Lost ~ Final Season

[JOLfan]

Hello NickandNora!

I've wondered about the Purgatory idea for a few seasons now.

Hi NickandNora and Jen!

I haven't had any time to jot down my thoughts on the last episode yet...but I plan to this weekend.

I did look into the Purgatory issues.  This was previously debunked by JJ Abrams.  Please see below...I found this on the Lostepedia web site:  http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Purgatory_%28debunked_theory%29


•  The purgatory theory was debunked by J.J. Abrams in a Zap2it interview published in March 14, 2005, "though he claimed to like the idea."
•  The theory was again expressly debunked by executive producer Damon Lindelof in a New York Times interview published on May 25, 2006. Noting the fact that the finale of Season 2 shows the outside world in the present (as opposed to a flashback) for the first time, Lindelof added: "People who believe that they're in purgatory or that they're subjects of an experiment are going to start reassessing those theories based on the fact that we are literally showing you the outside world."
•  This theory was rejected again by Damon Lindelof on the October 6, 2006 podcast.
•  Following the airing of "D.O.C." and Naomi's revelation that the wreckage of Oceanic Flight 815 was allegedly found and there were no survivors, the "purgatory" theory was again debunked twice; first by Damon Lindelof in an interview with E! Online [1], stating that "If we did such a thing after repeatedly stating otherwise, we'd be tarred and feathered!"; and second, by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse in the April 30, 2007 podcast, insisting out that "we were not lying, it's not purgatory" and listing several possible other explanations for Naomi's revelation.
•  This theory is almost certainly wrong now that we have seen the listening station, hard evidence that the outside world is still there.
•   The theory was debunked in Entertainment Weekly with the sentence "These people have hearts, and when those hearts stop beating, they die."
•  Not all survivors have issues we know about, also people die/disappear that are clearly not innocent.
•  Not from all people who die it is clear what they came to terms with or why they could leave the purgatory (e.g. Nathan and the Marshal).
•   Its said that Leslie Arzt died after getting over being a social outcast but first of all this problem is not serious enough to get him in purgatory and second of all the process of getting over it is no more than realizing and admitting it to Hurley.
•   The Marshal had an unfulfilled duty, upon passing on that duty to someone else he died.
•  It does not explain the Numbers. (unless the Numbers are simply a problem of Hurley which he is confronted with on the Island)
•  If the Island is a place that should decide your fate in the afterlife based on your earthly sins then why Aaron gets born here? (In the case of original sin he should have died after being baptized.)
•  If Richard Malkin is really a psychic and wants to protect Aaron then why did he put Claire on flight 815 (knowing that it would crash and all passengers would die)?
•   It's possible that Malkin actually wanted to destroy Aaron. Perhaps he knew that Claire would somehow be responsible for his death, so he encouraged her to keep him: when that didn't work, he put her on a doomed flight.
•  The theory that they all become "redeemed" before their deaths, could be nothing more than fully realizing a character before they leave the show.
•  If the Island is purgatory, all "redeemed deaths" would be caused by the Island. That calls at the very least Ana Lucia and Libby's deaths into question.
•   Welll...they were shot by Michael on behalf of Ben, who takes orders from Jacob, so...
•  Several characters, such as Juliet Burke and Ben Linus, are depicted as being most certainly alive when they arrive on the Island.
•  Richard Alpert is shown to have been living on the Island when Ben was a child up until at least the Purge ("The Man Behind the Curtain"). He is later shown to have gone off-island to recruit Juliet ("Not in Portland"), before returning at Ben's instruction ("One of Us"). This seems impossible if the Island is purgatory.
•   Unless he were an angel.
•  Jack and Kate are both shown to have returned to the outside world following the events on the Island ("Through the Looking Glass, Part 1").
•  Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse again debunked this theory in a Lost recap special when they added that the Losties are not dead and "do exist somewhere in the space time continuum"
•  With all the events from season 4, such as the freighter people coming to the Island and the flash-forwards revealing that some people will actually leave the Island, this theory seems to be finally dead in the water for good


Sorry.   

