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Author Topic: Obama's quiet years in N.Y.C.  (Read 20940 times)
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nonesuche
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2007, 01:31:27 AM »

Louise-

I think you are missing the point regarding the white girlfriend by taking it out of context within his own quote, that she was a casualty of his 'internal' struggle with his own racism.

My concern is that he's certainly not mainstream as he he hopes many will perceive him to be, and he seems to continue to have a struggle with rascism as evidenced in some of his speeches.

pdh3-

I am not basing my contention that Barack is muslim upon his upbringing or heritage, but on information that others within his own party have been gathering and validating. He only declared he was 'exploring' running for President last week, until he officially declares I don't think any of this information will emerge publicly. If validated information proves Barack has underground ties to any measure of radical religion I will oppose him however possible. I do think he has radical tendencies and I think a radical of any form, such as a radical christian fundamentalist, would be an ominous choice for the role of president.
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2007, 09:12:50 AM »

[quote="mrs. redoff,
 
 
Yes, it takes courage to get clean but why is it so wonderful that Obama did that ... and yet Bush is condemned?  sorry y'all it's the same either way IMO...[/quote]

That is an excellent point Mrs.

I rarely talk politics on this forum, in fact it is probably the 1st time I have posted on this thread.  All I know about this politician are the same things you all know, from what is in the news...

He may very well be a great person with young fresh ideas and best intentions.

But I would be fooling myself if I did not admit that I am uncomfortable with the possibility that he is connected to the Muslim Religion in any way, and I know that is not PC but it's how I feel.

Frankly who wholeheartedly trusts any politician? They all have their personal agendas.  They all wears masks covering who they really are to a certain extent..   I am in no way saying I think or am I comparing him to a terrorist....But the fanatics who brought down our Towers seemed to blend right into our society and look what happened....Whamo.  

I would not feel good about Obama becoming our President.  

Right now our Country has to walk on eggshells regarding being politically correct and terrorists are living among us...planning destruction.  We can't fool ourselves thinking it could not happen again...

I don't know if any of this made sense but I guess the point I'm making is I would hate to find out other things about him when it's too late...
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darleenofalabama
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2007, 10:03:38 AM »

That is an excellent point, Jacqueline, and every American voter really ought to ponder it.  Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, and no muslim ought to be allowed into our White House for obvious reasons.
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pdh3
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2007, 03:21:38 PM »

Once again...my point was missed.
You cannot assume someone is of any religion based solely on a name, or even family history, in some cases. You should not state something as a fact, when you do not back it up with reliable sources. It's just your opinion, not a proven fact. Highlighting portions of Barack Obama's name still does not make him a Muslim. He may very well be sympathetic to Muslims....we do not know that at all.
He will be thoroughly investigated, and any negative information will come out. If it is from a reliable source, then so be it. Until that time, no one should assume things that may not be true. The hysteria over a name, or where he lived as a small child is not proof of anything. He spent many formative years in the US also.
I am neither for, nor against Barack Obama or anyone else. What I object to is opinion being stated as a known fact. In the world of the internet, and instant information and technology, the truth will be known about all politicians from now on. There really will be no place to hide anymore, or to have a secret life. So just wait for the information on Obama to surface, and we will know more about him. But do not assume he is unpatriotic without really knowing the truth.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2007, 03:52:46 PM »

Quote from: "pdh3"
Once again...my point was missed.
You cannot assume someone is of any religion based solely on a name, or even family history, in some cases. You should not state something as a fact, when you do not back it up with reliable sources. It's just your opinion, not a proven fact. Highlighting portions of Barack Obama's name still does not make him a Muslim. He may very well be sympathetic to Muslims....we do not know that at all.
He will be thoroughly investigated, and any negative information will come out. If it is from a reliable source, then so be it. Until that time, no one should assume things that may not be true. The hysteria over a name, or where he lived as a small child is not proof of anything. He spent many formative years in the US also.
I am neither for, nor against Barack Obama or anyone else. What I object to is opinion being stated as a known fact. In the world of the internet, and instant information and technology, the truth will be known about all politicians from now on. There really will be no place to hide anymore, or to have a secret life. So just wait for the information on Obama to surface, and we will know more about him. But do not assume he is unpatriotic without really knowing the truth.


