Bush 43's Address

[pdh3]

No one was disrespectful to Tyler or Anna, and no one said they could not post their opinions. That was never mentioned by anyone here. We are trying to have civil discussions and exchange ideas and thoughts about what our country is facing right now.
Maybe what is needed is for the conservative, right wing posters to continue to post and agree with each other, and those of us who are more moderate to liberal should have another thread to post in.

I'm more bothered by the fact that Tyler's post is not considered by some here to be a personal attack on posters who don't agree with her conservative viewpoint. It clearly was directed at us. I'm really more disappointed by that, than I am by her attitude.

[A's Fever]

Dihannah, I think you've hit the nail on the head - a total breakdown in communication.  

Anna, I believe I typed something like I don't care what anyone's politics are, just be civil.  I spoke to personal attack and manner of delivery, not content.  I expressed admiration for Tyler's previous postings.  But apparently my message somehow got garbled and was posted as an attack on opposing political viewpoints?  I am having a hard time understanding what it is you read in my post.

I believe that the offensive posts were meant to silence opposing views; I don't think I called for any such thing.  I'm here to learn, I'm here for the discussion.  I don't have strong views.  I don't have my mind made up like many here.  I'm a born fence-sitter, I live in grey area.  Discussion and debate are good, so I come for the discussion that I might find a fresh idea or two.  That's why I post so rarely: I read and I listen.  

I've noticed that many monkeys on a variety of threads are not shy about raising objections when posts offend.  So there is a precedent on the forum, and I too will speak up when I feel there is a need.

Over and out, as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing more to be said on this subject.

[nonesuche]

Sigh, I am very grateful today for one flaming feminist professor I had in college, she wasn't very nice to me either. I had an independent study under her and always prided myself on my top grades. She met with me and told me she had reviewed my file and felt I was underutilizing myself and planned to put "your back to the wall to see what you are made of".

I found her so offensive, the way she talked and the things she said, plus her extremism and how she was so darn smart too.

By the end of the course I realized I had learned so much, grown so much as a person, and even greatly expanded my own mind by having to prove my points as well as listen to hers within debate.

Food for thought folks...

[Dihannah1]

Sigh, I am very grateful today for one flaming feminist professor I had in college, she wasn't very nice to me either. I had an independent study under her and always prided myself on my top grades. She met with me and told me she had reviewed my file and felt I was underutilizing myself and planned to put "your back to the wall to see what you are made of".

I found her so offensive, the way she talked and the things she said, plus her extremism and how she was so darn smart too.

By the end of the course I realized I had learned so much, grown so much as a person, and even greatly expanded my own mind by having to prove my points as well as listen to hers within debate.

Food for thought folks...

Thanks for sharing that Nonesy,  great point here!  This is a little different though, as we are adults who don't 'have' to put up with being 'attacked',  I love a good debate with those who I disagree with. I think Afever and I are in the same exact boat here.  We are both sitting on the fence, come in here to learn.  But when people start attacking personally, it turns us off, then we just don't listen.  I am here to read both sides and am willing to listen to anybody as long as they have a good argument about something, which I have seen alot of good arguments!  There are certain subjects I feel very strongly about, and will say so, but I will never attack somebody for disagreeing with me.   So please keep up the good debating, and opposing debates, but the personal attacks to those who don't agree.  I'm not here to pick sides, just learn as I think Afever is. So here is your chance to change the minds of us fence sitters, take advantage, don't turn us off to your ideas for pettiness.

Please keep the debates going!

[nonesuche]

Dihannah1

Thanks for your response but honestly I wouldn't post all that professor said to me for much of it was demeaning at times, very demeaning. Unlike anything I've seen posted in these threads, I can assure you.

I also was 20 years old, and could have protested or whined to the Dean of my department, or dropped her class. I did none of the above, my point being we can listen and learn from others who are wise and intelligent or insightful? Everyone doesn't have to speak the same language and I have objected to drive-by hits and pure mind games on the part of some posters at times at SM, but what I haven't seen any potshots or mind games by the posters that seem to be the target this week for this discord.

I've learned a lot from Anna and Tylergal and haven't taken anything they have said as anything but what I think it's intended to do, make people wake up and think critically and not just take soundbytes from the media and politicians as  ultimate truth.

