Natalee Case Discussion #832 4/22/10 - 6/2/10

[Tamikosmom]

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman - March 20 2008:  My intentions here at this forum weren't to just spew out all that I know. My intentions were to get a few trusted close people informed, armed, and organized. Then, once organized get a hold of Beth and present things in a controlled private and safe manner. THEN come up with a plan to procede that is well thought-out.

"she" means Beth, and "earlier problem with the FBI" was regarding Dec 29 images he sent to them from the ship.

Kyle Kingman - March 20 2008:  Since I got the go ahead from Tim, we can legally move forward. The document should follow-up the screen shots and trap content description. We can sent the document after the initial dialog. I trust then she will be interested in the document.

The contents of the document should be discussed and agreed upon by the birds. Since I'm new here, I should take a back seat to this IMO. I would think it would be a case synthesis which culminates with the trap contents and lack of interest and motivation to fully process the site. Perhaps Beth will then use the document to create the proper motivation using the information to apply political pressure from both sides. The problem I ran into earlier with the FBI was that their hands are tied to do anything unless they're invited to the party. I think political pressure properly applied will ensure an invite to the party. Thoughts?

Title - perhaps "Case Synthesis and Search Results", or something to that effect.

jen3560 - Scared Monkeys

[Tamikosmom]

Casa
Re: To Scared Monkeys...
« Reply #403 on: May 02, 2010, 09:08:49 PM »

Janet,

.... We were banned from SM with no respect because we supported Natalee's family and not Kermit!

By the way, Janet, we have our reasons for NOT believing Kermit.  We just did not pluck it out of the air. ...

http://goldmonkey.org/

______


Casa

For me ... Kermit was the messenger ... not the focus.  Kyle Kingman's own words were where it was at.  Either Kyle was lying or he was revealing the truth regarding the John Silvetti betrayal of Natalee Holloway and her family.

You chose not to believe Kyle Kingman.  What has that got to do with Kermit.

Casa and Mum ... do you really believe that I would be keeping on with my Persistence mission and what I perceive as related distractions from the cage/trap without credible encouragement?

Janet

++++++


casa
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09
« Reply #450 on: January 17, 2009, 03:25:36 AM »

My main problem with Kyle is that I think he enjoyed the attention he got from posting on the forums.  I think he was willing to post whatever made him seem important.  That is why I have a problem with what he posted.  I'm not so sure that any of it is factual.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4371.msg630801#msg630801


casa
Re: Monkey Musings Daily Open Discussion #14 2/2 -
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »

.... I have not doubted the quotes that are attributed to Kyle and I remember reading much of that when he orginally posted some here. ....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4475.msg657748#msg657748

(Edit-fix typo per Janet.  MB)

[Tamikosmom]

SELF-EDIT

pertrayal of Natalee s/b betrayal of Natalee





Fixed typo.  MB

[Tamikosmom]

Thanks Muffybee.

Janet

[wreck]

Anymore Kalpoes VS Dr. Phil updates??

[Tamikosmom]

There was a short period in time when SS was a believer in Kyle Kingman's own words in regards to a John Silvetti betrayal to Natalee Holloway and her family?  She had it figured out perfectly.

She went from unwavering support of CAPS and ... challenging anyone who dared question the actions or the motives of the Persistence endeavor ... to a full comprehension that CAPS was placed on the SM forum to distract from the happenings encompassing the trap/cage.

However ... inquiring minds do want to know what/who persuaded SS to backtracked from her new found awareness and return to her orginal position of support in regards to CAPS and John Silvetti.  Why did SS not share her motivation with the SM forum?

Janet

+++++++++


SS - NOVEMBER/DECEMBER, 2008

SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
on: November 17, 2008, 08:32:15 PM  

Monkeys - Kyle said that he discovered the trap on the screen very early Christmas morning.  That's when Tim said  "it looks like a skull".  The contents of the trap were cleaned on January 7th.  Persistence continued to use side scan sonor to map the ocean floor well into February.  Now how could they justify all of those extra weeks of searching for a missing American woman if they had already found her in the beginning of January?  They also needed to get our focus off of Persistence and the ocean search.  Viola!  Caps enters the picture to tell us about Manserat Pond.  The picture of the cage was never supposed to be released and I'm sure that caused big trouble.  All of the evidence disappeared.  The fabric sent to Quantico wasn't Natalee's blouse.  There wasn't anything else in the cage - it was just a coconut or a piece of coral.  Back to the ocean search for Peristence so that they could continue with the grids and their non profit search.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546635#msg546635


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2008, 02:08:35 AM »

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.

