys.  They didn't connive or plan or orchestrate Natalee's death.  It happened in the course of the "boys will be boys" drugging and gang raping that occurs all the time on Aruba.  I think Joran actually believes that if she hadn't fought him, she would have been fine, just like the others he gang raped and dropped near their hotels.  Thus, he blames Natalee for "making" him kill her when she resisted their rape and violence against her.  This is just deviant thinking to the max, but we've seen it demonstrated in everything this kid does.

[thirdstrike]

Exactly.  These boys are nothing if not creatures of habit.  Heavy on the creature.

Yeah, but I believe the main reason for the lie was to throw the dogs off the scent...so to speak. They needed to divert attention as far away from the reality of the circumstances as possible.  So, like you said, they used their past history to their advantage.  And, it would have been 100% effective had the invetsigation stayed "in house".  Unfortunately for them, the eyes of the world begand to watch...

Absolutely agree.  Even though "something went wrong," they acted as if it had all gone exactly as it had in the past.  Ironic that their past behavior that they fell back upon was so unacceptable as to be labeled criminal by the Americans.  I mean, since when is drugging and gang raping considered normal behavior for teenaged boys?

Yeah, but I don't believe they included the "drugging and raping" part in their "rebound story" as part of their past history...ya know?  Not sure it'd do much to help their case...if you know what I mean.  

But, what's interesting here is that in almost every lie, there are elements of truth in order to help give it more credibility...you know?  That's why I pay particular attention to things like when they say Natalee "fell down" (which, IMO, would help explain any head trauma if they found her body)...or, the fact that she wanted to "see sharks" by the lighthouse(which again, IMO, help explain the fact that she was in that area of her own accord had they found her body there).  Things are often admitted between the lines of a lie.  It's proven human psychology...

[Sam]

Hi Monkeys,

Just a quick drive by. I had thought about adding to the story Easy and some others have been writing but Tylergal has got it to a point it will take more skill than I have to go further. Maybe Easy or Mrs Red can or even Anna. Maybe even someone who I never mentioned. It really lets me know how talented so many of our Monkeys are.

Even Terry270 when he wrote about the child dancing (on this forum a few pages back) sounded like he might be able to add to the story.

Oh Klaas, Lousw is a male. I am almost positive. Not sure on Terry. LOL

[AZLady]

I've just had a thought that perhaps this is why so many people on that island can defend Joran and look you straight in the eye when doing it.  When violence and rape and degradation are seen over and over, and it becomes commonplace, then people become jaded and accept it as a part of their life.  It no longer carries the horror and disgust that these actions cause in normal people in normal societies.  Perhaps this is why these young girls defend Joran and why the older people in that society are not up in arms and trying to stop this behavior.  They've seen it, over and over again, and it's become, if not acceptable, at least not criminal to them.  It strikes me that their attitude is more like why the big deal over this when the Americans are outraged and demand answers.  Years of this behavior, maybe even generations of it, have jaded them.

[Buckeye]

And, since porn was on when they passed LaCabana....maybe porn was on at the house when she was there (and drugged).  He was on line at 3am (porn on). He (they) left her alone for a minute, she came to, got a call off...they walked back in...and silenced her...no drop off at the tourist hotel, for this one.

[Nut44x4]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

[blah]

Been reading around.  This was posted on scrux yesterday.  Thought it was good.


Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:02 am    Post subject:    

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I think it's significant that the HI lie was made up before they encountered the Twittys......in the first place it proves the lie was not made up due to being afraid AFTER Jug supposedly got angry in front of the VDS house.

In turn, this lie that Jug scared him, shows a willingness to 1. blame someone else, and 2. play the baby card while blaming someone else.

Where 2 is concerned, you don't see Joran being scared at any time thereafter. He was not scared in jail; he was cocky. He was not scared when abruptly confronted by that CA reporter; he was extremely calm. He was not scared of Greta nor of that ABC Primetime dude; he was a calm and a bit martryish. He was not scared ever at all except for his CLAIM to have been scared of Jug that one night that he claims made him tell the HI lie.....however, as we know too, according to his interview on Greta that story was made up before they arrived to face Jug.

What this suggests to me is that 2KJ or parts thereof, knew they did not leave her at the HI and didn't want to say where they really left her, which of course is what Joran says later on when he comes out with the beach story....he didn't want his parents to think he left a girl on the beach alone. So in fact, the HI story was made up out of fear of Joran's parents not out of fear of Jug, hence Joran is taking responsibility for the HI lie AND making it out of fear of his parents. Yet he goes on to blame fear of Jug?

Now my thoughts trickle down to this still ongoing blaming of Natalee's family for being angry and causing the lie. The truth probably is that all Joran wanted was a diversion from his own behavior that night....and I hardly think simply leaving a well girl on the beach would elicit such fear from a cocky cad like Joran comes across as. His 'I'm sorry I wasn't a good boy mommy and daddy' line is a joke! And it is my opinion that it screams Joran has his parents snowed big time.

