Natalee Case Discussion #832 4/22/10 - 6/2/10

[Tamikosmom]

In the K2 vs Dr. Phil case, there are a couple of Minute Order docs.  I'll be posting as soon as I get them ready.  They will be posted in within the next 30 min.

The first minute order was about all parties missing the 5/6/2010 hearing date.

The second minute order is to explain that the 5/6/2010 date was a clerical error and then it goes on to set the future dates:

Thanks Klaas.

Three years later?

 

I just do not understand why this lawsuit is dragging on.

Janet

[Anna]

Exactly, Jen,

It was Kyle Kingman who was doing all the talking, not Kermit.

Now that said, it is up to each of us as to how believable we find YOUNG Kyle Kingman to be and how much credit we place in his very short years of experience.

It did appear that there could well be human remians in the cage but I personally have never been convinced one way or the other as to whether or not they were Natalee's.  I simply do not know based on the information available and also because Aurba was solely in charge of the contents given their history.

It would be nice to be able to post without having an attempt  to discredit my opinions even though not very popular on this forum as well.  There was a time we all posted very varied points of view without the expectation of invalidation including three or four pages of archives as I am as aware of those as the next person.

Kermit was the messenger but it was the very young and inexperienced Kyle Kingman who did all the talking.  And while Beth did say it was OK to share all that, she did stop short of any claim to believe those remains (or not) in the trap were Natalee.  I don't see how she could know either.  IMO, no one can without access to them other than conjecture.

There is still more we don't know than we do because this was a concealed crime from the start.

[Lifesong]

Yep...
And nobody on that boat stood up for Natalee.  Well, I guess Tim Miller may have and it got him thrown off the boat.  We really don't know any more than that, because no one else will talk about it.
Nobody stood up then...and nobody has come forward to date...
Natalee deserves better......

 

However ... credit where credit is due ... Kyle Kingman did attempt to make a stand for Natalee and her family when he challenged John Silvetti, Hans Mos and Dolph Richards in regards to the handling of the trap and its contents.

Janet

Wwwweeeeelllllll.....according to Kyle he was "the hero" that stood up to Hans Mos and Dolph Richardson. 

It is these types of self-aggrandizing statements from Kyle that I personally don't put as much stock in.  Kyle did have a boss on that ship inbetween he and Silvetti.  Funny how he never mentions that, isn't it.

Just sayin'.

 

[Magnolia]

I think the GMs are baiting and some here are taking the bait.

As I recall, most of them were banned, not because they didn't agree with Kermit, but because they
would run over to GM and post terribably negative things about Klaas, Red and others here at SM.
That was stupidity on their part.

We all know what we believe by now, but most of us are not satisfied with the outcome as it stands.
I wait for the next news or for Joran to open his big mouth again, which I am sure he will do.
I can only hope that someday somebody will tell all that they know.

If the people that post at GM know so much more than we know, why on earth don't they share it?
especially if it would help to bring justice for Natalee.

[Tamikosmom]

It appears that up to some point in time Kyle Kingman sincerely desired to do the right thing in regards to the troubling happenings he observed while on board the Persistence encompassing the trap and its contents.  His motivation for backtracking ... only Kyle knows.

Speculation:

1.  Threatening lawsuit by Silvetti/Schaefer
2.  Future career opportunities at risk.
3.  Potential windfall from Networks.

Janet

++++

jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #793 1/13/09
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »

I do truly believe that Kyle found himself between a rock and a hard place - and wanted to do the right thing.

I think it was May or June that Kyle went to Louisiana to see Silvetti - and wound up finding himself in between a bigger rock and a hard place after that meeting.  Kyle came back from Louisiana and began dodging questions and essentially making himself scarce.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4371.msg626144#msg626144

[texasmom]

Klaas - thank you for the court status updates.  And a big thank you to our anony Monkey for allowing us that access. 

From me too!   

It's always good to see you jen, and even though you may not have much time to be here right now...I know you're never far away, and really appreciate your encouragement and support. 

[texasmom]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_72314.php

Google translation:

Correction
May 11, 2010, 13:09 (GMT -04:00)

Email this article   
Print this article 

ORANGE CITY - In the article "Eighteen years in prison for murder of Dorothy Hassell" in its edition last Friday reported Amigoe the name of the convicted offender. This name was misspelled. In the subsequent article 'Perhaps Appeals Case Hassell "newspaper reported that only the last initial of the offender. It is the 36-year-old Sheik Mohamed Ally Hydaralie, from British Guiana.

 

[jen3560]

Hi Anna!

Yes, I think we have all needed to develop a thick skin over these past 5 years across these forums.   Sad, but it also goes to show what an individual will put up with in the fight for Justice.

