Lively Case Discussion #493 7/13 - 7/14/2006

[sb]

For Joran to be on that website immediate following his encounter with Natalee... that speaks volumes.

IF Natalee dies from an "accident", he HARDLY is going to log on a porno site to replay his actions toward her from earlier in the evening. He is NOT going to derive any joy from that. I could see him trying to ERASE something of that nature in his panic, but not UPLOAD it as it appears he tried to do.

He is either the most cold-blooded of inhuman psychopathic killers, OR he had his "fun", collected his loot, and served Natalee up to someone else once the video production was complete. I am wondering if at the time he went on the site, he was aware of where Natalee was, or what had happened to her.

Whatever it was, he was responsible and it was NO accident. Can I say that he killed her? Maybe not yet. But he is guilty of any number of other crimes if not outright murder.

[mrs. red]

Hey SB...

I think like Hammer said earlier it's a clue...

I immediately had the thought, OMG... he was using a porn site as a how to manual?  I can't really explain why that was my first thought, but it was - followed by or is he the "author" of the site?

[SunFreak2]

sandy leiva quoted

fisrt article below is talking about how women young and old but mostly younger are taking all sorts of pictures and plastering themn worldwide on the internet the shame of it is that these aruban wo9men are plastering pornographic pictures on the internet world wide , moat interesting is that the women go to hotels or are taken to local aruban hotels these porno movies are made and sold to other countrys and often come back to aruba.


If these Aruban girls are willing to make these porn videos & porn stills, then why do the pimps have to drug & rape AMerican tourist girls?  I realize that people have different tastes, but who would enjoy watching the rape of a girl who is not even conscious?  

[Tylergal]

For Joran to be on that website immediate following his encounter with Natalee... that speaks volumes.

IF Natalee dies from an "accident", he HARDLY is going to log on a porno site to replay his actions toward her from earlier in the evening. He is NOT going to derive any joy from that. I could see him trying to ERASE something of that nature in his panic, but not UPLOAD it as it appears he tried to do.

He is either the most cold-blooded of inhuman psychopathic killers, OR he had his "fun", collected his loot, and served Natalee up to someone else once the video production was complete. I am wondering if at the time he went on the site, he was aware of where Natalee was, or what had happened to her.

Whatever it was, he was responsible and it was NO accident. Can I say that he killed her? Maybe not yet. But he is guilty of any number of other crimes if not outright murder.

"Snuff video."  I have said that a long time.  He enjoyed it because he is a pervert.

[Anna]

[
I'm not saying it's the recovery of a body either.  I do believe there was a crime at the rocks though, evidence...blood or something.  

In the end, it makes no difference what you and I think of the videos.  I'm sure by this time the FBI has viewed at least the ones currently available on the web.  Let the experts decide.

Ain't it the truth!!   No matter how many times I call experts and tell them what's what, they have a way of just ignoring me.  Never did understand that.  

I just wish they would say SOMETHING about ANYTHING being confirmed.  How about Skeeters hard drive??  Can we say that is and that Deepak said they all had sex with her that night or is that too still up in the air??  Someone used to email Jamie Skeeters but think it was Ozziesmom and she hasn't been posting much lately.  Anyone else care to give it a shot and contact him?  

Why are NO announcements ever made?  I know, an ongoing investigation but a crumb or two shouldn't destroy it.  

[sb]

Hi mrs. red!

You're in good company, I hate the Yankees too LOL! I didn't think about y'all being Red Sox fans.

We have got to dwell on that thought about Joran. Ponder it well...

While in the midst of horrible events of some kind with a girl from America at 3 AM that morning, WHATEVER his actual activities may have been, we are finding now that while immersed in that situation, he is logging onto a PORNO SITE. Not out looking for help, or searching for "How To Treat Head Injuries" on the Internet or anything redeeming like that which might lead us to think there was an "accident". No phone calls to the police or to 911 or an ambulance service or whatever. He's calling his perp buddies on his cellphone.

This is NOT the activity of an innocent, guiltless, compassionate young man. This is the behavior of UNSPEAKABLE SCUM.

[SunFreak2]

moat interesting is that the women go to hotels or are taken to local aruban hotels these porno movies are made and sold to other countrys and often come back to aruba.

Does it say what hotels?

I'd like to nominate THE MILL RESORT  

Isn't that where the spa place is that that Michael van den Berg owns?  Is he related to the old creepy guy Martin?  Didn't one of Natalee's roommates get a call about a free spa day.  Maybe they really were trying to target a different girl.

[sb]

tyler, yes I do think the "snuff video" is POSSIBLE... but I am not sure they would risk something like that being out on the Internet. These are smart people and they would know that there is at least a possibility that they could be being monitored and /or intercepted by electronic surveillance. I think a snuff film would be moved strictly by hard-copy and hand-to-hand among trusted circles. Doing it online- that's just too explosive and risky.