But why say she was dropped at the HI if they knew she was not. They had to know the cameras were everywhere. They had to know all the cops had to do was check them and discover this lie right away. Yet, the cops did not check the tapes right away to see Natalee being returned to the HI so they could start looking eslewhere for her.....no, they arrested 2 men as if the story were true without checking it out first. ALE jumped in on the HI story like nobodies business! They did not do their jobs. And I have to wonder if it was not just J2K but also the cops who planned this HI lie diversion ahead of time.

actually, they did already know it was a lie.  But they went ahead and arrested the 2 security guards anyway.

Do we know this as fact, or is it part of a conspiracy theory?  I believe what you say here, but I admit it's purely speculation on my part...

I dont belive in consipracy theories

[klaasend]

Hi Monkeys,

Just a quick drive by. I had thought about adding to the story Easy and some others have been writing but Tylergal has got it to a point it will take more skill than I have to go further. Maybe Easy or Mrs Red can or even Anna. Maybe even someone who I never mentioned. It really lets me know how talented so many of our Monkeys are.

Even Terry270 when he wrote about the child dancing (on this forum a few pages back) sounded like he might be able to add to the story.

Oh Klaas, Lousw is a male. I am almost positive. Not sure on Terry. LOL

oops, thank you!  Terry is also male  

[AZLady]

Of course, they knew enough to leave out the drugging and raping part of the story to the Americans.  But they did admit parts of it to their own people.  For example, Joran told his mother about Natalee's underwear and what he did to her.  This shows acceptance in their own society, but an awareness that he needed to be quiet about these things around the Americans because they didn't accept this behavior.

[kuoka]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

I have a theory as to why they're airing it all of a sudden. MONEY. As unfortunate as it sounds, Joran makes the networks $$. Just my $.02 worth anywho...    

[Jacqueline]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

Sure it is part of some agenda....

As for confusion, join the club.

[klaasend]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

I have a theory as to why they're airing it all of a sudden. MONEY. As unfortunate as it sounds, Joran makes the networks $$. Just my $.02 worth anywho...    

I agree.

[thirdstrike]

And, since porn was on when they passed LaCabana....maybe porn was on at the house when she was there (and drugged).  He was on line at 3am (porn on). He (they) left her alone for a minute, she came to, got a call off...they walked back in...and silenced her...no drop off at the tourist hotel, for this one.

Yeah, but I think porn watching for an 17 year old kid is pretty normal.  Not that it should be morally accepted.  But, I don't think it's necessarily a "red flag" here...

Remember, rape is more about power then sex.  If these boys did, in fact, rape Natalee, it was much more about forcing her to succumb then the actual act of succumbing...you know.  IMO, I wouldn't attribute it to porn watching at all...

[Buckeye]

Maybe Taco agreed to an exclusive when the verdict is in, if Greta aired the tape.

[AZLady]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

I have a theory as to why they're airing it all of a sudden. MONEY. As unfortunate as it sounds, Joran makes the networks $$. Just my $.02 worth anywho...    

I agree.

I agree, too.  Plus, the reality is that it has been 5 weeks since the court hearing.  The judge is due with a decision sooner now, rather than later.  Common sense says if we run this video again now, we have good odds of appearing to predict the decision being announced.  It's playing the odds and the odds say the decision will be here soon, very soon now.

[Buckeye]

And, since porn was on when they passed LaCabana....maybe porn was on at the house when she was there (and drugged).  He was on line at 3am (porn on). He (they) left her alone for a minute, she came to, got a call off...they walked back in...and silenced her...no drop off at the tourist hotel, for this one.

Yeah, but I think porn watching for an 17 year old kid is pretty normal.  Not that it should be morally accepted.  But, I don't think it's necessarily a "red flag" here...

Remember, rape is more about power then sex.  If these boys did, in fact, rape Natalee, it was much more about forcing her to succumb then the actual act of succumbing...you know.  IMO, I wouldn't attribute it to porn watching at all...

Not due to the porn....just not giving him a time alibi because he was on line....he could have been on line with her at the house.

[thirdstrike]

Been lurking on and off....trying to get some yard work done while it isn't raining, lol. Anyway.....I am a bit stymied as to this skit on Greta last night. I only saw the last few words spoken to Bo and wondered what they had talked about. Reading on different boards this am......now I know. I do not understand the purpose of it. There has to be a reason this was shown at this particular time and I read and think of different reasons in my own mind, but I can't pull it all together. There is a reason this is being repeated on-air. Surely it can't be out of pure desperation for a story to fill in time on Greta's show. What the hell is going on? I read the emails to Greta today on her Gretawire.....she really is taking some crap in ways and yet, somehow I can't help but think that is exactly what she expected. I don't even know what the HAY I AM saying anymore, lol.....I am sooooooooooo confused, lol.

I have a theory as to why they're airing it all of a sudden. MONEY. As unfortunate as it sounds, Joran makes the networks $$. Just my $.02 worth anywho...    

That's ALL it was about...ratings!!  There's a reason this case has been so much in the media spotlight.  It's popular (as bad as that sounds).  People want to see what happens next.  And, Greta has benefitted as much as ANYONE from this popularity.  Why should we expect anything different now?  

[Jacqueline]

Maybe Taco agreed to an exclusive when the verdict is in, if Greta aired the tape.

if Joe thinks that by showing this tape it will garner sympathy for Joran, I think he is mistaken.

Shows him for what he is. A coward.