Natalee Case Discussion #830 2/25/10 - 3/13/10

[Tamikosmom]

Thank you EURobert 


I caught that, too Can. I did not know this was going to happen. Very interesting.

All the more reason for Joran  to try to distract us from the ocean. And the cage.


Interesting to me as well in terms of the Range Rover confessions -- I don't remember reading about a 'head injury'.

Did Joran mention anything to Patrick about a 'head injury'????

He has made sure to emphasize that in EVERY OTHER STORY -- starting with dropping Natalee off at the holiday inn. Hitting her head in a pool and drowning. Hitting her head on rocks on the beach ...and drowning. Falling from a balcony 'head first'.

Does he ever mention 'head injury' to Patrick???

Good Morning Sharon

I have read the Range Rover transcripts provided in Patrick vander Eem's book DISPOSED.  If I recollect correctly there is nothing about a head injury suffered by Natalee as Joran "confesses" in regards to the events encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005.

What Joran does "confess" is that:

1.  Deepak and Satish know nothing.  They only drop Natalee and him at the beach.

2.  Natalee is a willing participant in sexual activity.

3.  Natalee suffers a seizure and appears to have died.

4.  Natalee is immediately taken out to sea in a boat by a friend he contacts and dumped overboard.  There is no mention of a cage ... Joran and friend carry Natalee to the boat.

5.  Paulus knows nothing.  He is at home sleeping.

Have a good Sunday all.

Janet

[texasmom]

http://www.clickonaruba.com/gallery/

[Blonde]

How do we apply the Police car recordings of JK2 and Joran with all these confessions now.

Joran: Don't you think that the police is interested in knowing that Satish touched a girl with the car?
[the word 'geraakt' is being used, translated here literally, but you can use the word 'hit' also in the context].

[BUCKSHOT]

One thing is for sure...

If NH's parents had not been as tenacious as they were, two black security guards would be (unjustly) rotting away in jail.

And even though a corrupt law enforcement team may have denied her justice temporarily, they sure did make them sweat it out. I mean..PVDS at his house sweating bullets. We all know locals do not sweat their balls off like that. Don't think for one moment that there weren't many a sleepless nights for those assholes. Beth had them on their toes.

Over time, the story will come out. It always does. He may be spared under their corrupt system. But as a firm believer in KARMA. Life has funny ways of working itself out...

The crime was simple, the cover-up has never stopped (to this day)...

[texasmom]

http://www.clickonaruba.com/gallery/

[Rob]

Rob,
Little "tidbits" of info: on possible locations.
(1) Deepak whizzing on side of road.
(2) 630 AM cell call (morning of crime)

Janet,
When you asked about (possible) truths that came from RR recording:
**ocean(final resting place).

I rack my brain constantly for a play by play of the night in question.
Like many, my theories change from week to week.
Sloot house was very protected, DK car cleaning story very constant.

At their ages, places to take an intoxicated potential sex target:
(1) a non-tourist area, with seclusion, that only locals would know about.
(2) Joran's pool area. Daddy wouldn't care.

Wish I knew if rock scene was a stop along the way OR a total distraction.

Things I (think I) know:
Natalee died on their watch, Paulus was highly involved in case,
ALE knows NH is dead, NH body was moved a few times,
A boat was used to finally dispose of NH, it was not a simple accident.

Random Ramblings...Sorry...
BUCKSHOT

1 - Arashi
2 - St Cruz

None of what I posted really explains anything.. just some random thoughts...

I do have a question and there are no right or wrong answers..

How does anyone explain Paulus' premeditated charge and Guido's heavy battery together...??

they would have to be in the same place at the same time right?

And Paulus has two contacts with Natalee, and Guido hired Spong - the most expensive attorney in all of Holland - I don't think he did that to just get evidence tossed - I think that was in case he went to trial...

any ideas - anyone?

how does this all work?

Guido was not a main player right off the bat. Initially it was the 3 amigos in that infamous picture seen round the world. Then, as peripheral players were added, it certainly became interesting. Each day, I remember checking in to see the latest and greatest on the case. Before we knew it, not only were we introduced to their whole web of friends, but we were introduced to their entire police force, their local media circles, and what seemed like - half the island. Steve Croes is another one that makes you scratch your head. For them to have levied charges like that against Guido tells me that he was not just an acquaintance of Joran, but more likely a "prime time player" that night. Hiring a heavy hitting lawyer only bolsters that opinion.  Their (Guido and Spong) saving grace is that they have no worries, unless Joran goes down for more than abusing a corpse. Otherwise, the act of the crime, the brutality as suggested by heavy battery, is never revealed and his involvement is a mute point.