2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.

3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.

4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.

5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.

6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg565794;topicseen#msg565794


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2008, 11:53:15 PM »

Jossy and John are friends.  John went to Aruba in March to attend a Mansur wedding.

Has anyone thought about the possibility that the Mansurs own the mineral rights on the ocean floor?  They own 80% of the island.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they own the mineral rights under the ocean shelf.  Translated that means whoever owns the mineral rights makes money off of every barrel of oil that is brought to the surface and John Silvetti had just finished the geological survey to determine where to place the off shore wells.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.msg546590#msg546590


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
« Reply #322 on: November 18, 2008, 12:22:13 AM »

Oil in that area of the Carribbean is touchy because of Chavez.  He owns everything.  The US needs allys with oil.  Is that why they have been easy on Aruba?  They didn't want the world to know that they planning off shore exploration and drilling.  Another factor was probably money.  Geological exploration is expensive.  Silvetti's company was just about bankrupt.  Wouldn't it be nice to have all of those mapping expenses written off because it was done for the purpose of searching for the body of a missing American woman.  Their survey was done for a nonprofit organization.  How magnanimous.  Crappy Island will be a boom town if they drill for oil and find it and the Mansurs will greatly increase their fortune.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4129.320


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #726 on: December 06, 2008, 04:23:52 PM »

I agree with you, Janet.  I thought a lot about it last night, after I finally had to turn my computer off and just think.  In his heart, I'm sure that Tim Miller believed what he had seen or he wouldn't have said, Bull$hit with the thumbs down.  However, he had no control over all of that pphotographic equipment and perhaps he was only being shown what they wanted him to see.  There was a very good reason why they had to get him off of Persistence before January 7th.  I don't think that Dave or Tim would have gone to Nicaragua if they didn't think it was a viable lead.  I wonder if ALE are the ones who set it all up as another one of their infamous diversion tactics

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569218#msg569218


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #697 on: December 06, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »

Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569178#msg569178


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #702 on: December 06, 2008, 03:41:17 PM »

Tim became a liability because her had the film footage from the 29th and the 30th.  He knew what was in the cage.  Just from the original Photographs on the 29th, we can clearly see a skull and a shoe.  I think Tim probably became a source of contention and was distracted away from the ship so the contents could be turned over to ALE.  Tim has to have figured out what happened.  I wonder if it's difficult for him to look at Beth and Dave in their eyes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569184#msg569184


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #678 on: December 06, 2008, 01:52:46 PM »

I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg569137#msg569137
__________


Dialogue - SS and Tamikosmom:


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #755 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:44 PM »

I have some feelings about the photographs and I wonder if others feel the same way that I do.  If Louis, John, and Kyle had hidden those photographs from ALE so that they could be turned over to Beth, Dave, and US authorities, it would have been a dishonest action, but it would have been in the best interests of everyone.  ALE has been so despicable from day one, and under handed handling of evidence would have been a double standard, but I would have supported it and jumped up and down with cheers.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.  The evidence was hidden from Beth, Dave, and the American public and the photographs were never even given to the FBI by members of the Persistence group.  When I hear that there is even a remote possibility that Louis Schafer sold those photographs for big bucks and that Kyle attempted to sell the photographs to networks last February, I just want to scream.  These actions are beyond explanation or justification.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556201#msg556201
 

Tamikosmom
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #774 on: November 24, 2008, 10:39:01 PM »

I wish Kyle would respond to these allegations.

Thanks SS.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556243#msg556243


SS
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #778 11/23/08 -
« Reply #784 on: November 24, 2008, 10:46:48 PM »

Dinners over... I ate my crow and it didn't very good at all.  I am so sorry for going at you.  I was so convinced that everything and everyone involved with Perisistence were above reproach.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.msg556257;topicseen#msg556257

[texasmom]

 

[texasmom]

texasmom, lexie and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

[Tamikosmom]

private eye
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #735 2/24 -
« Reply #830 on: February 27, 2008, 04:37:16 PM »