As always, JMO

[pdh3]

I don't care for that type of"learning" and I'm not buying that as an excuse for personal, insulting attacks on posters with differeing viewpoints. It's not anyone's job here to use that type of language to "open" someone's eyes. I think that's offensive too, because it implies that those who don't agree with the very conservative viewpoint are  completely wrong and must be enlightened. That's extremely condescending. If I need to find out information, then I am capable of asking.
This is not a college classroom, and no one here has a duty to teach. It's supposed to a discussion, but I can see that the discussions are going to go nowhere if you don't agree with the conservative majority.
Let's turn the tables. Maybe those of you who are in that majority could learn something from the posters with a more moderate point of view.

[nonesuche]

pdh3-

I would never choose to argue with you, we so often agree on so many things as it is. I am a 'moderate' also so perhaps that definition is changing, and with our now two-party system having literally choked out all other smaller parties, I suspect it has.

We are in a new era of global terrorism along with a global economy that has both expanded and limited our world in new ways. I see how business has changed so much I don't have a passion for technology biz as I once did as we struggle to compete with offshoring which places even our banking accounts in the reach of terrorists now, even consulting has gotten a bad name, things I never thought I'd live to see?

Politics has descended to new depths too, our media promote the mud-slinging tactics too for it generates their numbers. I just don't think the old rules apply anymore nor do the old idealogies?

It truly is a new world so I am trying to re-think my politics within that new framework, perhaps I won't even call myself a moderate any longer, just a new age citizen?

[mrs. red]

Some of you scare me more than Bin Laden.
"

Anna, I never said I disagreed with what you or Tyler are saying,  it's the above quote that bothers me.   That IS a personal attack on other posters.

Please see my post above about respect of other posters.

Is this a total communication breakdown?

OK.  I am going to damn well say it....

whenever any of the posters don't like what someone has to say, it's an attack....

but the self congratuatory posting talking about how only the liberals posting are intelligent... and how well thought out they are, etc.... or that it's racist to question the motives of a Muslim that is running for President and not admitting it.. or not wanting the Illinois representative sworn in on the Koran

excuse me but in my eyes that has been and will always be a way of calling those of us that do question these things stupid....

I was trying to be nice, stay out of this etc... but I have found that very offensive for a long long time.... and NO I do not find TYLER to be posting to anyone in particular..... she did not call anyone by name...yet, everyone felt it was ok to call her out and attack her.... that is my opinon... I don't see her telling anyone to produce pictures of themselves.... because of a comment they made... which, btw, in the grand scope of the discussion wasn't that big of a deal.  

SO, I am sure that I have pissed some of you off, that is not my intention  whatsoever.... I am just pointing out how I feel..... which btw, isn't even relevent to this discussion.... it should be about politics...

[LouiseVargas]

Mrs,

Tyler's attack on Pelosi's teeth is a direct and stupid attack. That's why I want to see her teeth. Maybe Tyler is wearing false teeth, which Pelosi is not.

I found her post very mean spirited and directed to Pelosi.

What do you mean by saying this "I do not find TYLER to be posting to anyone in particular..... she did not call anyone by name..." Well, Tyler did call Pelosi by name.

And you think my calling her out on her insensitivity (which you called an attack) is invalid? I just want to see her teeth to find out how qualified she is to know anything about dentistry.

I feel this discussion is of enormous importance since Tyler was making fun of Pelosi. Did anyone else attack Pelosi's teeth?  No, just Tyler.

There is something fundamentally wrong with making fun of people's teeth. We could add to that, making fun of people who are fat, dressed poorly, don't speak English well, drive beat up old cars, have thin hair ... when will this stop. You say this is not a big deal. To me, ANY personal attacks are a BIG deal.

[A's Fever]

Some of you scare me more than Bin Laden.
"

Anna, I never said I disagreed with what you or Tyler are saying,  it's the above quote that bothers me.   That IS a personal attack on other posters.

Please see my post above about respect of other posters.

Is this a total communication breakdown?

OK.  I am going to damn well say it....

whenever any of the posters don't like what someone has to say, it's an attack....

but the self congratuatory posting talking about how only the liberals posting are intelligent... and how well thought out they are, etc.... or that it's racist to question the motives of a Muslim that is running for President and not admitting it.. or not wanting the Illinois representative sworn in on the Koran

excuse me but in my eyes that has been and will always be a way of calling those of us that do question these things stupid....