[JOLfan]

I have come to the conclusion that I didn't enjoy last weeks episode. I kept thinking about posting my thoughts and then I realized I didn't have many about it.     I am tired of Kate.  It was nice to see Claire.  The way she "knew" Aaron's name was odd.  I guess that goes with the possibility of a faint memory of life on the island.  Jack taking the poison was silly.  I kind of wish they let him swallow it.     Will Sayid turn evil?  Has Claire?  Argh!

On to last night...   I  me some Locke.  Seeing him off the island was fun.  I loved that he was with Helen.  That made me happy.  I did bother me when Helen said they should push up their wedding and then said something about Locke's father.  Uh....why would Locke want him around.  Beside stealing his kidney and crippling him the guy has done nothing for him!   

I like how the survivors are interacting off the island.  Hurley was so nice to Locke.  I wonder why these people aren't recogniziong each other from the plane.  At least Hurley...he is kind of hard to miss.  Wouldn't Rose know Hurley, her boss, was on the same plane from Australia?  How in the world did Locke get a teaching job.  That was out there.  Shouldn't you have at least some experience in teaching to be a substitute? 

What was up with the names in the cave?  What makes these people candidates and candidates for what?  I don't believe a single thing Locke 2.0 is saying.  He's a sneaky little man.  Seeing Richard so scared was interesting.  All this time I thought Richard knew what was going on but he was just blindly following Jacob.

I can't wait until some real answers start emerging!!

[jen3560]

"Flash Sideways" 

So that's what they're calling the current off island activities.  "What would have happened if Oceanic 815 had landed at LAX."

I do so enjoy seeing the prior week's episode with the captions at the bottom to explain what we can overwhemingly miss or not understand! 

I also thought it was weird that mention of having Locke's dad at the wedding.  ??  And yes, surely Rose and Hurley would have known the other was on the plane...........and maybe they did?  We haven't seen or heard any direct interaction between them at the temp agency.

I was actually kind of disappointed to see Richard so surprised, unsure, and scared.  I was hoping some answers would be forthcoming from him.

At least Locke 2.0 appears to be giving some truths to Sawyer about what in the world is going on.

Dunno about the candidates - and I wonder if it's because they're candidates that they have to be protected, and not killed?  Maybe that's why Locke was healed by the island.............because he was a candidate?  But then what about Rose and the island curing her cancer?  Makes sense for Jack's easy appendectomy recovery too.  And why was Kate's name not there?  She's still alive, but is not a candidate?

So if the candidates must not be killed, is that why everyone is so adamant to keep/get them inside the Temple?  If so, then is that why they let Kate out to find Sawyer?  If so, then the Kwan name must be Sun, rather than Jin - because they let him go with Kate.

HA!  Speculation at its finest!!! 

I don't believe that Locke 2.0 is telling Sawyer the truth about any of his "3 options".

So that little kid that both Locke 2.0 and Sawyer saw - is THAT Jacob reincarnated?  If not, who the heck is he?  Because it's obvious he's been around for forever, and knows the "rules".

So I'm gathering that everyone adhered to what Jacob told them to do, and now he's dead, he can't "protect" them from black shirt?  Only the Temple can do that?

I don't like drunk, apathetic Sawyer.  He's driving me bonkers!

I also want to know what's up with Claire?  If she became "infected" and turned bad, then when was she infected?  She left Aaron in the middle of the woods, so I'm presuming it must have been before that?  And how did both she and Sayid become "infected"?  Because I now no longer think Jacob is alive again in Sayid.

Did Ethan "infect" Claire when he took her?  Who/what/when infected Sayid?

Do you remember what Sawyer's daughter's name is?

[Kermit]

Clementine Phillips

[jen3560]

Thankies honey!!!!!!   So good to see you in here, my friend!

[JOLfan]

I finally feel the story is moving forward.   

Where did Jack’s son come from?  The fact that his alternate life is fundamentally different is strange.  The part about his appendix was interesting.  I would think as a doctor he would find it odd that the scar is non-medical.  So let’s get back to the son…who is the mother?!?  Is it his former wife, the woman he “saved”?  I was hoping they would show a picture of her at the house, but no such luck.  I’m glad he was able to connect with his son and break the cycle of the crap his father put him thru.  My sister swears that we have seen the little boy at the auditions before…the one with the father from the island.  I can’t place him.  But the fact that the father is in L.A. and not on the island goes with my theory that the island never existed in this new alternative reality.  I was proud of Christian for acknowledging Claire in his Will.  I guess there is no easy way to find out your husband/father was a cheating bastard! LOL. 