Two contacts...This was a shocker for me at first. Thinking back, though, ALE revealing two contacts to me acknowledges their knowledge that NH is deceased. And if his contact is at 4AM, as theorized, well..that puts him smack dab in the middle of the disposal of the body along with the perpetrators of the crime. Wonder if the casino counts as one of those contacts? Also, a "middle of the night" contact with NH sure does blow a hole in his "home, sound asleep" story, doesn't it? But how can anyone even question the textbook Aruban police force? They know exactly what they are doing. After all, they did not immediately arrest J2K after everyone in the WORLD knew they were the prime suspects, and last known to be with NH. What did they do? According to their law textbooks, they instead chose to let them have 10 free days. Why? So they could be closely monitored. I definitely remember scratching my head when hearing that one. But who am I to question the greatest police force on earth..

good post Buckshot...

You know, when you add in Guido and Paulus - it becomes a very large conspiracy. I have no idea what van Cromvoirt's role in all this is, but I guess there is something more than just mentioning his name.

In a way, it seems as IF Paulus set up Natalee (that's your premeditation, I guess), and Guido thrashed her about (that's your heavy battery, again just guessing). He sure got out of ARUBA FAST. Didn't care about graduation and to heck with his new car. He was running from something, and THAT something WAS  probably Joran's motor mouth.

One contact is definitely the casino - Beth even confirms that. I want to kn ow where the other occurred, like everyone else.

It just seems strange that Paulus has the heaviest charge and a peripheral player seems to have the second largest charge. It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. How did Joran kill her without a heavy battery charge, how does he escape that charge - makes no sense.

And lastly, how did they know Guido was the batterer...???

[Rob]

http://www.clickonaruba.com/gallery/

  wow, what a set of choppers... looks like she could chew the husk off of a coconut - with ease. 

[BUCKSHOT]

http://www.clickonaruba.com/gallery/

Jossy - aka - Mr Double Agent. As I have always said, dogs do not shit where they eat.

Mr Connected doesn't know what happened? What a joke...Are you kidding me? Him and his son (aboard the Persistence) never conversed about what happened during those days. Haha - Loughing out loud...

After a certain point, anyone who told would have been considered a "rat" or a "whistleblower." Witnesses were manufactured, evidence went into a bottomless drawer in Jacobs office, Paulus got to ammend statements (like he was an English teacher with a red pen), and corrupt officials oversaw the investigation. The legitimate witness(es) and/or evidence surrounding the crime was never given a fair chance.

[Tamikosmom]

One thing is for sure...

If NH's parents had not been as tenacious as they were, two black security guards would be (unjustly) rotting away in jail.

And even though a corrupt law enforcement team may have denied her justice temporarily, they sure did make them sweat it out. I mean..PVDS at his house sweating bullets. We all know locals do not sweat their balls off like that. Don't think for one moment that there weren't many a sleepless nights for those assholes. Beth had them on their toes.

Over time, the story will come out. It always does. He may be spared under their corrupt system. But as a firm believer in KARMA. Life has funny ways of working itself out...

The crime was simple, the cover-up has never stopped (to this day)...

You are so right BUCKSHOT.

Unless Joran van der Sloot grows a conscience ... bows ... confesses all to the FBI and ... submits to a polygraphy ... not one word that comes forth out of his lips can be believed.  As long as as it is monetarily benficial directly or indirectly for both Joran and the networks/interviewer ... more changing "confession" will emerge in the future.

IMO

Janet

[Edward]

You are correct on all Mansur involvement in my humble opinion BUCKSHOT.
Orchestrated from the beginning.

[texasmom]

Rob,
Little "tidbits" of info: on possible locations.
(1) Deepak whizzing on side of road.
(2) 630 AM cell call (morning of crime)

Janet,
When you asked about (possible) truths that came from RR recording:
**ocean(final resting place).

I rack my brain constantly for a play by play of the night in question.
Like many, my theories change from week to week.
Sloot house was very protected, DK car cleaning story very constant.