Every person on the face of this earth has the right to their own opinion, and the right to express it.  I guess doing so under the fear of that opinion being attacked has also served to strenghten our character.

[jen3560]

Klaas - thank you for the court status updates.  And a big thank you to our anony Monkey for allowing us that access. 

From me too!   

It's always good to see you jen, and even though you may not have much time to be here right now...I know you're never far away, and really appreciate your encouragement and support. 

Nope - never far away!  Just so busy in my personal life that I can barely see straight anymore, LOL. 
Those articles you post have already helped us in deciphering some who's and what's....and I look forward to reading them every day in hopes that someday, somehow, more information will slip inadvertantly that could be immensely helpful.

[Tamikosmom]

When you consider the reputation of John Silvetti and the credibility of the Persistence endeavor were in the balance .... I cannot comprehend Beth Holloway affording the Natalee's Freebirds permission to release Kyle Kingman's posts if she did not believe with all her heart that the words within those posts revealed the truth.

IMO

Janet

+++++

klassend
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #411 on: December 30, 2008, 06:53:44 PM »

Sent to me by Natalee's Freebirds:

<snipped>

Approximately May 2008 Kyle began dodging questions for details (we had asked for names of Aruban police and divers to be included in our documentation of these events), hedging on moving forward with this, and then he completely disappeared from our board.
 
During that time, we learned Kyle had never contacted Beth, or Dave, or the FBI with this information.
 
We put our original plan into motion - that of presenting this information in a clear and concise manner, and we sent it to Beth Holloway.
 
Beth was disturbed, needed time to digest the information, and wanted to share it with someone she trusts.
 
When Tim Miller was returning to Aruba this past fall, Beth gave us permission to release this information publicly. At that point, we gave it to John Kelly, Carmen Adams with the FBI, and got it ready for public consumption.

<snipped>

At this point, one of our members decided to brace for the possibility of civil litigation, resigned from our membership to protect it from same, and posted what he knows to be factual at SM.

Nothing that was posted at SM by kermit was incorrect, out of context, or in any way false.
 
Regards,
 
Former Natalee's Freebirds Administrator

Natalee and her family deserve justice - and we will not let up until they have it!

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603349#msg603349


jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #486 on: December 30, 2008, 08:37:05 PM »

<snipped>

Kermit did the right thing by making this information public at Beth Holloway's request (albeit 2 months after she asked us to do so thanks to the need to avoid litigation).

<snipped>

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg603594;topicseen#msg603594

[Tamikosmom]

Ree and Jen said it best in the following dialogue.  It makes perfect sense if Beth Holloway objected to the 1 1/2 year discussion regarding a perceived Persistence betrayal encompassing the trap and it's contents ... she could have put a stop to it with one phone call to Red.

Janet

++++++

Ree
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #927 on: December 31, 2008, 08:25:46 AM »

I'm just a lurker here most of the time and I don't know anybody.  I do however, notice that the same 3 or 4 posters show up at the same time to bash Kermie and/or defend Kyle or Caps.  Kyle and Caps are big boys who can take up for themselves, if they feel the need.  As far as Kermie, cutting and pasting and sharing emails, maybe if some of these people had been willing to share with everybody, none of this would have been necessary.  If what was going on was dangerous to the investigation, all the truly vested parties know how to contact Red and tell us to shut up.  Personally, I'm rather tired of the distraction created everytime these few show up to disrupt.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg604840#msg604840


jen3560
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #787 12/24/08 -
« Reply #929 on: December 31, 2008, 12:29:58 PM »

Very good points, Ree.

Not only do the vested parties know how to contact Red - they also know how to contact Freebirds.

No one EVER told Freebirds to not publish the images and Kyle's concerns and facts about that trap and its contents.

Quite the contrary, in fact.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4269.msg604845#msg604845

[Tamikosmom]

Tamikosmom, wreck, Magnolia and 25 Guests are viewing this board.

[wreck]

I care not one iota what they think or do at GM. I know what I know and what I believe. Do I think Natalee was in that trap -- yes. Can I prove it -- no. I certainly understand Anna's point though and she could very well be correct. I will say that if the remains are not Natalee's -- they belong to SOMEONE that is somehow related to the case. Why else would they not reveal the contents???? -JMO

[Anna]

Hi Anna!

Yes, I think we have all needed to develop a thick skin over these past 5 years across these forums.   Sad, but it also goes to show what an individual will put up with in the fight for Justice.

Every person on the face of this earth has the right to their own opinion, and the right to express it.  I guess doing so under the fear of that opinion being attacked has also served to strenghten our character.