I love crazy Claire.  I guess she has taken over Danielle’s role as the crazy baby-less island lady.  Odd how the parallels are taking shape.  The temple people told Kate that Danielle has been dead for years.  Does that mean she has died since they got rescued or that she dies YEARS ago and Smokey was borrowing her body too?  Anyway…Claire seems to really settle into Danielle’s old life.  I wonder why she would be so upset if Kate was taking care of Aaron.  I would think she would want Aaron to get off the island and live a normal life.  I liked when John 2.0 came in…Claire was so blasé about it.  LOL. 

Ouch to Jin’s stitches!!   

The lighthouse…where did that come from?  I wish we would have looked at all of the degrees/names to see what was shown.  Jack went a bit postal on those mirrors…like he needs 7 more years of bad luck. 

I love Hurley and Jacob.  The thing about ink on his head…priceless.

So Sayid and Claire are infected by the same thing.  Is that Smokey?  Are we sure Smokey is the bad one?  Wouldn’t it be crazy if Smokey was actually good and Jacob was the bad one and we just assumed it was the other way around because of the typical black/white thing. 

Next week should be GOOD!   

[NickandNora]

Jack taking the poison was silly.  I kind of wish they let him swallow it.

 

[NickandNora]

I also want to know what's up with Claire?  If she became "infected" and turned bad, then when was she infected?  She left Aaron in the middle of the woods, so I'm presuming it must have been before that?  And how did both she and Sayid become "infected"?  Because I now no longer think Jacob is alive again in Sayid.

Did Ethan "infect" Claire when he took her?  Who/what/when infected Sayid?

That part confuses me. When did she get "infected"? If it happened to her the same way it happened to Sayid, then how and when? I know many think maybe Claire died in the explosion during the raid on the island to find Ben, because she was acting weird about dead Charlie...but if she was, then how did everyone else who saw her, saw her and talked with her. We know Hurley can talk to the dead and so can Miles, but Sawyer too? And is Ben infected too the same way Sayid is?

Oh my brain hurts. 

[NickandNora]

So Sayid and Claire are infected by the same thing.  Is that Smokey?  Are we sure Smokey is the bad one?  Wouldn’t it be crazy if Smokey was actually good and Jacob was the bad one and we just assumed it was the other way around because of the typical black/white thing. 

Next week should be GOOD!   

I love to read the thoughts on the show. Hubby is a big fan but doesn't get into it like I do. I rattle on and on about possibilities and after a while he's looking bored...lol...but in a good mannerly way. I can't help it and he knows it. This show makes me have to think and I love it! I love how it makes my imagination run wild and how many times the writers have totally surprised us. The ultimate surprise being that not only did they stop the crash from happening, but they're also still on the island and off of it. WHOA!!! CLEVER!!!

I'm also wondering if Smokey is bad or not. If he's bad, I wonder if Sawyer is just playing all along, fishing for more info on Smokey because of the looks on Sawyer's face. It just seems like he's saying "don't try to con a con." lol. He knows there's more to this than just leaving the island. Why do THEY have to leave? Why can't smokey just take off and leave the place he hates? Why does there have to be a "we" and he's still being so vague with Sawyer. And why is he heading to the temple if he wants to leave the island so bad?

Yup...next week should be good. Woo hoo!!

[jen3560]

I was up to my eyeballs yesterday, but have been dying to get in to this thread!!!

OK, my take on Smokey so far.

Why does he tell Sawyer that being a candidate to protect the island is just bull puckey?  He said that was all Jacob's doing, right?  But that it's all nonsense. 

Backing up a bit....

Remember Claire in Jacob's cabin with Christian?  I'm presuming that was her "friend", Smokey.  So I'm still presuming that Christian helping Locke in the bottom of the well to get him to turn the wheel so he can go and bring the rest of them back to the island was Smokey also?

So then back to what Smokey is telling Sawyer.  Contradictory, no?  Seems that it was Smokey all along who wanted all these 815 people to be on the island.  So why?  And why was it Jacob who made contact with each of them at some portion in their life?  Was it to protect them from Smokey one day in the future when they all crashed on the island?

