Lively Case Discussion #574 1/15 - 1/17/2007

[Carnut]

Hey, monkeys! Glad to read that John Kelly was on tv saying what he was saying.

Long day today. My usual 12 hour work day that was continuously interupted over Mom related issues~ my younger sister having a breakdown worrying about who would assist Mom and when; visiting nurse doing an intake that lasted well beyond my lunch "hour"; Mom needing help getting up to go to the bathroom while I was in the midst of working with a client who was in a moderate level crisis (younger sister also calling during time with client); calling oldest sister to ask if rumor was true that she was considering coming down to take care of Mom, and if so, then please do so   ; younger sister fretting over big sister not being able to afford to take more time off from work (told her big sis is smart enough and has good enough sense to not booger herself up financially); arranging overnight care; getting my friend to stay with Mom a few hours and then my brother relieve her until my 12 hour day was over; relieving brother and taking care of Mom while younger sister called yet again to fret over whether medications were being given   ; keeping Justin happy and quiet while I tended to Mom. Whew! Tomorrow will be better. Neice will be refreshed and will relieve overnight aide for hire, visiting nurse will come over (PT and OT will be coming in too), and big sis will arrive in the afternoon from Erie, PA (barring impassable snow). Big sis managing the bulk for a few days will give us time to locate more aides for hire and figure out schedules better. Younger sis advised to stay home, take care of her own family, and regroup as she will be needed in the schedule down the road.

Ain't it great to have family.

[Tibrogargan]

Klaas

Many thanks.

OK Monkeys : all together now .....

Klaas is a legend

[justinsmama]

I swear, this has brought out both the best in all of us as well as pushed each and everyone's personal buttons.


I am convinced that they drugged Natalee. The bastards.

[klaasend]

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4571.html

GBL, or Gamma Butyrolactone, is an industrial solvent used in the production of GHB. It is used in making paint strippers and surface cleaners. BD, or 1,4 Butanediol, is an industrial solvent that also turns into GHB in the body. It is marketed and sold as a printer cleaner and nail polish remover.

[Tibrogargan]

Hey, monkeys! Glad to read that John Kelly was on tv saying what he was saying.

Long day today. My usual 12 hour work day that was continuously interupted over Mom related issues~ my younger sister having a breakdown worrying about who would assist Mom and when; visiting nurse doing an intake that lasted well beyond my lunch "hour"; Mom needing help getting up to go to the bathroom while I was in the midst of working with a client who was in a moderate level crisis (younger sister also calling during time with client); calling oldest sister to ask if rumor was true that she was considering coming down to take care of Mom, and if so, then please do so   ; younger sister fretting over big sister not being able to afford to take more time off from work (told her big sis is smart enough and has good enough sense to not booger herself up financially); arranging overnight care; getting my friend to stay with Mom a few hours and then my brother relieve her until my 12 hour day was over; relieving brother and taking care of Mom while younger sister called yet again to fret over whether medications were being given   ; keeping Justin happy and quiet while I tended to Mom. Whew! Tomorrow will be better. Neice will be refreshed and will relieve overnight aide for hire, visiting nurse will come over (PT and OT will be coming in too), and big sis will arrive in the afternoon from Erie, PA (barring impassable snow). Big sis managing the bulk for a few days will give us time to locate more aides for hire and figure out schedules better. Younger sis advised to stay home, take care of her own family, and regroup as she will be needed in the schedule down the road.

Whew!!   Justinsmama,  I am exhausted by just reading your schedule.  Hope you have a more organised day tomorrow.   Hugs to you and your mother.

[SunFreak2]

GHB used MEDICALLY


GHB has been used as a general anesthetic, and a hypnotic in the treatment of insomnia. GHB has also been used to treat clinical depression and to improve athletic performance.

In Italy, under the trade name Alcover (ATC code N07BB), GHB is used in the treatment of alcoholism (50 to 100 milligrams per kilogram per day, in 3 or more divided doses), both for acute alcohol withdrawal and medium to long term detoxification.[citation needed] An author/scientist by the name of Gian Luigi Gessa has been researching alcoholism and the effects of various drugs to persons afflicted with said disease for the past ten years. His studies in 1998 note that GHB, as a pharmaceutical aid, can be much less toxic and much more effective than the leading pharmaceutical compound (disulfiram).[citation needed]

In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration permits the use of GHB under the trade name Xyrem to reduce the number of cataplexy attacks in patients with narcolepsy; in clinical trials Xyrem significantly reduced cataplexy attacks at a dose of 6000mg - 9000mg per night. This is around three times the dose used recreationally, but almost all narcolepsy patients in the clinical trials were already stabilized on CNS stimulants such as modafinil; in patients not prescribed modafinil this dosage could be dangerous and should be reduced appropriately. Also the prescribing information for Xyrem states that patients should take the dose immediately before going to bed, and then a second dose 3-4 hours later. The maximum dose taken at one time should not exceed 4500mg. Patients with hepatic insufficiency (compromised liver function) have slower clearance of GHB and require reduced doses, typically half the normal dose. Xyrem oral solution is standardised to 500 mg Na.GHB / 1 mL water, buffered to pH 7.5 with malic acid.