No, PDH3 you do make an excellent point and I am sorry I did not acknowledge it earlier in my post.

But I am afraid that even if more info comes out stating his record is clean I will still be guilty of not having complete trust in him...I guess that is another wound left over from 9-11.

I'm not proud of feeling that way, but what has been brought out so far, does give me an uneasy feeling....Yes, hysteria over a name and the fact he does have certain muslim ties....It bothers me... Crying or Very sad

I don't want an Osama in the whitehouse....Would not want a Hitler or a Castro either....  I'm just saying that the reaction to his middlename and his school hits me in a negative way.....It's not fair to him, I know that...

But after the Towers went down, my guard went up, and it's still there.
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nonesuche
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2007, 06:52:42 PM »

pdh3-

I can't quote the sources I have for I was asked not to. I do trust them however, they aren't politicians but rather industry leaders who help to bankroll these huge campaign war chests, or rather two who do.

I will suggest if you haven't read some of his speeches in churches and regarding religion that you do so, there is much out there on the web in direct quote and content.

I will say that as a voter however, I am entitled to my 'opinion' however unworthy you may feel it is, just as you are to yours.
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2007, 11:01:56 PM »

none - you misunderstood. I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think it's right to state opinion as fact.
I was replying to Darleen's assumption that I was uneducated and not quite smart enough to understand the implications of someone's name. I refuse to judge someone based on that.
I am not championing Barack Obama. I am mostly neutral on all candidates right now, and I said earlier that I will evaluate all of them when the time to vote is here. I am aware that there is a lot of material out there on Barack Obama.
 It's not fair to assume things about me either.
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A's Fever
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2007, 12:36:09 AM »

I find it (groping for the right word here) worrisome, scary, appalling perhaps, that the entire Muslim faith has become our enemy.  I understand the fear; I feel it too.  But, for me, it is not the religion that is bad but the radical minorty that believes that violence is the answer.  There are those in our own society who would interpret the Bible in such a way as to believe it is ok to use violence to rid the world of Jews, Catholics, pro-abortionists, etc., but few of us would argue that Christianity is evil.  I personally believe that the dividing line is belief in violence.  
 
Jung said that in an insane asylum patients are far more dangerous when suffering from fear than wrath or hatred.  Because of 9/11 we are a nation filled with fear, and rightly so.  But we mustn't lose our rationality and our ability to think critically.  It is wrong to condemn good citizens for their ethnic or religious affiliations.  Should we round up all ethnic and practicing Muslims and put them into a camp, as we did to the Japanese in WWII?

As far as the war in Iraq, I don't see how it is possible to fight this cultural, ideological battle that is taking place across many countries with conventional warfare in the streets of Iraq.  At best, if ultimately successful, we would only be plugging a leaky boat.  I feel the military needs to seek out, develop and learn to use newer modern methods of warfare because we are always at least one step behind the terrorists.  Having greater firepower and a huge military presence isn't doing the job.  The terrorist seem to do a lot more with a lot less.  We need modern military leaders who can think and act like terrorists, who can collect intelligence and move across geographical lines, quickly and stealthily, rather than behave like WWII generals fighting in the trenches.

As far as our successes and all the good we are doing in Iraq, I would like to hear about them so that I would not feel so angry and conflicted about our involvement.  What have we done and accomplished?  If the government is accountable to me as a taxpayer, I want to know what we are doing.  Is the media, which is said to be so left leaning, truly stifling a lot of the info coming out of Iraq?  And the White House, who should be doing cartwheels over these accomplishments, has no way to get this info to the American public?  Seems to me everyone loved the media at the beginning of the war when they were embedded with the troops and gleefully reporting the fall of Baghdad - so what happened, the media suddenly changed?

JMO as always, of course.
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2007, 01:18:47 AM »

Great post A's.
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2007, 01:34:54 AM »

Quote from: "pdh3"
Great post A's.


pdh3, your posts on the issue have been outstanding, and in fact it is those posts that gave me the courage to post on the Political Forum again.
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nonesuche
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2007, 09:40:31 AM »

Quote from: "A's Fever"
I find it (groping for the right word here) worrisome, scary, appalling perhaps, that the entire Muslim faith has become our enemy.  I understand the fear; I feel it too.  But, for me, it is not the religion that is bad but the radical minorty that believes that violence is the answer.  There are those in our own society who would interpret the Bible in such a way as to believe it is ok to use violence to rid the world of Jews, Catholics, pro-abortionists, etc., but few of us would argue that Christianity is evil.  I personally believe that the dividing line is belief in violence.  
 