[Sam]

Goodnight Monkeys,

We all know Joran did it. If we had access to all the evidence that ALE has we would have been able to prove it.JMHO

[Anna]

sandy leiva quoted

first article below is talking about how women young and old but mostly younger are taking all sorts of pictures and plastering them worldwide on the internet the shame of it is that these aruban wo9men are plastering pornographic pictures on the internet world wide , moat interesting is that the women go to hotels or are taken to local aruban hotels these porno movies are made and sold to other country's and often come back to aruba.


If these Aruban girls are willing to make these porn videos & porn stills, then why do the pimps have to drug & rape American tourist girls?  I realize that people have different tastes, but who would enjoy watching the rape of a girl who is not even conscious?  

Sunfreak, Congrats on the pups.  I have a litter due soon, too.

Oh, but they do enjoy just that and there are whole porn websites specializing in that.  They call them drunken teens/sleeping bi#c$es things like that.

Did you know that the porn industry is the leader in website technology?  They are the cutting edge, the State of the Art so to speak that all other industries, the more normal ones, will use as a model for their own websites.  Because they are so lucrative, the porn sites have the newest and best first.  

Now is that not a sad commentary on our world!!  They have live and on demand links on some of them.  Yes, I have become very knowledgeable about them something I certainly never in my wildest dreams wanted to do.  It is strange what we will do to try to help because I just want to vomit when I see them.  I do not believe in porn at all and think it nothing short of slavery in a perverted and perverse manner.  Degrading to women and children and should be illegal globally for those reasons.  Not even voluntary should be allowed as it constitutes an assault on human dignity everywhere.

JMO.

[klaasend]

moat interesting is that the women go to hotels or are taken to local aruban hotels these porno movies are made and sold to other countrys and often come back to aruba.

Does it say what hotels?

I'd like to nominate THE MILL RESORT  

Isn't that where the spa place is that that Michael van den Berg owns?  Is he related to the old creepy guy Martin?  Didn't one of Natalee's roommates get a call about a free spa day.  Maybe they really were trying to target a different girl.

I don't see that name anywhere in the chambers records:



Appearing in the Trade Register of the Chamber of Commerce and Industry in ARUBA since 16 JULY 1990 under serial number 10159.0 is the company with the tradename:
 
COOPERATIEVE VERENIGING VAN APPARTEMENTSEIGENAREN THE MILL RESORT
 
Business address    J.E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD. 330, NOORD
Legal form    COOPERATIVE SOCIETY
Name of the    COOPERATIEVE VERENIGING VAN APPARTEMENTSEIGENAREN THE MILL RESORT
company/foundation/association:
Statutory seat    ARUBA
Date of    11 JUNE 1990
incorporation/commencement:
     
NOT IN POSSESION OF A BUSINESS ESTABLISHMENT LICENCE
 
BOARD MEMBERS/AUTHORIZED PERSONS
LA RUSSO, JOSEPH;
Residing in    248 OCEAN AVE. NORTHPORT , NEW YORK 11768, U.S.A.
Born in    U.S.A., NEW YORK on
Nationality    AMERICAN
Position    SECRETARY
Effective    29 OCTOBER 1993
Authority    RESTRICTED
 
KITAMURA, VICTOR;
Residing in    2 STURTON RD. E. TOBICOKE ONTARIO M9P2C6, CANADA
Born in    CANADA on 15 SEPTEMBER 1959
Nationality    CANADIAN
Position    PRESIDENT
Effective    2 NOVEMBER 2001
Authority    RESTRICTED
 
KARAM, LUIS;
Residing in    5790 N.W. 72 ND AV MIAMI, FL33166, U.S.A.
Born in    VENEZUELA on 25 OCTOBER 1967
Nationality    VENEZUELAN
Position    VICE-PRESIDENT
Effective    2 NOVEMBER 2001
Authority    RESTRICTED
 
SANCHEZ, LIGIA;
Residing in    1A AV. CON 1A TRANS. RESIDENCIAS QUINORA, PISO 1 APTO. 12 LOS PALOS GRANDES, CARAC, VENEZUELA
Born in    VENEZUELA on 6 DECEMBER 1951
Nationality    VENEZUELAN
Position    TREASURER
Effective    2 NOVEMBER 2001
Authority    RESTRICTED
 
DE RUYTER, JAN GERRIT;
Residing in    CAYA FRÈRE ARNOLD 6, ORANJESTAD, ARUBA
Born in    THE NETHERLANDS, BREDA on 8 DECEMBER 1943
Nationality    DUTCH
Position    MANAGING DIRECTOR
Effective    2 NOVEMBER 2001
Authority    RESTRICTED
 