The truest posts I have made on this site, posts not made out of anger, resentment, or frustrations are the ones when I have stated that to me Joran seems to be begging for help, pleading to be allowed to confess, only to have his pleas ignored by his parents and his confessions recanted by them.That I think the most inhumane treatment I have seen done by parents is the fact that Anita and Paulus keep this charade up for their own personal needs, irregardless of the needs of Joran. There are worse fates than going to jail. In jail Joran could easily meet a man of the Lord and reconnect himself. In jail Joran could be assured of having a second chance. The court of public opinion is much harsher, and does not grant second chances. Plus we have already seen him applying to join the mob while he is out a free man, and goodness knows where that would have led. And you know, if he admitted, truthfully, accepted his punishment, I know Beth and her Mom pretty well, and it is not inconceivable that they could come to forgive him, but right now their only course of action is to keep the glare of public opinion focused on him, as they want answers. And to tell you the truth, if public opinion can break Joran, and get the answers, then maybe he will be weak enough to turn towards the Lord and be saved. They certainly don't think Joran isn't worthy of the love of the Lord or that Joran isn't a child of the Lord. But they don't feel that Joran is currently looking to the Lord for answers.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2641.msg356333;topicseen#msg356333

[texasmom]

http://curacao.usconsulate.gov/uploads/images/nXyIwfyZCXXtdMpu8FGccA/WEEKLY_News.pdf

News Items and Public Crime Summary for Week Ending May 8, 2010

Bonaire – Dutch Police Bust Cocaine Smuggling Ring
Dutch police have detained 20 people for smuggling cocaine in containers for in-flight meals and waste on planes flying between the Netherlands Antilles and the Netherlands, police said last week.
"Twenty suspects have been arrested during the last four months in the Netherlands and Bonaire," a Dutch airport spokesman said.
Eleven of the 20 suspects worked for an Amsterdam Schiphol Airport-based company catering for airlines.
Investigators found that the cocaine was hidden in food and waste containers on Netherlands-bound planes.
Police seized more than 50 kilograms (110 pounds) of cocaine, with a street value of two million Euros (US $2.6 million), and tens of thousands of Euros in cash during 11 searches in the Netherlands. Twelve of the suspects are Dutch nationals, aged 25 to 49, the spokesman said but did not give details. (Caribbean Net News)

Aruba – Prosecutor Demands Four Years in Valero Fraud Case
Two men who were arrested in a US-owned Valero refinery fraud case last September appeared in court last week. The Public Prosecutor has demanded four years imprisonment for a Valero employee and a contractor who allegedly embezzled approximately US $3 million between February 2007 and July 2009. (Daily Herald)

Aruba – Customs Confiscates 125 Kilos of Narcotics at Barcadera
Aruba Customs officials confiscated 125 kilos of narcotics, hidden in vegetables crates, at Barcadera Harbor, yesterday. Three arrests were made. (Diario)

Aruba - Cayman Islands and Aruba Sign Tax Information Exchange
Agreement (TIEA)
Aruba has signed a Tax Information Exchange Agreement (TIEA) with the Cayman Islands. The agreement, exchanged via courier, was considered legally binding following signature on 20 April 2010 by Cayman Islands Premier McKeeva Bush in his capacity as Minister of Finance and on 9 April 2010 by Mike de Meza, Aruba’s Minister of Finance, Communication, Utilities and Energy. The Cayman Islands signed TIEAs with the Netherlands on 8 July 2009 and with the Netherlands Antilles on 29 October 2009. (Caribbean Net News)

snip

Aruba – Valero Energy Continues to Seek Buyer for Aruba Plant
Leading independent U.S. refiner Valero Energy Corp. Chief Executive Bill Klesse said discussions are continuing with potential buyers of the idled 235,000 barrel-per-day (bpd) US-owned Aruba refinery, at the company's annual meeting last Thursday. Valero is also weighing restarting production at the refinery or forming a joint venture to operate the plant, Klesse said. Valero committed to keep the refinery's staff on payroll through June 1; it idled the plant due to poor refining margins. Aruba's government is expected to submit an agreement worked out with Valero to settle a tax dispute to the nation's parliament soon, Klesse said. The agreement is expected to make it easier to sell the refinery or resume production, he has said. (Various media)

snip

Aruba – PM Mike Eman to Attend Inauguration Costa Rican President
Aruba PM Mike Eman will travel to Costa Rica to attend the May 8, inauguration ceremonies for new Costa Rican President-elect Laura Chinchilla. (Diario)

