Lively Case Discussion #575 1/17 - 1/19/2007

[klaasend]

Let's hope 2007 brings Justice for Natalee

[Carnut]

This whole chemical thing is exactly why there should have been samples sent to our FBI for testing on everything that was sent to Holland. At some point, they said they were doing that, right? When did that happen? It's been so long I have trouble remembering stuff.

Aside from Art Wood reporting info from a friend apparently in the ALE, there's really nothing saying what was found by who.

Both Art Wood and the Family say that the FBI initally reported blood in Deepaks car.

After KJ's trip to the Netherlands Lab it appears that Art Wood had communication with someone in the ALE saying the lab found cleaning fluid instead of blood.

but carnut..I think this gbl would account for both.

Not according to SunFreak2.

[bleachedblack]

I'm in..........

[nonesuche]

This whole chemical thing is exactly why there should have been samples sent to our FBI for testing on everything that was sent to Holland. At some point, they said they were doing that, right? When did that happen? It's been so long I have trouble remembering stuff.

Aside from Art Wood reporting info from a friend apparently in the ALE, there's really nothing saying what was found by who.

Both Art Wood and the Family say that the FBI initally reported blood in Deepaks car.

After KJ's trip to the Netherlands Lab it appears that Art Wood had communication with someone in the ALE saying the lab found cleaning fluid instead of blood.

but carnut..I think this gbl would account for both.

Not according to SunFreak2.

but you didn't limit your comments to your belief that Sunfreak is 100% correct without ever having examined the fluid nor the forensic report !

Even the extended family was told it was blood by the FBI, read it and weep carnut

[ldstlou]

This whole chemical thing is exactly why there should have been samples sent to our FBI for testing on everything that was sent to Holland. At some point, they said they were doing that, right? When did that happen? It's been so long I have trouble remembering stuff.

Aside from Art Wood reporting info from a friend apparently in the ALE, there's really nothing saying what was found by who.

Both Art Wood and the Family say that the FBI initally reported blood in Deepaks car.

After KJ's trip to the Netherlands Lab it appears that Art Wood had communication with someone in the ALE saying the lab found cleaning fluid instead of blood.

but carnut..I think this gbl would account for both.

Not according to SunFreak2.

but you didn't limit your comments to your belief that Sunfreak is 100% correct without ever having examined the fluid nor the forensic report !

Even the extended family was told it was blood by the FBI, read it and weep carnut

?? oops..did I step into the middle of something here??!! so sorry if I did!!

[bleachedblack]

Quote from Dave's book.........(pg 185)

While at Helen's office, we met with a man named Roland Peterson, a former high-ranking official within the police force and immigration departments. He has been retired for several years, and he writes children's books on the island. He said he was aligned to help us out regarding evidence on corruption.



Hmmmmmmmmm

[Carnut]

This whole chemical thing is exactly why there should have been samples sent to our FBI for testing on everything that was sent to Holland. At some point, they said they were doing that, right? When did that happen? It's been so long I have trouble remembering stuff.

Aside from Art Wood reporting info from a friend apparently in the ALE, there's really nothing saying what was found by who.

Both Art Wood and the Family say that the FBI initally reported blood in Deepaks car.

After KJ's trip to the Netherlands Lab it appears that Art Wood had communication with someone in the ALE saying the lab found cleaning fluid instead of blood.

but carnut..I think this gbl would account for both.

Not according to SunFreak2.

but you didn't limit your comments to your belief that Sunfreak is 100% correct without ever having examined the fluid nor the forensic report !

Even the extended family was told it was blood by the FBI, read it and weep carnut

No problem with the blood, I can believe that.

[nonesuche]

ldstlou-

you did NOTHING wrong whatsoever, I just think it's important carnut not be allowed to sway and confuse posters continuously, particularly when none of his knowledge is firsthand.

[nonesuche]

carnut-

do you think our FBI is capable of doing "in the field" testing for substances?

[ldstlou]

I am not understanding what is being said.
I believe..and I am still looking in Dave's book, that they did say they found evidence of blood. I think we all assumed some kind of testing was done that showed blood. If that were the case, and they did a luminol test for example, it very well may have tested positive for blood. In the lab, upon further testing, it could have been proven to be cleaning fluid.

I am just saying if it was this gpl...it all makes sense..even the reason they found it there.

ok guys..what am I missing?

[Carnut]

bleachedblack wrote:

GHB is not a cleaning solvent, but GBL is.

Exactly! But the GBL is chemically altered by its reaction with the base of NaOH.

Solvent means that it dissolves another substance. It's actually a chemical reaction.

repost of Sunfreaks response on the GBL bit.