Jung said that in an insane asylum patients are far more dangerous when suffering from fear than wrath or hatred.  Because of 9/11 we are a nation filled with fear, and rightly so.  But we mustn't lose our rationality and our ability to think critically.  It is wrong to condemn good citizens for their ethnic or religious affiliations.  Should we round up all ethnic and practicing Muslims and put them into a camp, as we did to the Japanese in WWII?

As far as the war in Iraq, I don't see how it is possible to fight this cultural, ideological battle that is taking place across many countries with conventional warfare in the streets of Iraq.  At best, if ultimately successful, we would only be plugging a leaky boat.  I feel the military needs to seek out, develop and learn to use newer modern methods of warfare because we are always at least one step behind the terrorists.  Having greater firepower and a huge military presence isn't doing the job.  The terrorist seem to do a lot more with a lot less.  We need modern military leaders who can think and act like terrorists, who can collect intelligence and move across geographical lines, quickly and stealthily, rather than behave like WWII generals fighting in the trenches.

As far as our successes and all the good we are doing in Iraq, I would like to hear about them so that I would not feel so angry and conflicted about our involvement.  What have we done and accomplished?  If the government is accountable to me as a taxpayer, I want to know what we are doing.  Is the media, which is said to be so left leaning, truly stifling a lot of the info coming out of Iraq?  And the White House, who should be doing cartwheels over these accomplishments, has no way to get this info to the American public?  Seems to me everyone loved the media at the beginning of the war when they were embedded with the troops and gleefully reporting the fall of Baghdad - so what happened, the media suddenly changed?

JMO as always, of course.


A's-

I regret you see my posts as paranoia, you will likely be even more frightened by me at the end of this one I suppose. I don't trust the media, not ever. The media follows emotional sentiment, it's no longer the Cronkite era but rather what boosts the ratings overnight, no quality but rather flash over substance.

As for Iraq and terrorism, I honestly think the global war against terrorism is already lost. I often wonder how much longer my children will have before they are blown off the face of our planet, and I feel guilty for having brought them into a world with so much threat and terrorism as well. I really do not feel there is a strategy that can work against a radical faction of muslims who have been planning this ruin of our world for over a decade? Their network across just northern Europe and Canada is like a labryinth, poised to act long before we can react. Are you aware of the copious amounts of terrorist cells up and down our own east coast now?

I have been waiting for see anyone on these threads quote Obama's speeches, but to date haven't seen one quote. I've read all I can find, I began that quest due to concerns over his muslim heritage and cautions by friends who know far more than myself regarding politics. Post reading his speeches, his quest to bring religion to the senate floor did it for me - that one point alone, no I would never vote for him.

that has nothing to do with his muslim heritage.
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2007, 03:13:25 PM »

Thanks, A's. I don't think I'm very popular. Laughing

I just maybe feel a little more optimistic about how this will all play out. I believe in the ingenuity of Americans, and I think very soon, we will leave our dependence on oil in the dust. Imagine how liberating that will be. The
Middle East will no longer be pulling our energy strings.
I don't think Barack Obama means harm to the US, and I think he's patriotic, even if I don't agree with all of his ideas. I don't see him as evil incarnate, but as a very liberal Democrat. He's Oprah Winfrey's stand-in.  Laughing She's got the money and he's got the political capital.
The US has faced serious threats many times before in our past, and we have risen to the challenge. I believe we will rise to this one as well, and that our outstanding military will accomplish it's goals, if we support them and give them what they need to win.
And I don't see being optimistic as being naive. I think the American way is to never give up.
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« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2007, 03:19:28 PM »

Hi Nonesuche-

Please understand that I did not in any way direct my post at you or any individual poster, but at the general consensus of posters and their views about Islam and the media.  My post could have gone in any of the Obama threads; I just posted it here because it was the last one I looked at.