Region – Successful Counterdrug Exercise ‘Carib Venture’
Several maritime and aerial units from the Netherlands, U.S., Dominica, and Trinidad & Tobago successfully participated in the counterdrug exercise ‘Carib Venture’. Various suspect vessels were searched and one narcotics transport was disrupted by a cooperative effort of Dutch Frigate Van Speijk, USCGC Valiant, a Dutch helicopter, and a NA&A Coastguard Dash 8 patrol aircraft. The crew of the ‘go fast’ was arrested and handed over to Dominican authorities. (Various media)

Antilles – Narcotics Seized, Arrests Made on St. Maarten
Netherlands Antilles law enforcement authorities have arrested five men Wednesday after an intense narcotics investigation that spanned at least seven islands and countries in the region. Authorities apprehended a 6th person yesterday, according to a statement from prosecutors. Several agencies from the Netherlands Antilles, U.S., South America and other countries contributed to the arrests. Two businessmen were arrested in Philipsburg and Simpson Bay. Investigations reached as far as Colombia, Venezuela, Dominica, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. Also, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and the Dutch Royal Marechaussee were involved. The Police Arrest Team caught one suspect with a loaded firearm in St. Maarten and 179 kilograms of cocaine were seized from one suspect’s house. (Daily Herald)

snip

Aruba – Icahn Enterprises LP Acquires The Aruban Resort
U.S. citizen Carl Icahn, through ICAHN Enterprises LP, acquired the Aruban Resort for US $20 million at an auction yesterday. Mr. Icahn is a shrewd and successful businessman with experience in various industries including hotels and gaming. ICAHN Enterprises LP has reportedly expressed a commitment to immediately begin investing millions of dollars into the villas, resort infrastructure, and the new casino. (Various media)

CURAÇAO
Crime April 29 – May 6
On April 29 a woman was beaten by her former husband in Rio Canario. The irate man also fired a random shot with a handgun. No injuries were reported. On May 2 a vehicle occupant fired several shots near Julian. There were no injuries (Extra).

New National Guard duties to be formalized
Parliament’s Central Committee will discuss an amendment to the ordinance regulating the National Guards of Curaçao, St. Maarten, Bonaire and St. Eustatius. The amendment serves to formalize duties already carried out by the various National Guards, namely to assist law enforcement agencies in maintaining public order and to provide additional manpower in times of natural or man-made disasters (Daily Herald).

ARUBA
Crime April 29 – May 6
On May 2 a Chinese minimarket in Primavera was robbed by two masked men. The same evening, a Pizza Hut restaurant in Sasaki was robbed by three men. The following day a man was stabbed and killed during an altercation in Sabana Basora. On May 4 a British tourist couple was robbed by four vehicle occupants near Havana Beach Club (Bon Dia Aruba).

ST. MAARTEN
Crime April 29 – May 6
On May 5 two women were robbed in the parking lot of the Tamarind Hotel in Pointe Blanche (Daily Herald).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“The Weekly Press Summary is a compilation of stories running in the Netherlands Antilles and Aruban press that is intended to alert readers about items of interest to them. There is no interpretation or verification of the facts contained therein."

[klaasend]

In the K2 vs Dr. Phil case, there are a couple of Minute Order docs.  I'll be posting as soon as I get them ready.  They will be posted in within the next 30 min.

[texasmom]

In the K2 vs Dr. Phil case, there are a couple of Minute Order docs.  I'll be posting as soon as I get them ready.  They will be posted in within the next 30 min.

Thanks Klaas!   

[klaasend]

In the K2 vs Dr. Phil case, there are a couple of Minute Order docs.  I'll be posting as soon as I get them ready.  They will be posted in within the next 30 min.

The first minute order was about all parties missing the 5/6/2010 hearing date.

The second minute order is to explain that the 5/6/2010 date was a clerical error and then it goes on to set the future dates:

[Anna]

Oh, no!  So now we have nothing scheduled in the Kalpoes  case until January and February of 2011?

That is disappointing as it is about the only news we had going.  Well, I am still hoping and praying for a miracle as I do believe that is what it is going to take to move things forward toward justice for Natalee.  Fortunately, I do believe in miracles.