Do you really think that FDA would allow GHB to be used as a medication if it is a cleaning solvent?

[Anna]

Plus it's very possible Natalee did have someone chocolate to eat that night.

Well!  SOMEONE, Klaas?  LOL!!    But yes, she did apparently eat a full dinner with the group and could have had any number of chocolate things for desert.  Or bought a Kit Kat out of a vending machine somewhere along the way.  Maybe they mixed it with Yoo Hoo or Chocolate Soldiers to mask the taste or anything could have happened.

But until better evidence is presented than that in the PDF format, it looks good to me.  I certainly am inclined to take the word of two study groups over that of individuals without the research facilities, etc. that university hospitals have.

[sb]

Hi everyone,

I am just now catching up and seeing the speculation about "chocolate" and "cleaning fluid". And the chemical similarity to GHB.

The problem we have is that there are, realistically, 2 ways (and ONLY 2 ways) that combo could be present in the car:

1. Natalee vomited a mixture of chocolate and traces of the other substances (GHB, etc) she was forced to ingest unknowingly

2. Someone smeared chocolate in the car and Deepak tried to clean it up

The second possibility is a convenient smokescreen to hide behind to obscure the reality of the first.

THE DUTCH FORENSIC INVESTIGATORS WOULD LIKELY KNOW THAT.

[justinsmama]

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4571.html

GBL, or Gamma Butyrolactone, is an industrial solvent used in the production of GHB. It is used in making paint strippers and surface cleaners. BD, or 1,4 Butanediol, is an industrial solvent that also turns into GHB in the body. It is marketed and sold as a printer cleaner and nail polish remover.

Well, there ya go.

[klaasend]

GHB is manufactured readily from its precursor, gamma-butyrolactone (GBL). GBL is a solvent found in floor cleaning products, nail polish, and superglue removers. Saponification of the lactone with sodium hydroxide in the form of lye results in nearly quantitative conversion. This method has drawbacks, however, because several cases have reported caustic alkali ingestion from undissolved lye. GBL also undergoes conversion into GHB in vivo and, accordingly, is associated with the same symptoms. GBL is more bioavailable and more potent than GHB on an equimolar basis

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic848.htm

[justinsmama]

GHB is manufactured readily from its precursor, gamma-butyrolactone (GBL). GBL is a solvent found in floor cleaning products, nail polish, and superglue removers. Saponification of the lactone with sodium hydroxide in the form of lye results in nearly quantitative conversion. This method has drawbacks, however, because several cases have reported caustic alkali ingestion from undissolved lye. GBL also undergoes conversion into GHB in vivo and, accordingly, is associated with the same symptoms. GBL is more bioavailable and more potent than GHB on an equimolar basis

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic848.htm

There ya go again!

Goodnight, monkeys. XXOO

[bleachedblack]

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4571.html

GBL, or Gamma Butyrolactone, is an industrial solvent used in the production of GHB. It is used in making paint strippers and surface cleaners. BD, or 1,4 Butanediol, is an industrial solvent that also turns into GHB in the body. It is marketed and sold as a printer cleaner and nail polish remover.

It burns into the body therefore they neutralize the acid effect with lye......Yum. It is then realitively safe for consumption  

[sb]

The perps wouldn't have needed a drug supplier.

They just needed to stop at the cosmetics counter at the drugstore.

[justinsmama]

Oh yeah, one more OT. My birthday present to myself may arrive tomorrow. Loads of computer memory! Whoohoo!

[Carnut]

Oh yeah, one more OT. My birthday present to myself may arrive tomorrow. Loads of computer memory! Whoohoo!

Are you gonna have enough time to enjoy it?

[Anna]

Sunfreak,
Artificial sweetener is the same as some well known ant killers so I don't ever presume anything about the government in that regard.  Ditto to fluoride in our drinking water and all the rest.

And I don't even think the end product would be exactly GHB necessarily but something close enough to do the trick so to speak.  No, I seriously doubt it would be crystal clear and pure GHB of medicinal and pharmaceutical quality but think it is likely sufficient for their intended purposes.

There used to be that website sleepingb*tches.com that talked about being able to make date rape drugs from things at hand.  Would it be marketable to hospitals for surgical purposes.  No way but then that's not their objective.

.

[sb]

Any strong base, such as bleach, would probably do the same thing.

Lye would be hard for the guys to get on their own. Bleach wouldn't.

[bleachedblack]

Nite Justinsmama, say goodnight to Mom for us.  

[Kat_Gram]

Now, when Shawn was first taken does anyone know if he was taken to that address or was Devlin living elsewhere  ?

I read somewhere that Devlin moved into the apartment in 2002 - not sure of the month.  Shawn was abducted in Oct 2002.  He took Ben there immediately and no one seemed to notice.

TY for the info. I just think that the " experts" could learn alot from this one.
BoBo2, where is the avatar ? Didn't you have a cutie-pie puppy ?

[klaasend]

Sunfreak - there is the FDA approved GHB and the home grown variety.  It's the home grown variety in which the cleaning solvent is used.