As for Obama, I have no idea what he is about at this point.  There is a lot of time before the next election, and there will be a lot of information to come.  Although I am registered as a Dem I feel no need to vote along party lines and I will educate myself and vote for whomever I feel is the best candidate.  So please do not take my comments as an endorsement of Obama in any way.
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2007, 03:19:31 PM »

Quote from: "LouiseVargas"
Mrs. Red,

Are you saying something is wrong with Barack Obama because he wasn't comfortable with a white girlfriend? Maybe there was zero chemistry. Could that be the reason?
**********************
Mrs. wrote: so those of you that really love Obama.... what about he couldn't stay with his girlfriend because she is/was white??? I am sorry but that is a mindset that is worrisome not to mention the whole Muslim thing..... and do check out the church he attends.... it's not mainstream.....


LV, my dear... it was his words that said it was because she was white.... also, like I said when he gets in the inner city it's a different tune... I don't like that... it smacks of racism in my book.... JMO.
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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2007, 03:29:33 PM »

PHD3, A's and Jaq... the point of this thread and discussion is to educate ourselves.... and discuss it's how we determine what it is we think... there is no popular or unpopularity here... at least there shouldn't be.  I love the discussion.....

having said that...

I am sorry that no one in the Muslim religion comes out or came out and declared the terrorism wrong... they seem, IMO, to be like the Germans that didn't agree with Hitler but weren't going to rock that boat either...

and Jaq, my sistah, I totally agree with you....

None, I wish I had a copy of the speech I heard Obama make in the church in Chicago. I would post it... even better if it would be written in the slang language he spoke in when he made it.... I think it would better illustrate my point when I say I see a racist when I hear him....

My first choice for President would be Condi... but she isn't running.  SO I am a huge fan of Gulliani right now.  I think he gets it...

thoughts??
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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2007, 03:31:38 PM »

Quote from: "pdh3"
Thanks, A's. I don't think I'm very popular. Laughing

I just maybe feel a little more optimistic about how this will all play out. I believe in the ingenuity of Americans, and I think very soon, we will leave our dependence on oil in the dust. Imagine how liberating that will be. The
Middle East will no longer be pulling our energy strings.
I don't think Barack Obama means harm to the US, and I think he's patriotic, even if I don't agree with all of his ideas. I don't see him as evil incarnate, but as a very liberal Democrat. He's Oprah Winfrey's stand-in.  Laughing She's got the money and he's got the political capital.
The US has faced serious threats many times before in our past, and we have risen to the challenge. I believe we will rise to this one as well, and that our outstanding military will accomplish it's goals, if we support them and give them what they need to win.
And I don't see being optimistic as being naive. I think the American way is to never give up.


I don't think I am very popular either, lol, but we are a bit less conservative than most of the political forum posters.  I personally enjoy posts that are thought provoking so that we may see different points of view and perhaps learn.  Discussion is good.  I try to be open to things, but I have opinions too. Sometimes posters take an inflexible "this is the way it is" or "this is the way it has to be" tone, closing the door to discussion rather than opening it, and this bothers me.
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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2007, 03:38:16 PM »

Quote from: "A's Fever"
Quote from: "pdh3"
Thanks, A's. I don't think I'm very popular. Laughing

I just maybe feel a little more optimistic about how this will all play out. I believe in the ingenuity of Americans, and I think very soon, we will leave our dependence on oil in the dust. Imagine how liberating that will be. The
Middle East will no longer be pulling our energy strings.
I don't think Barack Obama means harm to the US, and I think he's patriotic, even if I don't agree with all of his ideas. I don't see him as evil incarnate, but as a very liberal Democrat. He's Oprah Winfrey's stand-in.  Laughing She's got the money and he's got the political capital.
The US has faced serious threats many times before in our past, and we have risen to the challenge. I believe we will rise to this one as well, and that our outstanding military will accomplish it's goals, if we support them and give them what they need to win.
And I don't see being optimistic as being naive. I think the American way is to never give up.


I don't think I am very popular either, lol, but we are a bit less conservative than most of the political forum posters.  I personally enjoy posts that are thought provoking so that we may see different points of view and perhaps learn.  Discussion is good.  I try to be open to things, but I have opinions too. Sometimes posters take an inflexible "this is the way it is" or "this is the way it has to be" tone, closing the door to discussion rather than opening it, and this bothers me.