[Lifesong]

Casa
Re: To Scared Monkeys...
« Reply #403 on: May 02, 2010, 09:08:49 PM »

Janet,
.... We were banned from SM with no respect because we supported Natalee's family and not Kermit!
By the way, Janet, we have our reasons for NOT believing Kermit.  We just did not pluck it out of the air. ...
http://goldmonkey.org/
______

Casa

For me ... Kermit was the messenger ... not the focus.  Kyle Kingman's own words were where it was at.  Either Kyle was lying or he was revealing the truth regarding the John Silvetti betrayal of Natalee Holloway and her family.

You chose not to believe Kyle Kingman.  What has that got to do with Kermit.

Casa and Mum ... do you really believe that I would be keeping on with my Persistence mission and what I perceive as related distractions from the cage/trap without credible encouragement?

Janet

++++++


casa
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09
« Reply #450 on: January 17, 2009, 03:25:36 AM »

My main problem with Kyle is that I think he enjoyed the attention he got from posting on the forums.  I think he was willing to post whatever made him seem important.  That is why I have a problem with what he posted.  I'm not so sure that any of it is factual.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4371.msg630801#msg630801


casa
Re: Monkey Musings Daily Open Discussion #14 2/2 -
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »

.... I have not doubted the quotes that are attributed to Kyle and I remember reading much of that when he orginally posted some here. ....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4475.msg657748#msg657748

(Edit-fix typo per Janet.  MB)

You know, some of what Casa says, I completely agree with.  Kyle is a donkey's butt.  Kyle strutted and postured and tried to make himself look more important than he was.  Got it.  That doesn't take a rocket scientist (or an oceanographer) to deduce.

The thing is...after the side scan sonar of the pond (the results of which have been posted here on SM - we've seen them and read the analysis) John Silvetti still worked with Caps to try to get the pond drained and searched.  Silvetti was the one that, as far as we know, stopped answering to Dave Holloway or even informing him of the progress of the ocean search.  Silvetti is the one responsible for the fact that there were no more dives after January 5th.  Gee, I wonder why?

From what I can tell, Kermit is the only one that had the good sense to do the hard work and find out who all was posting as Caps.  So, did they draw straws to decide who got to meet with Silvetti in person?  Wth?

Why didn't Silvetti do that research before deciding Caps was credible?  Silvetti volunteered for the job of searching the ocean for Natalee.  Within a week, iirc, of beginning that search they found exactly - exactly! - what they were looking for.

And nobody on that boat stood up for Natalee.  Well, I guess Tim Miller may have and it got him thrown off the boat.  We really don't know any more than that, because no one else will talk about it.

But at the end of the day - Kermit was right. 

Caps was a liar. 

Caps was 4 people laughing their asses off at all of you who were defending them and writing to Natalee's family about the terrible things happening at SM. 

While you were defending them.  The four of them. 
Friends and relatives of the boys that drove away from Carlos & Charlies with Natalee in the backseat of their car.

[texasmom]

Oh, no!  So now we have nothing scheduled in the Kalpoes  case until January and February of 2011?

That is disappointing as it is about the only news we had going.  Well, I am still hoping and praying for a miracle as I do believe that is what it is going to take to move things forward toward justice for Natalee.  Fortunately, I do believe in miracles.

Me too Anna!   

Good to see you!   

Look on the bright side...Klaas will have more time to perfect her streaming video capabilities!   

 

[texasmom]

THANKS KLASS, for bringing the documents over!   

[Lifesong]

Thank you for the court docs, Klaas!  And thanks to the generous monkey providing us access to them.  Always grateful!

Anna - good to see you! 

Texasmom - as always, thanks for the news.  It cracks me up to see "1 hora pasa".  I always think...only one?

 

Justice for Natalee Holloway just got one day closer!


Kalpoe brothers are big sorry losers who are afraid to show their ugly faces in court!

Joran van der Sloot will kill again if he isn't brought to justice!

Aruba is a drug-infested, alarming island well-suited for your vacation suicide dreams!

And we are not going away!

 

[Anna]

As always, thank you Klaas, for posting the latest court information. 

[texasmom]

Casa also doesn't hesitate to lie...she should be ashamed to even mention Natalee's family in the same sentence as to why they were all banned from here!

Thing is...she's not.

Considering all the trash talking they've done about this forum before and since they've been banned from here, why they are even being acknowledged is beyond me!  Does anyone see any REAL conversation going on over there about ANYTHING?  I suspect that the conversations go on off of the open forum and the only posts that are put where any of us can read are BAIT.  They don't deserve a response.

JMHO