Lively Case Discussion #574 1/15 - 1/17/2007

[sb]

Tibrogagrgan, I don't think Lysol is in the same category as lye/sodium hydroxide/Drano, etc. It is more of a germicidal agent than a caustic-basic substance.

I ain't drinkin' any of THAT, either, though.

[Anna]

And Lysol was originally so named because it did contain some component of lye.  I wonder if it is the same in Aruba and Latin America as in this country or if the formula is different as so many things are.

[bleachedblack]

And Lysol was originally so named because it did contain some component of lye.  I wonder if it is the same in Aruba and Latin America as in this country or if the formula is different as so many things are.

If they use it, I would guess they import it from here like so many other things....

[Tibrogargan]

And Lysol was originally so named because it did contain some component of lye.  I wonder if it is the same in Aruba and Latin America as in this country or if the formula is different as so many things are.

Yes Anna it was the name that made me think it had to have some connection to lye.

Must away now - will check back later but may be too late for most monkeys.
All have a good evening.  Sleep well and I hope any monkeys that are not very well do feel lots better tomorrow.
Nite monkeys.

[Anna]

And then there may be no connection at all but that study is more impressive to me that any individual opinions to the contrary as far as the similarities in the two compounds.  As I said, if anyone has serious differences with it, the best thing to do would be to present any questions to the two university study groups who did it.


I am sure they would be better informed on the subject by far than any of us could possibly be.  A substance does not have to be pure and exact to work.  I am quite sure these kids who cook meth all the time alter the formula depending on what they have available at the time they need to cook up a batch.  Would even venture that no two batches are identical either.  I doubt if they still have presence of mind enough to duplicate their efforts for one thing.  Still in all, it basically seems to work for them.

[sb]

OK, looking at the back of a bottle of Lysol I have in the bathroom, I see no ingredients listed.

I DO see a notification that the antidote if ingested, is to drink large quantities of milk, or to eat egg whites. That sounds more like neutralization of an acidic substance rather than a basic substance.

[sb]

And with that I am going to retire for the night! Basic Chemistry 101 is now dismissed LOL. Seriously, I am falling asleep at my keyboard!

[Lala'sMom]

Doesn't it contain phenols and carbolic acid or something like that?

[Lala'sMom]

Oh well, I guess Tibro forgot to sweep...Hugs to Nemo everyone.

[klaasend]

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=18001143

Brand Information  
Brand Name: Lysol Brand All Purpose Cleaner With Bleach (trigger bottle)
Form: liquid
Product Category: Home inside >> Cleaner >> multipurpose
Home inside >> Bathroom & Kitchen >> multipurpose cleaner
 
Customer Service No.: 800-228-4722
Date Entered: 2005-01-17  
Related Items: Products with similar usage in this database
 
Ingredients from MSDS/Label  
Chemical CAS No / Unique ID Percent
Sodium hydroxide 001310-73-2 0.63
Sodium hypochlorite 007681-52-9 2.5

Edited to add:
Chemical Information  
Chemical Name: Sodium hydroxide
CAS Registry Number: 001310-73-2
Synonyms: Caustic soda; Soda lye; Ascarite; Sodium Hydroxide [USAN]; Sodium hydroxide (Na(OH))

[crazybabyborg]

The Lysol Concentrate (LC) contains the following active ingredients:

Ethanol/SD Alcohol 40 1-3%
Isopropyl alcohol 1-2%
p-Chloro-o-benzylphenol 5-6%
Potassium hydroxide 3-4%

[crazybabyborg]

The ingredients for the LAPCT is:

Alkyl (C12-C18) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride 0.08%
Alkyl(C12-16)dimethylbenzylammonium chloride 0.02%
 ( Lysol All Purpose Cleaner )

[klaasend]

CBB - check out that link I posted above, it's very helpful

GOODNIGHT ALL!

[crazybabyborg]

Yep, you and I were looking at the same time, but you looked "better"!

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak,
Artificial sweetener is the same as some well known ant killers so I don't ever presume anything about the government in that regard.  Ditto to fluoride in our drinking water and all the rest.