At their ages, places to take an intoxicated potential sex target:
(1) a non-tourist area, with seclusion, that only locals would know about.
(2) Joran's pool area. Daddy wouldn't care.

Wish I knew if rock scene was a stop along the way OR a total distraction.

Things I (think I) know:
Natalee died on their watch, Paulus was highly involved in case,
ALE knows NH is dead, NH body was moved a few times,
A boat was used to finally dispose of NH, it was not a simple accident.

Random Ramblings...Sorry...
BUCKSHOT

1 - Arashi
2 - St Cruz

None of what I posted really explains anything.. just some random thoughts...

I do have a question and there are no right or wrong answers..

How does anyone explain Paulus' premeditated charge and Guido's heavy battery together...??

they would have to be in the same place at the same time right?

And Paulus has two contacts with Natalee, and Guido hired Spong - the most expensive attorney in all of Holland - I don't think he did that to just get evidence tossed - I think that was in case he went to trial...

any ideas - anyone?

how does this all work?

I think the premeditation for Paulus probably started in the casino, but since he'd supposedly just returned from Holland that day could there have been phone calls between Joran and him that figure into this also?  Something else that I've always wondered about.  The truth about where Sabastian was.  Did he stay with the Zeolla's while the parents were away?  Did he really stay the night there again the night Natalee disappeared?  I find it hard to believe that he was picked up by Paulus that night.

Guido...jealous rage?...ya know what I mean.  I've also wondered if Natalee may have opened her eyes at some point and Guido knew she'd seen him and could ID him, causing him to panic and cause the head injury...or she was trying to get away and he stopped her.  I hate to even think about these things.    

[Rob]

You are correct on all Mansur involvement in my humble opinion BUCKSHOT.
Orchestrated from the beginning.

I agreeeeeeee! Those Mansurs are all two-faced liars.

Well, I gotta finish my chores, I don't have Kalpoes to do my biddin', run my errands, and chauffeur me around..

have a nice day all!!

[Edward]

On the subject of Paulus seeing or meeting Natalee 2 times...

Paulus is in the casino and Joran takes his place at a table... This is one place.. He could have met Natalee there.


Is there any truth to the twitty boy being on this trip and playing cards with Joran or at least sitting at the same table ?
If so this could bring Natalee to that table through mere association to the twitty boy.. her step brother.
Yes/No?

[BUCKSHOT]

You are correct on all Mansur involvement in my humble opinion BUCKSHOT.
Orchestrated from the beginning.

Jossy was given some credibility and Aruba used that to their advantage.
He played the role like a champ. Just a genuine "grandfatherly" like figure there to help.
Sleazebag Renfro, Tickle-Me Tito, MySpace Trappenburg, and LawExpert Schippers wore their credibility welcomes, respectively.

[Edward]

When they lied about dropping her off at the hotel..
They said she got out of the car and Fell and Hit Her Head.

 

[BUCKSHOT]

When they lied about dropping her off at the hotel..
They said she got out of the car and Fell and Hit Her Head.

 

This began their accounting for head injuries...

[Tamikosmom]

BUCKSHOT

Could Steve Croes (Tattoo) and Geoffrey van Cromvoirt  (Beach Patrol/white pickup) have assisted Paulus van der Sloot in moving Natalee Holloway from the beach on the morning of May 30, 2005?  Just speculating.

My theory implies that a drugged Natalee was assaulted at the van der Sloot residence.  Then Joran, Deepak and Satish (?) drove Natalee to the beach where the plan was that she would sleep it off ... make her way back to the hotel ... pack and ... catch her flight home.  However ... Natalee has a seizure and dies.  The three "boys" panic ... quickly hide/bury her body ... contact Paulus and ... drive across the street to the Racquet Ball club.  Paulus arrives ... sends the "boys" home and ... takes over.

Janet

++++++

STEVE CROES AND GEOFFREY VAN CROMVOIRT


Connnect the Dots

On the Record w/ Greta - April 18, 2006

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: .... And when I think of Joran van der Sloot and when I think of Steven Croes and I think of this new suspect and the lies that were coming out early, very early, the moment we arrived on the island, if we find out that these three suspects are acquaintances or know each other — somebody needs to connect the dots. I mean, there certainly is a reason why Steven Croes came forward early on and stated, lied to the authorities that he had seen the two security guards taking Natalee. You know, people don't just do that for no reason, Greta. Somebody needs to connect the dots on those three, if they know each other.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192141,00.html


Same Attorneys

On the Record w/ Greta - April 19, 2006

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: John, what I heard a little bit earlier today from someone I spoke to in Aruba is that the lawyer for "G.V.C." is also the lawyer — it's a woman — who represented Steve Croes, who is the man who came forward with the false alibi to the police which supported lie number one of Deepak, Satish and Joran. Do you know anything about the lawyer representing both Steve Croes and now "G.V.C."?