I think we are going to read the door closing with regard to how thoughts are being expressed... I am very passionate with my thoughts, I am the first to admit that, but I do read and think about what's posted.  

I just see things sometimes in a way that says if A is ok then why not for everyone?  Or if person B does something and it's good then why is that same action not considered good if person B does it???  I try to have equal standards.... maybe it's not always accomplished but I do try...LOL
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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2007, 04:55:41 PM »

Mrs Red-

I have been searching for a complete online copy of his speech at Trinity for nearly an hour, I find it remarkable the full transcript isn't readily accessible, only excerpts. I also find it interesting that in all of these threads regarding Obama not one mention has been made of the 12-point Black Values System that is the foundation of Trinity's religious doctrine. The basic tenants for the 12-point systen are first comes one's devotion to God, second is one's allegiance to the 12-point system?

Disturbing...... for published in the online copy of the Illiniois Review is a letter from a young black female member at Trinity defiling a columnist who questioned Obama's rhetoric. Here is the link to that exchange, I think it's timely to read for indeed it does decidedly speak to the reverse rascism you have been referring to prior.

The columnist is detailed as "Column" and the female Trinity member as "Answer".

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2007/01/a_response_from.html


Of his religious affiliation, Obama has written:

"I was drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change. [...] In the history of these struggles, I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world. [...] It was because of these newfound understandings–that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved–that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized. It came about as a choice and not an epiphany; the questions I had did not magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth."

What I find disconcerting is this, I am not a classic conservative. I am a moderate. I do not see religious doctrine of evangelists or Obama's Trinity Church as the resolution for all perceived inequities or problems in our existing government and country. I would not support Jerry Falwell for President and I will not support Obama for President.

It is abundantly clear that Obama is utilizing the history of discrimination as a large part of his platform to right what he and others perceive as the wrongs in our country. After reading the commentary of this young african-american woman, I am frankly terrified. This is the "everyman" face of Obama, these are his staunchest supporters.

We as voters have to read between the lines of what politicians are saying, the onus is upon us to do this, and to do our homework.

That being said, I did not vote for Bush in this last election. So say whatever you will, I am not a staunch republican. That being said I think Bush is taking a bath for the worst scenario for war we have ever faced, a war which can't be fought easily in the midst of civil war in Iraq and against some of the most reprehensible terrorist factions on our planet. There are no textbooks for war of this profile and as you related Mrs Red, the calls by our Democrats to pull all the troops and end all support are not the resolution either. I am trying to judge our leadership on how they adapt their strategy in the face of the most twisted and challenging war we could have imagined.

The normal rules of previous wars simply do not apply, IMO.
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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2007, 06:07:19 PM »

Thanks NONE.....

I agree completely - the normal rules don't apply.  It's a scary time we live in and if we leave it up to the politicans then we can kiss our collective behinds good-bye.  I truly don't believe that politicans have any interest in anything other than getting and staying elected so that the normal rules don't ever apply to them.  They simply do not live normal lives and have no clue about the everyday, working, average American.  They never have been and never will be..... and for those of you that are going to scream about rich Republicans, please note that Democrats are by far wealthier.....
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2007, 03:26:07 PM »

I stated in a post earlier that you can find good and bad in both major political parties, and in all candidates. No one has the market cornered on perfection. Political office means Power, and Power is corrupting. It doesn't matter who sits in the White House, or who controls Congress.....there is always the potential for abuse of Power.

What makes me uncomfortable about not going by the rules is that who decides what rules stay or go? For how long? There needs to be accountability somewhere, and the adjustments do not need to be open-ended. Our civil liberties need to be protected as much as possible. We need to be careful about how much we arre willing to give up, because we may never see things return to pre 9/11 status.

none - I am not a liberal Democrat. I am a moderate and an independent. I prefer to vote for the person I think has most of the qualities needed for effective leadership. I try not to get caught up in all the rhetoric and the things that can confuse the real issues.

I disagree with the Democrats as well on the troop issue. More troops are needed to quell the violence. I just think it should have been done when the military first requested it, and not as a result of lost political clout.

As far as the next President.....who do we have with enough leadership qualities to unite our efforts to win the war on terror? Who is up to that tremendous task?
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