I was trying to be nice, stay out of this etc... but I have found that very offensive for a long long time.... and NO I do not find TYLER to be posting to anyone in particular..... she did not call anyone by name...yet, everyone felt it was ok to call her out and attack her.... that is my opinon... I don't see her telling anyone to produce pictures of themselves.... because of a comment they made... which, btw, in the grand scope of the discussion wasn't that big of a deal.  

SO, I am sure that I have pissed some of you off, that is not my intention  whatsoever.... I am just pointing out how I feel..... which btw, isn't even relevent to this discussion.... it should be about politics...

Mrs. R,

I would like to say that I did not call Tyler out and attack, I objected to her manner of commenting.  In my two years on the board I have never done that previously, so it is not something I take lightly or do frequently and it would be nice if someone would listen to me, just as you all are demanding to be listened to as well.  However, that is obviouly not going to happen. Since Tyler's comments have been almost uniformly defended supported, I can only conclude that these types of comments are not only welcome but encouraged on the board and we are all free to comment in this manner without reproach.

[A's Fever]

I have to admit, I am taken aback by the deep hostilities evidenced along ideological lines here in the Political Forum.  We are people who came together for one common interest, Natalee, and for the most part have gotten along well and posted with respect for one another.  Obviously, that is not happening here in the PF anymore.

It makes me wonder if this little forum accurately reflects what is happening across the country? Is our nation so deeply divided across party lines?  If so, such a deep division can't be good for our future, especially at such a dangerous and critical time in history.  Politics is full of mud-slinging and political rhetoric; the two party system is by nature divisive and promotes distrust.  What can be done at this point to promote healing and dialogue in our nation, for a common goal and the common good?

[mrs. red]

Mrs,

Tyler's attack on Pelosi's teeth is a direct and stupid attack. That's why I want to see her teeth. Maybe Tyler is wearing false teeth, which Pelosi is not.

I found her post very mean spirited and directed to Pelosi.

What do you mean by saying this "I do not find TYLER to be posting to anyone in particular..... she did not call anyone by name..." Well, Tyler did call Pelosi by name.

And you think my calling her out on her insensitivity (which you called an attack) is invalid? I just want to see her teeth to find out how qualified she is to know anything about dentistry.

I feel this discussion is of enormous importance since Tyler was making fun of Pelosi. Did anyone else attack Pelosi's teeth?  No, just Tyler.

There is something fundamentally wrong with making fun of people's teeth. We could add to that, making fun of people who are fat, dressed poorly, don't speak English well, drive beat up old cars, have thin hair ... when will this stop. You say this is not a big deal. To me, ANY personal attacks are a BIG deal.

Then LV, you will need to stop posting about Bush's stupidity.... I have seen you say that Bush is insane, etc.... why is that different? Seems to me that it isn't.  If Tyler says that Pelosi looked like she swallowed a tooth then that is how Pelosi looked to her.... it was not a personal attack on any poster in this forum. peroid. again just my two cents.

[mrs. red]

I have to admit, I am taken aback by the deep hostilities evidenced along ideological lines here in the Political Forum.  We are people who came together for one common interest, Natalee, and for the most part have gotten along well and posted with respect for one another.  Obviously, that is not happening here in the PF anymore.

It makes me wonder if this little forum accurately reflects what is happening across the country? Is our nation so deeply divided across party lines?  If so, such a deep division can't be good for our future, especially at such a dangerous and critical time in history.  Politics is full of mud-slinging and political rhetoric; the two party system is by nature divisive and promotes distrust.  What can be done at this point to promote healing and dialogue in our nation, for a common goal and the common good?

A'sFever, I will tell you without uncertainty at all that it is exactly what is going on in the Country...

where I live in New England - very very blue democrat area -  I see cars (even the Benz's )covered in anti Americian... yes, anti AMerican stickers - such as if the USA wants to attack they should kill all the SUV drivers - and things like "The only Bush I trust is my own"....now I for one regardless of afliation would never dream of demeaning myself in that manner.... but it's a fact.... and I hear ppl speak of how "those stupid southerners are to blame, they voted him in office" etc.... even my boss spoke the other day about only voting party line (he is hard core Democrat and threatened to fire me if I did not remove my Bush 04 sticker... which btw was small and on my CAR.....)

and when I visit my relatives in the South  I see the opposite... yes, politics is causing deep bitterness...... the discourse is ugly... in fact, so ugly that it is down right pleasant in here.... that is what is really shocking.