JOHN KELLY: I know that's the situation. It's a woman, and that is the person who represented Croes and would be representing this individual now. And actually, Ms. Janssen, when I talked to her today, she was just getting ready to turn over the dossier to "G.V.C.'s" attorney for review before they did go into court.

VAN SUSTEREN: Now, Steve Croes, John — it was sort of a curious thing. He came forward seemingly out of the blue and said that he witnessed Deepak, Satish and Joran dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn and stumbling, and then two security guards coming up. That was a complete lie that he sort of volunteered, went to the police. He was taken into custody. He was then released. Is he free and clear of all of this, or is he still somewhat in the mix? ...

Then it's bizarre that this lawyer would represent both Steve Croes and GVC because at least here in the United States, I think most lawyers would say that there is a potential for conflict of interest and a lawyer shouldn't be representing both.

KELLY: I think that's right .....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192309,00.html


White Pick Up

Nancy Grace - July 29, 2005

NANCY GRACE, HOST: OK. Jossy, is there any way to tie in a white pick-up to this scenario?
 
JOSSY MANSUR: There`s another witness that, before that, told someone that works at the hotels that he saw a white pick-up over there by the Holiday Inn, in which three persons were also in, all of them male, carrying what looked like the body of a girl, putting it in the back of the white pick-up and driving away with it.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/29/ng.01.html


Natalee's Uncle

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #714 1/20 -
« Reply #312 on: January 22, 2008, 08:43:21 PM »

While I think that was excellent logic, I think that possibly the only difference I believe is that the boys buried her by the fishermans hut, and Paulus and Co moved her without the boys knowledge because of Joran's confession and the fact the boys recorded conversation  indicate they don't know where she is now. Also, if Lorenzo is involved, maybe Guido was there only the party was at Lorenzo's?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2532.msg331268;topicseen#msg331268

[Edward]

They say that liars often encompass small bits of truth when developing a lie so as they can remember it.

I think that may have happened.

[Red]

Before you start saying bad things about Jossy and company you might want to look at the beneficial things they did.

You are all allowed your own opinion, just keep some things in perspective.

I think you need to remember who helped in numerous searches, provided equipment and helped smooth over issues that allowed the searches of areas. Jossy provided numerous services that helped in the searches.

I will not go into great detail other than this comment, but provided any and all help with any tips that might have been things for stories or NH being taken off the island. All aspects were looked into.

Jossy is no saint, he has never claimed to be. Of course he comes in contact with all sorts, how could you not on Aruba? Hell, I did as well when I worked there.

I just want to remind every one of one simple fact, the case of missing & presumed dead Natalee Holloway is not all that different from 100's of other cases. When one has help from the outset to hush a crime up and you have friends in high places, its rather easy to do.

How many missing persons in the US have never been found, yet they have been prosecuted? The answer, many. Imagine having a mountain of evidence against some one and the DA refuses to prosecute the crime. Between politics, tourism, etc ... people just avoid the obvious.

How many cases have you ever seen where the guilty party of the crime was not the last person seen with the victim and the person who initially lies about the crime? HMM?

Just keep things in perspective folks.

Red is a firm believer in keeping his friends close and his enemies closer.

I used to chat with a certain photographer is Aruba, think I was doing that for fun?

[Edward]

Red.
My only thoughts on the Mansur group are relative to Luis M.
Obviously he was in position at that moment in history to fill many vacancy's to the story.
The court documents and the judges comments about him prove that to be fact..
Luis M. known as the BOSS in drugs and strong arm on Aruba and his partner was a Colombian.


On the subject of Jossy..
I have said it many times.. I like him .. He is my favorite Mobster Lobster. 
But questions exist and always will..

I have never said Jossy is guilty of anything..
Good job on the search itinerary from one of the richest and politically connected families in the world who know HOW to play a court system like a fiddle on Saturday night..