OBJECTIVE(S) OF THE COMPANY
THE OPERATION AND ADMINISTRATION AS PURPORTED IN ARTICLE 634G OF THE CIVIL CODE OF THE BUILDING LOCALLY KNOWN AS L.G. SMITH BOULEVARD UNNUMBERED OF "THE MILL CONDOMINIUM RESORT" WITH APPURTENANCES IN THE WIDEST SENSE OF THE WORD, INCLUDING - BUT NOT LIMITED TO- THE OPERATION OF THE TO BE SPECIFIED AS A LUXURY HOTEL IN THE FORM OF A SO-CALLED APARTMENTHOTEL AND THUS TO PROMOTE THE MATERIAL INTERESTS OF ITS MEMBERS.
FOR THE REALIZATION OF THIS PURPOSE THE ASSOCIATION CAN AT ITS OWN DISCRETION UNDERTAKE ALL LEGAL STEPS DEEMED NECESSARY, INCLUDING TO ACQUIRE PERSONAL AND CORPOREAL RIGHTS IN THE THE MILL CONDOMINIUM RESORT.

********************



Appearing in the Trade Register of the Chamber of Commerce and Industry in ARUBA since 29 NOVEMBER 2001 under serial number 28336.0 is the company with the tradename:
 
SPA AT THE MILL N.V.
 
Business address    J.E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD. 330, NOORD
Legal form    LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY
Name of the company    SPA AT THE MILL N.V.
Statutory seat    ARUBA
Date of incorporation    26 NOVEMBER 2001
     
Authorized capital    ARUBAN FLORINS 50,000.00
Issued capital    ARUBAN FLORINS 10,000.00
Paid up capital    ARUBAN FLORINS 10,000.00
Fiscal year    01 JANUARY thru 31 DECEMBER
 
DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD:
SPA MANAGEMENT & HOLDING N.V.
Established at    J.E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD. 330, NOORD, ARUBA
Position    MANAGING DIRECTOR
Since    26 NOVEMBER 2001
Authority    FULL
 
OBJECTIVE(S) OF THE COMPANY
A. HET EXPLOITEREN VAN EEN GYMNASTIEK- EN GEZONDHEIDSCENTRUM W.O. SAUNA
GELEGENHEID, MASSAGEFACILITEIT EN HET GEVEN VAN INSTRUCTIES AAN, HET
ADVISEREN EN BEGELEIDEN VAN DEELNEMERS BIJ HET BEOEFENEN VAN SPORT;
B. HET DRIJVEN VAN EEN SCHOONHEIDS- ANNEX KAPSALON;
C. HET HOUDEN VAN NATUURGENEESKUNDIGE EN FYSIOTHERAPEUTISCHE PRAKTIJK;
D. HET DRIJVEN VAN EEN "HEALTHBAR", WELKE SPORTBEOEFENAARS VOORZIET VAN
VRUCHTENSAPPEN, ALCOHOLVRIJE DRANKEN, KLEINE ETENSWAREN EN
VERSNAPERINGEN;
E. HET ARRANGEREN VAN HETGEEN DE SPORTBEOEFENAARS IN HUN SPORT-
ACTIVITEITEN KAN VERAANGENAMEN, WAARONDER DE KLEINHANDEL IN
INSTRUMENTEN, SPORTPRODUCTEN, KLEDINHG EN OVERIGE ARTIKELEN
BENODIGD VOOR DE UITOEFENING VAN DE ONDER LID A, B EN C GENOEMDE
PROCEDURES EN BEHANDELINGEN.

[Red]

One Year ago today what was going on in Aruba?

Tim Miller did Larry King and was fit to be tied ...

“Well, We Found a Spot that We think Possibly Natalee was at one time until somebody moved her. And I’m very angry.”

http://tinyurl.com/g4dk4


MILLER: Well, we found a spot that we think possibly Natalee was at at one time until somebody moved her. And I’m very angry.

KING: At whom?

MILLER: Well, I think more could have been done here. I mean, we’re not in America and we’re living by different rules, but Natalee is on this island somewhere. And again, when we first got here, we said we’re not leaving until we leave with her, and I’m more determined. I was very sad today at a press conference we had and our hopes go down. We have our ups and downs, but we’re staying here. But we’re staying here. We brought in more equipment today. And we’re not anywhere close to leaving this island.

......

Miller later goes on to say a rather interesting piece of information in that in his discussions with Police Chief van der Straaten that they have enough evidence to prosecute:

MILLER: I’ve spent a lot of time with the Police Commissioner van der Straaten, and he told me that he has got enough stuff without a body for prosecution. Our deal is to bring Natalee home. That family needs that body. They need to be able to say goodbye and start their healing process.

[Anna]

Anyone who would film it would also be a person who would be eager to get home and look at it.

HMO.  No that's insurance.  Meant JMO.  