[nonesuche]

wow mrs, glad I don't have a boss commenting on my politics  

I am interested to hear what Guiliani says on some of these topics and also for the democrats, I don't see Edwards joining in the mud-slinging full force. IMO Hillary is leading that brigade currently, my fingers are also tired of tapping out comments to her website that I never receive responses to already.

SO is Hillary's strategy to capitalize on all the discord? I think it is.

[Dihannah1]

Some of you scare me more than Bin Laden.
"

Anna, I never said I disagreed with what you or Tyler are saying,  it's the above quote that bothers me.   That IS a personal attack on other posters.

Please see my post above about respect of other posters.

Is this a total communication breakdown?

OK.  I am going to damn well say it....

whenever any of the posters don't like what someone has to say, it's an attack....

but the self congratuatory posting talking about how only the liberals posting are intelligent... and how well thought out they are, etc.... or that it's racist to question the motives of a Muslim that is running for President and not admitting it.. or not wanting the Illinois representative sworn in on the Koran

excuse me but in my eyes that has been and will always be a way of calling those of us that do question these things stupid....

I was trying to be nice, stay out of this etc... but I have found that very offensive for a long long time.... and NO I do not find TYLER to be posting to anyone in particular..... she did not call anyone by name...yet, everyone felt it was ok to call her out and attack her.... that is my opinon... I don't see her telling anyone to produce pictures of themselves.... because of a comment they made... which, btw, in the grand scope of the discussion wasn't that big of a deal.  

SO, I am sure that I have pissed some of you off, that is not my intention  whatsoever.... I am just pointing out how I feel..... which btw, isn't even relevent to this discussion.... it should be about politics...

Excuse me, I feel the need to defend myself here.  First I want to point out, if you read most of my posts, I am in agreement with most of what Mrs. Red, Tyler, Anna, etc. say.  I consider myself conservative, with a few moderate ideals. You are preaching to the choir here.  I fully stand by Bush and his decision, etc....  There are only a few things I may not be in agreement with, or am on the fence about, but minimal.  So I am not speaking out against anybody's opinions,  I am speaking out for a few hateftul remarks that I do not think were necessary on either side!  I cannot not stay quiet when I think somebody is bashing other posters, even those I agree with.  (comparing other posters to Bin Laden, is downright disrespecful).  And if I took it wrong, I apologize, but I read it within the context of the statement, my perception,  I read it negatively, as others did too.  If I am truly wrong and did not understand the statement, then please explain.  I am cannot for the life of me, come up with anything but what I read into it.

I am sorry Mrs. Red you live in such a blue state and surrounded by dems. who do NOT respect your feelings, how horrible to have to deal with.   I do commend you for being surrounded by a majority and sticking to your beliefs!   You show alot of integrity.  Because of what you go through at work, I would think you would be more likely to speak out on here to those who do the same, regardless of which party they believe.

BTW, what your boss did about the bumper sticker,  almost sounds like a legal issue to me.  If a boss where I worked did that, they would likely be marched out the door by HR for workplace harrasment!

I do hope you all see my point, as I am open to others as well.  Just not negative attacks is all.  Again, for those ideals I sit on the fence about?  I WANT to read both sides,  I am hear to see all sides in a civil, respecful manner, please?

[pdh3]

wow mrs, glad I don't have a boss commenting on my politics  

I am interested to hear what Guiliani says on some of these topics and also for the democrats, I don't see Edwards joining in the mud-slinging full force. IMO Hillary is leading that brigade currently, my fingers are also tired of tapping out comments to her website that I never receive responses to already.

SO is Hillary's strategy to capitalize on all the discord? I think it is.

I see Hillary as divisive. This country is in desparate need of someone who can unite us in a common purpose again. I don't see her as that person.

[mrs. red]

wow mrs, glad I don't have a boss commenting on my politics  

I am interested to hear what Guiliani says on some of these topics and also for the democrats, I don't see Edwards joining in the mud-slinging full force. IMO Hillary is leading that brigade currently, my fingers are also tired of tapping out comments to her website that I never receive responses to already.

SO is Hillary's strategy to capitalize on all the discord? I think it is.

I see Hillary as divisive. This country is in desparate need of someone who can unite us in a common purpose again. I don't see her as that person.

well we agree on this.... I have other issues with HIllary.... but I agree with you 100%