[nonesuche]

I think the scientific points are one thing, the witness points another, but I do not think that the FBI tells even extended family that a victim is deceased without some form of truly corroborative and not only circumstantial evidence.

I've said my piece now about rewriting history for today except to add that Klaas is a saint to endure all of this !! I salute you Klaas !!!

[klaasend]

Just posted today in the Corruption and Collusion thread and sent out by Natalee's Freebirds:

Did the Criminals Use Cleaning Fluid on Natalee Holloway?


ARUBA'S FAILURE TO PROSECUTE - PART 3

MISSING WITNESS STATEMENTS AND REPORTS


Gammabutyrolactone (GBL)

A commonly found GHB precursor is gammabutyrolactone (GBL), also known as blue nitro, gamma-G, renewtrient, reviverent. GBL is an organic solvent used for cleaning circuit boards, stripping paint, or flavoring soy products. It acts like GHB but has a slower onset and a longer duration. Adverse effects include respiratory depression and cardiac dysrhythmia. It is metabolized in the liver into GHB but can also be made into GHB using home kits.
http://www.stuartxchange.com/DesignerDrugs.html .


Prior to forensic testing being conducted at the NFI laboratory in the Netherlands and the FBI laboratory in Quantico, Virginia, the Aruban Prime Minister and FBI confirmed that blood had been detected in Deepak Kalpoe's vehicle. The Aruban Prime Minister stated this finding publicly while the FBI informed Beth and Jug Twitty. It can be assumed that this confirmation was based on a Luminol test performed in Aruba.

However, such testing can provide a false DNA finding when there is the presence of certain ingredients in some cleaning fluids. The NFI and the FBI laboratories both concluded in their forensic testing of the fabric samples taken from Deepak‘s vehicle that cleaning fluid was present - not human DNA.

There appears to be a general consensus that the cleaning fluid identified through forensic testing by the NFI and the FBI, in all probability, resulted from Deepak cleaning his vehicle the morning that Natalee Holloway went missing - an incidence observed by a neighbour of the Kalpoes. Jug Twitty claims it could have resulted from ten days of cleaning.

However, could this “cleaning fluid” have been the common alternative date rape drug, gammabutyrolactone (GBL)? GBL is an organic solvent that is used for cleaning circuit boards and stripping paint.

The revealed witness/suspect statements of Joran, Deepak and Satish disclose that drinks were carried from Carlos 'N Charlies to Deepak's vehicle on the morning of May 30, 2005. Could one of the drinks containing GBL have been spilled/splattered - possibly during a scuffle? Could the GBL have been spilled/splattered while being mixed into a drink?

As GBL is a strong solvent used for cleaning circuit boards and stripping paint, it can be assumed that Deepak did not use this particular product to clean the fabric of his precious vehicle.

The report of the orginal Aruban tests as well as the FBI and NFI reports regarding findings pertaining to the samples of fabric taken from Deepak Kalpoe's vehicle should comprise part of the Natalee Holloway case file. Inquiring mind want to know if the “cleaning fluid” findings were determined to be gammabutyrolactone (GBL).


Natalee and her family deserve justice, and we will not let up until they have it.

Natalee's Freebirds

[msmarple]

idstlou - not to worry.

I'm staying out of the chemical soup because chemistry/science are my very worst subjects.

And also because I think it quite possible that it wasn't Deepak's car - or not the interior of Deepak's car - that went to Holland.

[klaasend]

idstlou - not to worry.

I'm staying out of the chemical soup because chemistry/science are my very worst subjects.

And also because I think it quite possible that it wasn't Deepak's car - or not the interior of Deepak's car - that went to Holland.

That would not surprise me at all

[nonesuche]

well that information rocks now doesn't it? places this in a much more certain light.......thank you Klaas !!

[Carnut]

Sunfreak,
Artificial sweetener is the same as some well known ant killers so I don't ever presume anything about the government in that regard. Ditto to fluoride in our drinking water and all the rest.

And I don't even think the end product would be exactly GHB necessarily but something close enough to do the trick so to speak. No, I seriously doubt it would be crystal clear and pure GHB of medicinal and pharmaceutical quality but think it is likely sufficient for their intended purposes.

There used to be that website sleepingb*tches.com that talked about being able to make date rape drugs from things at hand. Would it be marketable to hospitals for surgical purposes. No way but then that's not their objective.

.

I understand what you are saying. The FDA is very strict about the formulations of medications and has strict guidelines for the companies/plants that actually produce the product.