Because back to the good vs evil thing.  Remember in the cave when Smokey and Sawyer got there, Smokey took the white (good) rock and threw it out into the ocean.  Meaning he is black and evil, right?

I'm also wondering why Claire would have to kill Kate for raising Aaron?

Jolfan wrote:

I love crazy Claire.  I guess she has taken over Danielle’s role as the crazy baby-less island lady.  Odd how the parallels are taking shape.  The temple people told Kate that Danielle has been dead for years.  Does that mean she has died since they got rescued or that she dies YEARS ago and Smokey was borrowing her body too?  Anyway…Claire seems to really settle into Danielle’s old life.  I wonder why she would be so upset if Kate was taking care of Aaron.  I would think she would want Aaron to get off the island and live a normal life.  I liked when John 2.0 came in…Claire was so blasé about it.  LOL. 

***

I'm also wondering if Smokey was using Danielle's body to help the 815 people.  Because that's what she mostly did, right?  Help them against the others?  That would make sense if Smokey wants them all there for a reason, and was keeping them (the candidates anyway) alive for some future plan of his.

I have absolutely no idea about Jack's son, or who his mother is.  I was also weirded out at Jack's apendectomy scar and his reaction to it.  It was as if he didn't ever remember it having been there before.  And isn't that the only evidence we've seen so far during these "Flash Sideways" that their time on the island really did happen after all?

The lighthouse............I'm wondering who Jacob knows is coming to the island, but doesn't want there?  Are we back at the whole Widmore thing?  Remember it was Ben following Jacob who was trying to prevent Widmore finding it again.

So is Smokey wanting Widmore there?  Does Widmore play into this as more than just an early soldier on the island?

I think that first building in the mirror Jack saw was Sun's family home.  It had an Oriental design, I think LOL.

So at least Sun and Jin are both finally headed to the Temple.  I'll be glad to see them reunited........if Claire doesn't kill Jin first.  Still wondering which Kwan it is written on the cave wall.

And where is Desmond?  Hopefully his flash sideways saga with Penelope will be coming soon!

[NickandNora]

I'm also wondering if Smokey was using Danielle's body to help the 815 people.  Because that's what she mostly did, right?  Help them against the others?  That would make sense if Smokey wants them all there for a reason, and was keeping them (the candidates anyway) alive for some future plan of his.

Jen, you just blew my mind!!! What if smokey was using Danielle like that??!! Whoa!!

I never expected Claire to react to that news in an angry way. That's so bizarre. I hope we hear some elaboration on why. That makes no sense at all.

If Jin and Sun don't hook back up soon I'm going to scream from frustration!!! At least we know they're both heading to the temple. I hope they're not going to make us wait till the end of the season to see them reunited. We've been waiting so long!

I believe you're right...that was Smokey all along helping Locke get off the island and manipulate them to return. I wonder if he's using Ben too and Ben has no clue because he had the same mission as Locke...to get them to return. It couldn't have been direction from Jacob... was it? Come to think of it, how did Ben know they all had to return to the island? Was that ever mentioned? How did he even know about there needing to be a return in a way that they all had originally arrived, all the way down to a dead guy being on the plane? Did Ben really just kill Locke because of jealousy or did he know that they'd need a dead guy to represent a dead Christian Shepherd on the return? Or was it both? Is that a major clue about the mysterious island...why the return had to be similiar to the first arrival? And my other question I'd like answered is have they been on the island many other times in some strange way that's not purgatory?

Ooh this show keeps my brain buzzing!

I would like to know where Desmond is too. He was on the plane and then poof! What a tease that is! LOL!

[Kermit]

the 3 people that are supposed to be dead Claire, Locke, Syaid are being invaded by evil to make them appear alive?????

[Kermit]

the mirror at the lighthouse is like Alice In Wonderland - they've gone through the looking glass and the way back is through that????

[NickandNora]

the mirror at the lighthouse is like Alice In Wonderland - they've gone through the looking glass and the way back is through that????

That's interesting!!! I hadn't made the connection to Alice thru the looking glass.

Is it a fact that Claire is dead? I've heard theories that she may have died during the attack on the Dharma village, but I'm not sure if she's really dead.

[JOLfan]

Me in blue.

