Lively Case Discussion #574 1/15 - 1/17/2007

[SunFreak2]

In defense of myself:

My question is this.......if you were given GHB(cleaning fluid), and had been drinking diet coke/151 in liberal amounts and then got in the a car with three guys and vomited on the floor......only to pass out one guys lap. What would the labratory analysis show when the emesis was anaylized?[/]

but the issue is blood to cleaning fluid and cleaning fluid being almost identical to the date rape drug GHB.[/]

Twice it was written that GHB is cleaning fluid or almost identical to cleaning fluid. It is not. It is made from cleaning fluid, but that doesn't make it cleaning fluid or have the properties of cleaning fluid. In the creation of GHB a chemical reaction occurs between the acidic solvent and the base to create a new compound with different properties and different uses. In some chemical reactions, water, H2O, is produced even though there was no water in the original substrates, just hydrogen and oxygen molecules.

Anna - I have no idea why you are on my case.  I don't need to read a 109 page study to understand what I learned in basic chemistry about chemical reactions.  Yes, I'm sure the study is very interesting.  I just don't have the time nor energy to read it right now.  That does not mean that I cannot be a part of the discussion b/c I have not read it, does it? If I have to go back and read every post of every thread before I can participate in the discussion, then I would be locked out of cages and be off topic all the time.  So, I will just jump in, especially when I know about what is being discussed.

I don't know how this became personal about me just b/c I wrote that I thought that something written was misleading.  I don't believe that posts should be personal attacks on another poster.

[LilPuma]

I don't know who is right or wrong in this debate, but I do think what SunFreak is saying is that if you make GHB from a cleaning solvent, a chemical reaction will take place so that you no longer have a cleaning solvent, but GHB.  The chemical reaction is the key because if this takes place, you no longer have a cleaning solvent and it won't show up as such in forensic testing.  

Of course, she's gone to bed and I could be all wrong.  

If all the ingredients were not consumed and some of it was spilled in the car then the digestive system did not use it.  It would separate over time, even if it was mixed with some else, like paint on a shelf in the hot sun, perhaps be further broken down by cleaning it again, and then combined with the new cleaning fluid, you have almost pure cleaning solvent, no?  I can ask of a physician, but will not be able to divulge his name nor his credentials, but I am sure he is on the cutting edge of this for more reasons than one.

If they used a cleaning solvent to make GHB and spilled it in the car, it would still be cleaning solvent.  As I understand it, what's not feasible is that it would still be cleaning solvent if someone ingested it and then vomited.

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak - there is the FDA approved GHB and the home grown variety.  It's the home grown variety in which the cleaning solvent is used.

I'm not arguing that homemade GHB isn't made from a cleaning solvent.  I'm merely trying to explain that the cleaning solvent is no longer a cleaning solvent after it has undergone the chemical reaction in the production of GHB.  The chemical reaction rearranges the molecules of the original compounds into new compounds with new and different properties and usages.

[ldstlou]

Good Morning Monkeys!!
Still taking my science course lol. I am trying to catch up w/ ya all!! But wanted to wish you a bright and cheerful day...even if it is just too darned cold out there!!

[Leslie]

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
AweMainta
http://www.awemainta.com/
Aruba Today
http://www.arubatoday.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

[Leslie]

From Amigoe:
After a moderate 2006, the island goes for a growth of 6 percent in 2007
Aruba introduces herself to the international press...