[Anna]

It would appear that the book post from the Front page was a success ...

I think we may have to make that a weekly feature and add a chapter each time.

Yes Red that was really good. Did you read the post I made a few pages back? I will repeat it here. It is a post from Rob on blogs for Natalee. This is not the complete post. So I provided the link.

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forums/index.php?topic=4095.465

Although I do not post at SM any longer, I will ALWAYS give Red and Tom credit for having the foresight to start SM and dedicate so much of their time to this issue. I believe they are THE pioneers.

Who can make a difference? You can.. you have the ability to spend your time helping others if you truly wish to do so. If you are only here to derail others that wish to make a difference on this planet, then there is no hope for you. You need to re-evaluate your motives and place on this planet.

Who is making a difference? Jamie Skeeters is making a difference. Dr Phil is making a difference. Art Wood is making a difference. TJ Ward is making a difference. SM is making a difference. Larry Garrison is making a difference. Michelle from Michelle Says So and Aruban Boycott Blogspot is making a difference. Deetch is making a difference. Meri is making a difference. Klaas is making a diiference. Debbie is making a difference. And ofcourse Blogs for Natalee is making a difference. I hope I can make a difference.

Good grief!  And they say women have mood swings!!  

[mrs. red]

Anyone who would film it would also be a person who would be eager to get home and look at it.

HMO.  No that's insurance.  Meant JMO.  

I agree, Anna... I think he couldn't wait to view his handiwork!

Klaasend, did you say earlier that this was a site that would pay for amateur videos?

[sb]

As far as is known, according to people who are "in the know" about such things, there has never been a documented, proven instance of a "snuff film" having been circulated online. I don't think Natalee constitutes the first attempt at such a thing, and I think it would have been exposed somewhere before now if it had been done before.

The whole bang-bus genre is about drugging and rape. I think what they did with Natalee descended to that level, and then... who knows?

Yeah, that, Joran would watch under normal circumstances. My point is that IF he has knowledge of Natalee's death from something that HE wasn't responsible for, and he DIDN'T WANT HER TO DIE, I don't believe he attempts to upload anything pertaining to her.

I'm kind of trying to retrace his thinking. Of course that is confusing, messy and ugly.

[klaasend]

Anyone who would film it would also be a person who would be eager to get home and look at it.

HMO.  No that's insurance.  Meant JMO.  

I agree, Anna... I think he couldn't wait to view his handiwork!

Klaasend, did you say earlier that this was a site that would pay for amateur videos?

Yes, at the backseatbangers site you can choose amateur videos but you have to pay for it.  I was saying that the original bangbus site was a free amateur.  It evolved into a pay site but the original site is still free.

Note:  At just about all the porn sites I've seen, you can choose Amateur, Rape, etc. etc etc

[mrs. red]

Anyone who would film it would also be a person who would be eager to get home and look at it.

HMO.  No that's insurance.  Meant JMO.  

I agree, Anna... I think he couldn't wait to view his handiwork!

Klaasend, did you say earlier that this was a site that would pay for amateur videos?

Yes, at the backseatbangers site you can choose amateur videos but you have to pay for it.  I was saying that the original bangbus site was a free amateur.  It evolved into a pay site but the original site is still free.

Note:  At just about all the porn sites I've seen, you can choose Amateur, Rape, etc. etc etc

Gotcha... I was thinking the site paid you for what you uploaded... having a dyslexic moment...

[LouiseVargas]

Oy vey regarding Rob. I guess I'm going through a disenchanted state of mind. If he gives Scared Monkeys so much credit, what happened to his own credibility? Not that I am an oracle or anything like that, but I hated his teasing posts on the secret info he had. I never trusted him. Just my humble opinion. He wanted it all and I hated that he dissed Hotshot for her own investigation. I WISH he could have made a difference.

****************
By Rob:

Although I do not post at SM any longer, I will ALWAYS give Red and Tom credit for having the foresight to start SM and dedicate so much of their time to this issue. I believe they are THE pioneers.

Who can make a difference? You can.. you have the ability to spend your time helping others if you truly wish to do so. If you are only here to derail others that wish to make a difference on this planet, then there is no hope for you. You need to re-evaluate your motives and place on this planet.

Who is making a difference? Jamie Skeeters is making a difference. Dr Phil is making a difference. Art Wood is making a difference. TJ Ward is making a difference. SM is making a difference. Larry Garrison is making a difference. Michelle from Michelle Says So and Aruban Boycott Blogspot is making a difference. Deetch is making a difference. Meri is making a difference. Klaas is making a diiference. Debbie is making a difference. And ofcourse Blogs for Natalee is making a difference. I hope I can make a difference

[mrs. red]

The other interesting thing I found about what was said was that he got a virus from the porn site.... and he didn't realize it???