Heh, heh, my character must be approaching granite about now as i still don't believe for one minute that Lorenzo van Rijn is Joran's secret, illegitimate half-brother and do note Beth does not even mention him in her book.  She does even the van Loon character but not Lorenzo and there must be a reason for that.

Also, given Beth's open and thruthful nature, I can't imagine her trying to suppress any information or anything said but that is a far cry from endorsing what they might say.  Don't think she reads forums much, either.  As for who might have been in the trap, if anybody and not Natalee--well, I have seen so many bodies wash up on shore, etc. and they don't ever seem too concerned with them.  If the person is local and known, they are identified but if they are thought to be an illegal immigrant or something of that nature, I haven't ever seen much effort to identify them.  The trap could have been pushed off any fishing boat passing through Aruban waters for that matter.  The man who said he had a trap stolen eventually even recanted on that.

So who knows?  Mostly no one for a fact.  At least, no one on this side of things.

But yes, we do all want justice for Natalee and that's all that counts in the end.  I fully understand how others come to hold their beliefs and try very hard to be respectful of those even if I don't share them.

The best thing to happen that I can think of is for Joran to grow a little chracter himself and finally tell the verifiable truth.  Short of that, it would take major new evidence.  Or that miracle I keep believing we will get some day.

Edit to fix quote

[Anna]

And after all these years, I can still mess up a quote just as badly as I did the first time I postd, lol.

Sorry about that Jen but I guess folks can figure that out.



  Fixed

[texasmom]

I'm having issues with the translator at the moment.  But it looks like Eric Zaandam has had a stroke.

http://www.24ora.com/local-mainmenu-5/17611-ex-presidente-di-spa-a-haya-stroke-na-trabou.html



Ex-Presidente di SPA a haya stroke na trabou      

Tuesday, 11 May 2010 11:42
 

E ex-presidente di Sindicato di Polis, esta inspector Eric Zaandam a haya un stroke na trabou. Publico para wardando rijbewijs na e oficina bieuw di warda di Polis na Santa Cruz a conta cu diripiente ela bira malo y cu ambulance a transporte cu urgencia pa hospitaal. Pronto recuperacion na Eric Zaandam.

[klaasend]

TM  - I was just going to post the same article and I was having problems with the translator too. 

Something at awe24 too:

AGENTE POLICIAL ERIC ZANDAAM A BIRA MALO NA BUREAU DI RIJBEWIJS NA SANTA CRUZ, ELA SER HIBA CU URGENCIA DEN AMBULANS

http://www.awe24.com/?main&id=3392&offId=0&offDate=2010-5

[Tamikosmom]

Using Kyle Kingman's own words as a foundation ... the Persistence did not discover the trap/cage by accident ... the ship was directed to the location.

IMO

Janet

++++++

The Detective - The Brother

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:[/b]  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.

Kyle Kingman:  The detective¢s brother gave what he thought were coordinates, but turned out to be a line of latitude. This latitude aligned with Arashi beach and came within a half mile of the fish trap.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  IF a keydetective's brother knew the latitude the trap was disposed at or very near, then it's probable the detective knew the same.

Kyle Kingman:  Since the trap was only in 90ft of water and the detective knew about the latitude, did the Polis already know if it's location prior to the search?

Kyle Kingman:  The implications of this are tremendous. If true, it means that the early investigators knew where and how Natalee was disposed and it was kept secret and covered up.


December 25, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning. I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents.

Kyle Kingman: I know Tim (Miller) believed me and was convinced 100% which is why he went and told Dave (Holloway) that we found Natalee on Dec 29th. John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis to arrange the next dive -Dec 30th's which was the visual-only dive.


December 30, 2007

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, (Dolph) Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  (Dolph) Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.
 
Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.


January 7, 2008

Kyle Kingman - In His Own Words

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman: They (divers) were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt. It's not a lot of denim folded in the bag, but then again her skirt was rather small.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

[texasmom]

TM  - I was just going to post the same article and I was having problems with the translator too. 

Something at awe24 too:

AGENTE POLICIAL ERIC ZANDAAM A BIRA MALO NA BUREAU DI RIJBEWIJS NA SANTA CRUZ, ELA SER HIBA CU URGENCIA DEN AMBULANS

http://www.awe24.com/?main&id=3392&offId=0&offDate=2010-5

Thanks Klaas!   

I'm relieved to know I wasn't the only one having issues with the translator too.   

[Tamikosmom]

Is this really necessary?

billb

Don't worry.  I don't anymore.  I just stay the course.  It is all about not letting other forget about the self-serving  injustices committed against a beautiful young lady named Natalee Holloway.

Thanks for caring.

 

I hope all is well with you and yours.

Janet