And I don't even think the end product would be exactly GHB necessarily but something close enough to do the trick so to speak.  No, I seriously doubt it would be crystal clear and pure GHB of medicinal and pharmaceutical quality but think it is likely sufficient for their intended purposes.

There used to be that website sleepingb*tches.com that talked about being able to make date rape drugs from things at hand.  Would it be marketable to hospitals for surgical purposes.  No way but then that's not their objective.

.

I understand what you are saying.  The FDA is very strict about the formulations of medications and has strict guidelines for the companies/plants that actually produce the product.  

Obviously with these home recipes for making GHB, it would depend upon the skill of the chemist in measuring the chemicals, the purity of the chemicals they are using, their skill at combining the chemicals, and supervising the chemical reactions.  In other words, these home chemists do not have the controls that pharmaceutical companies have, nor the equipment to make the product uniformly. I agree that what these home chemists make can have the desired effect or can kill the recipient because of inaccuracy in dosage.

What I am trying to say is that just because one of the components of GHB is a solvent, does not make the final product a cleaning solvent.  The chemical reactions rearrange the compounds into different compounds. These new compounds have different properties and functions from the original compounds (substrates).

I think it is erroneous and misleading to call GHB a cleaning fluid.

I appreciate you sending me the article/study. I have not read that article and I probably won't, although I have a BS in Chemistry.  The breakdown products of GHB in the body and the effect they have on the body are more important than discussing how GHB is made, imo.

I do believe that Natalee was slipped GHB in her drink at CnC's.

[bleachedblack]

The ingredients for the LAPCT is:

Alkyl (C12-C18) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride 0.08%
Alkyl(C12-16)dimethylbenzylammonium chloride 0.02%
 ( Lysol All Purpose Cleaner )

Carbolic Acid =  C6H5OH  

So they are similar lysol and carbolic acid. Both strong poisons. Women used to use these for eliminate unwanted pregnancies. Taken intrauterine /internally this would often kill the fetus and/or the mother.......how did we get to this paart of the converstion?........on that note  NITE MONKEYS

Play nice

[SunFreak2]

Chloroform which is very easy to administer is also easily made from nail polish remover and bleach.

[Carnut]

Sunfreak,
Artificial sweetener is the same as some well known ant killers so I don't ever presume anything about the government in that regard.  Ditto to fluoride in our drinking water and all the rest.

And I don't even think the end product would be exactly GHB necessarily but something close enough to do the trick so to speak.  No, I seriously doubt it would be crystal clear and pure GHB of medicinal and pharmaceutical quality but think it is likely sufficient for their intended purposes.

There used to be that website sleepingb*tches.com that talked about being able to make date rape drugs from things at hand.  Would it be marketable to hospitals for surgical purposes.  No way but then that's not their objective.

.

I understand what you are saying.  The FDA is very strict about the formulations of medications and has strict guidelines for the companies/plants that actually produce the product.  

Obviously with these home recipes for making GHB, it would depend upon the skill of the chemist in measuring the chemicals, the purity of the chemicals they are using, their skill at combining the chemicals, and supervising the chemical reactions.  In other words, these home chemists do not have the controls that pharmaceutical companies have, nor the equipment to make the product uniformly. I agree that what these home chemists make can have the desired effect or can kill the recipient because of inaccuracy in dosage.

What I am trying to say is that just because one of the components of GHB is a solvent, does not make the final product a cleaning solvent.  The chemical reactions rearrange the compounds into different compounds. These new compounds have different properties and functions from the original compounds (substrates).

I think it is erroneous and misleading to call GHB a cleaning fluid.

I appreciate you sending me the article/study. I have not read that article and I probably won't, although I have a BS in Chemistry.  The breakdown products of GHB in the body and the effect they have on the body are more important than discussing how GHB is made, imo.

I do believe that Natalee was slipped GHB in her drink at CnC's.

So, if cleaning fluid was found, it didn't come from GHB in her drink?