ORANJESTAD – On the first day of the Caribbean Marketplace, minister Edison Briesen (MEP) of Transport and Tourism, Jorge Pesquera (Ahata) and Myrna Jansen (ATA) presented the tourism related figures of the past and coming year.  
Up till November 30th of 2006, 675.304 people visited Aruba, 6.7 percent less than the same period in 2005.  The number of nights spent were 4.923.714, an increase of 5.3 percent compared to the year before.  The occupancy increased with 5 percent to 77.3 in November.  It is still too early to speak of an inversion of the decreasing trend in the tourism, but after having started with negative figures, 2006 would end a little more positive than it looked like.  
Jansen of Aruba Tourism Authority (ATA) announced the objectives for 2007.  ATA hopes to increase the percentage of sojourn tourists with 6 percent.  She hopes to achieve this with the new (print- and TV-) advertisement campaign, with better room availability (due to renovations in several hotels, 8 percent less rooms were available in 2006, editor), and even with better service.  If she manages to achieve these 6 percents, Aruba will be back on the position of the end of 2005 and the dip of 2006 will be made up for.  
The new campaign seems to catch on well.  The music of the new TV-spot can also be downloaded from www.aruba.com/Rumba as ringtone for the mobile telephone.   This is one of the actions supported by the Aruba-campaign.  
A delegation of Sol Melia visits the island from January 24th till 26th.  The new owners of the former Bushiri hotel will then discuss their plans for the renovation and reopening of the hotel with the government.  Minister Briesen indicated that the hotel that currently has 153 rooms will grow to 400 rooms.  Sol Melia is the biggest hotel chain in Spain and owns 350 hotels in 30 countries.
With the arrival of Sol Melia, there are now three Spanish hotel groups active in Aruba (Occidental, Riu, and Sol Melia), which will have positive consequences for the opening up of the European and the Latin American market.
Jorge Pesquera of Aruba Hotel And Tourism Association (Ahata) said that the rebuilding activities of Riu are ahead of schedule and the reopening of the former Aruba Grand Hotel with about 450 rooms will be at the end December 2007.  
Minister Briesen announced that the relocation of the container harbour to Barcadera will definitely start in 2008.   The construction of the Marina Village at the location where the container harbour is currently will start in 2009.  300 to 350 Luxurious apartments and villas, a commercial area and an artificial lagoon, will be built here.  
In order to make the cruise tourism less seasonable, Briesen is considering making Aruba the pick-up harbour for the Latin American- and European market.  The airlift from several destinations must be available and affordable though.
The cruise tourism has developed to satisfaction in 2006; 314 port calls and 591.474 passengers, which is 7 percent more than in 2005.   The number of port calls has increased with 15 percent in the past decade.    
The new terminal for private planes will be occupied starting January 24th. The new building is better equipped to receive passengers and the waiting area is bigger, same as the customs- and immigration areas.  There is also a duty free shop.  
The first day of the Caribbean Marketplace was very successful.  The participants were very impressed with the well-organized event, the easiness to make contacts, and the multilingualism of the employees in the tourist sector.  Jansen said that this event is super classic PR for Aruba.   “There are 1500 experts on the island, and this is the first event of this year, where tour operators and other professionals from the world of travel can orientate on the 2007/2008 season”, said Jansen before the Wereldomroep.  The purpose of the Caribbean Marketplace is especially to make contacts and do business.  The travel professionals can then meat each other on the tourist fair in Berlin later this year, which takes place in March on the 10th and the 11th.

[Peaches]

i say give pvds any winnings in pfennigs,2 miles off shore,1 at time.you put on anita as she won't drown.CBB,Klass,Mrs Red, BT,I hope the weather is okay for you.It is okay here.Cat

It is COLD here, Cat. When I came home from work it was 34 degrees, and it has continued to drop since then. Brrrrrrrrrrrr

Tee hee... it was 18 below here this a.m. and that doesn't take into consideration the wind... said 10 mins. of bare skin would result in frost bite.... I wore a scarf and gloves!

I think about y'all back there when I read the Lincoln Journal every morning.  I remember growing up there, walking to school when it was so cold, the snot froze before your nose could run.  When diesel fuel turns to jelly in the buses, might be time to stay home and stay warm.
Good morning.    Still catching up here.

[Leslie]

Solo di Pueblo  January 16, 2007
Front page story and pictures of the tow truck driver's suicide.