So Sayid and Claire are infected by the same thing.  Is that Smokey?  Are we sure Smokey is the bad one?  Wouldn’t it be crazy if Smokey was actually good and Jacob was the bad one and we just assumed it was the other way around because of the typical black/white thing. 

Next week should be GOOD!   I love that piggy! LOL 

I love to read the thoughts on the show. Hubby is a big fan but doesn't get into it like I do. I rattle on and on about possibilities and after a while he's looking bored...lol...but in a good mannerly way. I can't help it and he knows it. This show makes me have to think and I love it! I love how it makes my imagination run wild and how many times the writers have totally surprised us. The ultimate surprise being that not only did they stop the crash from happening, but they're also still on the island and off of it. WHOA!!! CLEVER!!!

This show has amazed me from the beginning.  Always answering one question but creating 50 more.  It is annoying at times, but it keeps me coming back.  LOL.  I'm glad that they are ending the show on their terms, instead of being canceled by the network and not be able to wrap it up like they want. 

I'm also wondering if Smokey is bad or not. If he's bad, I wonder if Sawyer is just playing all along, fishing for more info on Smokey because of the looks on Sawyer's face. It just seems like he's saying "don't try to con a con." lol. He knows there's more to this than just leaving the island. Why do THEY have to leave? Why can't smokey just take off and leave the place he hates? Why does there have to be a "we" and he's still being so vague with Sawyer. And why is he heading to the temple if he wants to leave the island so bad?

I think Sawyer is smart enough to not trust what Locke 2.0 is saying.  With everything he has been trough in the past 3 years on the island...I think he takes everything with a grain of salt...or should I say sand.   

Yup...next week should be good. Woo hoo!!

This deserves another piggy dance....

[JOLfan]

Me in blue.

I was up to my eyeballs yesterday, but have been dying to get in to this thread!!!

OK, my take on Smokey so far.

Why does he tell Sawyer that being a candidate to protect the island is just bull puckey?  He said that was all Jacob's doing, right?  But that it's all nonsense. 

I think it is bull puckey.  LOL. I would like to know what qualities make a candidate.  Since Sawyer was a real jerk prior to the island...what makes him so wonderful now?

Backing up a bit....

Remember Claire in Jacob's cabin with Christian?  I'm presuming that was her "friend", Smokey.  So I'm still presuming that Christian helping Locke in the bottom of the well to get him to turn the wheel so he can go and bring the rest of them back to the island was Smokey also?

I believe so.

So then back to what Smokey is telling Sawyer.  Contradictory, no?  Seems that it was Smokey all along who wanted all these 815 people to be on the island.  So why?  And why was it Jacob who made contact with each of them at some portion in their life?  Was it to protect them from Smokey one day in the future when they all crashed on the island?

Good question.

Because back to the good vs evil thing.  Remember in the cave when Smokey and Sawyer got there, Smokey took the white (good) rock and threw it out into the ocean.  Meaning he is black and evil, right?

I do believe the rocks represented each of them...but I am still not convinced that black equals evil.  With these writers I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled a switch-er-oo on us.

I'm also wondering why Claire would have to kill Kate for raising Aaron?

This boggles my mind.  I would assume that Claire would be happy Aaron is off the island and has a chance at a normal life. 

Jolfan wrote:

I love crazy Claire.  I guess she has taken over Danielle’s role as the crazy baby-less island lady.  Odd how the parallels are taking shape.  The temple people told Kate that Danielle has been dead for years.  Does that mean she has died since they got rescued or that she dies YEARS ago and Smokey was borrowing her body too?  Anyway…Claire seems to really settle into Danielle’s old life.  I wonder why she would be so upset if Kate was taking care of Aaron.  I would think she would want Aaron to get off the island and live a normal life.  I liked when John 2.0 came in…Claire was so blasé about it.  LOL. 

***

I'm also wondering if Smokey was using Danielle's body to help the 815 people.  Because that's what she mostly did, right?  Help them against the others?  That would make sense if Smokey wants them all there for a reason, and was keeping them (the candidates anyway) alive for some future plan of his.

Yes...I can't wait to find this out if Danielle was a body Smokey used.

I have absolutely no idea about Jack's son, or who his mother is.  I was also weirded out at Jack's apendectomy scar and his reaction to it.  It was as if he didn't ever remember it having been there before.  And isn't that the only evidence we've seen so far during these "Flash Sideways" that their time on the island really did happen after all?