[Anna]

Bam contains sulfamic acid acid.

It's not an article but a PDF of an actual university research study.  It's 109 pages long and yes, I have read most of it but not every word.

There is absolutely no proof of anything.  All we have is the presence of Natalee in the back seat of the car and the presence of this cleaning fluid in the back seat of the car.  Same location.

Even a degreaser like Dawn can be called a "solvent" because it dissolves grease.  Kids huff all kinds of things to get high.  I used to think it was just the propellant in aerosol products but know a kid who died from butane fluid only.

Not knowing what specifically a person may have been given by way of drugs makes it very difficult to discuss what the effects might be.  She was fine one minute and fifteen minutes later was reportedly having trouble walking.  Eyewitness report only other than the report about the cleaning fluid in the back seat where she was.

I try to present the information only.  I am sure Peter deVries has his own thoughts on whether or not there is a connection and what the possible effects might be and would also likely already know of the local practice of brewing up stuff.  My ego is not so big that I think he is likely to be swayed by any opinion that I might state so just like to put it out there and let his staff know where it is.  Seems to be pretty universal with kids these days unfortunately, experimenting with strange chemicals.  Always some up to something in every location.  

And I don't care whether or not anybody thinks there is a connection or thinks I sat down and typed out a 109 page fake research study. The information is there to take or leave.  I have never made a serious post to this forum without citing sources and my reason for doing so. I don't just "get the idea" and present it as fact and I don't like for people to imply that I do.  If I post it, I have a reason, a source or sources.  If it is based on rumor, I clearly state so at the time I post.  

And I wish everyone else did so, too.  I seriously doubt Peter deVries is interested in rumors or likely to be led astray by any information I might provide to his staff.  Something tells me he can handle it.  But it seems there are always going to be those with only negative things to say no matter what one does.  Or doesn't do.  Sorry, can't base my actions on that.

Goodnight, all.

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak,
Artificial sweetener is the same as some well known ant killers so I don't ever presume anything about the government in that regard.  Ditto to fluoride in our drinking water and all the rest.

And I don't even think the end product would be exactly GHB necessarily but something close enough to do the trick so to speak.  No, I seriously doubt it would be crystal clear and pure GHB of medicinal and pharmaceutical quality but think it is likely sufficient for their intended purposes.

There used to be that website sleepingb*tches.com that talked about being able to make date rape drugs from things at hand.  Would it be marketable to hospitals for surgical purposes.  No way but then that's not their objective.

.

I understand what you are saying.  The FDA is very strict about the formulations of medications and has strict guidelines for the companies/plants that actually produce the product.  

Obviously with these home recipes for making GHB, it would depend upon the skill of the chemist in measuring the chemicals, the purity of the chemicals they are using, their skill at combining the chemicals, and supervising the chemical reactions.  In other words, these home chemists do not have the controls that pharmaceutical companies have, nor the equipment to make the product uniformly. I agree that what these home chemists make can have the desired effect or can kill the recipient because of inaccuracy in dosage.

What I am trying to say is that just because one of the components of GHB is a solvent, does not make the final product a cleaning solvent.  The chemical reactions rearrange the compounds into different compounds. These new compounds have different properties and functions from the original compounds (substrates).

I think it is erroneous and misleading to call GHB a cleaning fluid.

I appreciate you sending me the article/study. I have not read that article and I probably won't, although I have a BS in Chemistry.  The breakdown products of GHB in the body and the effect they have on the body are more important than discussing how GHB is made, imo.

I do believe that Natalee was slipped GHB in her drink at CnC's.

So, if cleaning fluid was found, it didn't come from GHB in her drink?

If there was something in her drink to drive the reaction backwards, you'd end up with the original components.  However, the body utilizes & breaks down (moves the chemical reaction forward) the GHB into metabolites.  GHB is the precursor to GABA a neurotransmitter that regulates sleep, awakeness & physical activity.  GHB is a naturally occuring substance, so it will be always be present in the body making it difficult to determine if someone dies of its overdose.