Obviously with these home recipes for making GHB, it would depend upon the skill of the chemist in measuring the chemicals, the purity of the chemicals they are using, their skill at combining the chemicals, and supervising the chemical reactions. In other words, these home chemists do not have the controls that pharmaceutical companies have, nor the equipment to make the product uniformly. I agree that what these home chemists make can have the desired effect or can kill the recipient because of inaccuracy in dosage.

What I am trying to say is that just because one of the components of GHB is a solvent, does not make the final product a cleaning solvent. The chemical reactions rearrange the compounds into different compounds. These new compounds have different properties and functions from the original compounds (substrates).

I think it is erroneous and misleading to call GHB a cleaning fluid.

I appreciate you sending me the article/study. I have not read that article and I probably won't, although I have a BS in Chemistry. The breakdown products of GHB in the body and the effect they have on the body are more important than discussing how GHB is made, imo.

I do believe that Natalee was slipped GHB in her drink at CnC's.

Repost of Sunfreaks post on GHB.

[Carnut]

idstlou - not to worry.

I'm staying out of the chemical soup because chemistry/science are my very worst subjects.

And also because I think it quite possible that it wasn't Deepak's car - or not the interior of Deepak's car - that went to Holland.

That would not surprise me at all

I also agree and that most all of this discussion is much ado about nothing.

Just don't want to see too much erroneous info being posted as fact.

[ldstlou]

Just posted today in the Corruption and Collusion thread and sent out by Natalee's Freebirds:

Did the Criminals Use Cleaning Fluid on Natalee Holloway?


ARUBA'S FAILURE TO PROSECUTE - PART 3

MISSING WITNESS STATEMENTS AND REPORTS


Gammabutyrolactone (GBL)

A commonly found GHB precursor is gammabutyrolactone (GBL), also known as blue nitro, gamma-G, renewtrient, reviverent. GBL is an organic solvent used for cleaning circuit boards, stripping paint, or flavoring soy products. It acts like GHB but has a slower onset and a longer duration. Adverse effects include respiratory depression and cardiac dysrhythmia. It is metabolized in the liver into GHB but can also be made into GHB using home kits.
http://www.stuartxchange.com/DesignerDrugs.html .


Prior to forensic testing being conducted at the NFI laboratory in the Netherlands and the FBI laboratory in Quantico, Virginia, the Aruban Prime Minister and FBI confirmed that blood had been detected in Deepak Kalpoe's vehicle. The Aruban Prime Minister stated this finding publicly while the FBI informed Beth and Jug Twitty. It can be assumed that this confirmation was based on a Luminol test performed in Aruba.

However, such testing can provide a false DNA finding when there is the presence of certain ingredients in some cleaning fluids. The NFI and the FBI laboratories both concluded in their forensic testing of the fabric samples taken from Deepak‘s vehicle that cleaning fluid was present - not human DNA.

There appears to be a general consensus that the cleaning fluid identified through forensic testing by the NFI and the FBI, in all probability, resulted from Deepak cleaning his vehicle the morning that Natalee Holloway went missing - an incidence observed by a neighbour of the Kalpoes. Jug Twitty claims it could have resulted from ten days of cleaning.

However, could this “cleaning fluid” have been the common alternative date rape drug, gammabutyrolactone (GBL)? GBL is an organic solvent that is used for cleaning circuit boards and stripping paint.

The revealed witness/suspect statements of Joran, Deepak and Satish disclose that drinks were carried from Carlos 'N Charlies to Deepak's vehicle on the morning of May 30, 2005. Could one of the drinks containing GBL have been spilled/splattered - possibly during a scuffle? Could the GBL have been spilled/splattered while being mixed into a drink?

As GBL is a strong solvent used for cleaning circuit boards and stripping paint, it can be assumed that Deepak did not use this particular product to clean the fabric of his precious vehicle.

The report of the orginal Aruban tests as well as the FBI and NFI reports regarding findings pertaining to the samples of fabric taken from Deepak Kalpoe's vehicle should comprise part of the Natalee Holloway case file. Inquiring mind want to know if the “cleaning fluid” findings were determined to be gammabutyrolactone (GBL).


Natalee and her family deserve justice, and we will not let up until they have it.

Natalee's Freebirds

thanks Klaas!!
This is the article I read this morning that got me searching!!
Thats why I was shocked to find the website!! I think this stuff is more commonly used than I ever imagined!!

Makes sense these boys used this stuff on Natalee...and that it WAS in the car!! And not for cleaning. And if they ever got caught with it in the car..all they had to say was that it was cleaning fluid!!

[klaasend]

well that information rocks now doesn't it? places this in a much more certain light.......thank you Klaas !!

I just feel it's a possibility that should be looked into    It's quite possible that the ingredients to make GHB are kept in Deepak's car too.  Lot's of ways to go with this.