[Frijole]

Peaches,  I would SOOOO love to stay home and curl up with an afghan and a book..... but new job and no accumulated days off yet... bummer.

Good to see you... hope you are feeling great!  Morning to rest of monks also... gotta go start the car and get it heated... grrrr  Good day all.

[Peaches]

My question is this.......if you were given GHB(cleaning fluid), and had been drinking diet coke/151 in liberal amounts and then got in the a car with three guys and vomited on the floor......only to pass out one guys lap. What would the labratory analysis show when the emesis was anaylized?

The FBI was specifically given the DNA evidence. Were they ever reportedly given blood evidence....NO. Reports came back NO BLOOD. OK...........

I have always wondered if maybe Natalee had been drinking something with chocolate in it earlier and that is where the chocolate came from?  If you were trying to hide something, why wouldn't you use a cleaning solution of some kind?  I am thinking she did vomit in the car and that is why Deepak was out working so hard at 3 in the morning to get the car clean.  If he had any connections at all why is it so far fetched that he may have had some type of industrial strength cleaner for his car?  The kind they use to clean up a used car and make it look like a new one.

White Russian.  Some kind of after dinner drink containing either Kahlua or Creme de cacao.

[San]

Solo di Pueblo  January 16, 2007
Front page story and pictures of the tow truck driver's suicide.

[bleachedblack]

Solo di Pueblo  January 16, 2007
Front page story and pictures of the tow truck driver's suicide.

OMG....this man killed himself in the front seat of his tow truck?

[justinsmama]

I think about y'all back there when I read the Lincoln Journal every morning.  I remember growing up there, walking to school when it was so cold, the snot froze before your nose could run.  When diesel fuel turns to jelly in the buses, might be time to stay home and stay warm. Good morning. Still catching up here.

Winters during ALL of my school years in central Indiana were much, much worse than they have been the last several years, and I recall the Frozen Snot Syndrome as well. It's an odd sensation.

Good morning, monkeys!

[MsVada]

I don't believe that one for a second!

[justinsmama]

Solo di Pueblo  January 16, 2007
Front page story and pictures of the tow truck driver's suicide.

OMG....this man killed himself in the front seat of his tow truck?

And he did not even have the courtesy to bury himself.

[justinsmama]

I don't believe that one for a second!

The frozen snot or that it was suicide?

[bleachedblack]

My question is this.......if you were given GHB(cleaning fluid), and had been drinking diet coke/151 in liberal amounts and then got in the a car with three guys and vomited on the floor......only to pass out one guys lap. What would the labratory analysis show when the emesis was anaylized?

The FBI was specifically given the DNA evidence. Were they ever reportedly given blood evidence....NO. Reports came back NO BLOOD. OK...........

I have always wondered if maybe Natalee had been drinking something with chocolate in it earlier and that is where the chocolate came from?  If you were trying to hide something, why wouldn't you use a cleaning solution of some kind?  I am thinking she did vomit in the car and that is why Deepak was out working so hard at 3 in the morning to get the car clean.  If he had any connections at all why is it so far fetched that he may have had some type of industrial strength cleaner for his car?  The kind they use to clean up a used car and make it look like a new one.

White Russian.  Some kind of after dinner drink containing either Kahlua or Creme de cacao.

In my post I did write: ".....if you were given GHB(cleaning fluid)" , but I had explained in another post GBL=cleaning fluid. I just meant in referencing it following the "GHB" above that would be the possible source of a positive test result for cleaning fluid.......not that GHB was cleaning fluid.

Morning Monkeys.....not staying , doin' a driveby

[bleachedblack]

I don't believe that one for a second!

The frozen snot or that it was suicide?

What is a frozen snot?

[MsVada]

I don't believe that one for a second!

The frozen snot or that it was suicide?

The suicide....  Its so cold outside here, I am sure the kids at the bus stop had frozen snot.  lol

[bleachedblack]

HAHA , I read frozen shot and suicide and got confused.......not enough caffiene yet LOL