The lighthouse............I'm wondering who Jacob knows is coming to the island, but doesn't want there?  Are we back at the whole Widmore thing?  Remember it was Ben following Jacob who was trying to prevent Widmore finding it again.

So is Smokey wanting Widmore there?  Does Widmore play into this as more than just an early soldier on the island?

Ouch...I think my head is ready to explode! 

I think that first building in the mirror Jack saw was Sun's family home.  It had an Oriental design, I think LOL.

So at least Sun and Jin are both finally headed to the Temple.  I'll be glad to see them reunited........if Claire doesn't kill Jin first.  Still wondering which Kwan it is written on the cave wall.

And where is Desmond?  Hopefully his flash sideways saga with Penelope will be coming soon!

[JOLfan]

the mirror at the lighthouse is like Alice In Wonderland - they've gone through the looking glass and the way back is through that????

Well if that is the case Jack really screwed that up! I knew Jack should have swallowed the poison.   

[JOLfan]

Watching the last few minutes of the prior episode before this one...to me it seemed Claire was more jealous of Kate possibly raising Aaron than mad.  But with her craziness now who can tell.   

Well…I guess Sayid has picked his side in this battle. 

I was sad that he wasn’t married to Nadia in the alternative reality.  I wonder what “business” he was tending to in Sidney, since it wasn’t stopping a terrorist and learning where Nadia was.  I find it fascinating that these alternative realities seem to change their lives prior to Flight 815 also.  Well at least Jack and Sayid, and maybe Locke since he was married to Helen and still talked to his father.  Kate was still a criminal and Claire was still pregnant…so no much changed for them. 

What the heck did Locke 2.0 promise Sayid to make his so agreeable.  I understand that the Temple people wanted him dead...but he seemed like he was hypnotized of something.  Claire had that glaze in her eyes also.  It kind of reminded me of the Manson girls.  Very creepy.   

Sayid was crazy in this episode.  I enjoyed the fight scene between him and Dogen.  Do you think that when Dogen told Sayid not to let Locke 2.0 to say a word he meant an actual word?  Did Locke 2.0 somehow confuse/control the situation by saying hello so quickly?  If Sayid was aware and stabbed Locke 2.0 before he said hello would Locke 2.0 have died?

How did Kate and Claire get out of the hole?  Did Smokey pick them up out of it?  I missed that part I think. 

Where was Jin and Sawyer?  The look Locke 2.0 gave Kate was interesting.

So now that Locke 2.0 has a mini army it should be interesting when Jack meets up with them.  Will this be the ultimate science v. faith battle?

Why was Jin in that freezer?  I would say how random but nothing is random on Lost. 

And just because I think he is so freaking cute.....

[Kermit]

the mirror at the lighthouse is like Alice In Wonderland - they've gone through the looking glass and the way back is through that????

Well if that is the case Jack really screwed that up! I knew Jack should have swallowed the poison.   

"Through the Looking Glass" was one of the past season shows titles.

It's like 'Alice in Wonderland' where she went down the rabbit hole
not once but twice and when she came back she thought it was a dream so
she went back down the rabbit hole. REMEMBER Ben went down a hole in a tunnel
and he turns a wheel which makes the island disappear. (there are also other mentions of tunnels throughout the story)

'Wizard of Oz' uses the same premise. Dorthoy went to another world and came
back and thought it was a dream. The OZ who thought of himself as the wizard
had all the power behind the curtain in the land of OZ, but when Dorothy gets back to Kansas he is just a traveling salesman.

This is the same as LOST. The show has Oceanic flight 815 land in LA and they all have arrived and do not know each other. Hurly had all these fears before about
winning the lottery and the numbers, but by the time the plane lands in LA he is normal.


In Flashbacks we saw Ben come to the island as a boy. His father in this latest episode mentions how he took Ben to work with Dharma. On the island though, Ben went
to live with the hostiles after he killed his father and the rest of them were gassed.
Ben could never have become bad if he didn't go to the island - he would have become a
good teacher. Just like Wizard of Oz could not have had all the power, he was
a traveling salesman.

This is what I think is the premise/story of 'LOST'. I might be wrong.

[Blonde]

Who's the Mother of Jack's son?