Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[Puzzler]

Jean Caseraz (sp?), who's in Peru, says that in Joran's room was found a woman's small white leather purse with jewels on it and in videos of Stephany no white purse is seen.

Who's purse is it?  Has he been stealing purses for money?

Earlier it was said that Stephany had a small white purse with "Flower Power" on it.

I believe Casarez said it had "Flower Power" on it now that you mention it.  It must have been her purse then, but while Jean was talking, they were still trying to track down who's purse it was.

Also, carrying something small in one hand...could that have been her car keys?

[Mary]

Well I for one do not believe what he is saying. I think LE said the putor they
found was hers. I remember thinking Oh good she did buy one out of the
money her dad gave. Also remember he said he couldn't remember where he
stayed, so he had no baggage at all. I think he mailed his computor to his
mom or lawyer or someone. Also the clothes that they said had blood spatter
on them could very well be hair dye. They haven't tested them yet. He just
told them a story to shut them up and leave him alone. We probably will hear
3 more versions of what happened in that room. LIES_LIES_LIES.

[Bearlyhere]

Remember when the Kalpoes and Joran were recorded in the police car?  Remember when they mentioned Joran "hitting the girl?"  God, I hope he is stopped. 

I think he's stopped, Sharon. I really do. I don't recall anybody saying Joran hit Natalee in the car recording, but it's been a while since I've looked at it. I remember a reference to Satish hitting a girl with a car. I also remember them saying if they find her, "they'll see that sh*t", which was probably a reference to physical abuse.

Joran broke Stephany's neck with his bare hands, IMO. The bruises around her neck show that......... again, my opinion, but I'm going to make the docs here look at the diagrams when they get to the clinic.

When I think of killing someone like that, I shudder. I believe he'd done it before and liked the power and thrill of it. I think he murdered Natalee similarly. I hate it, but I think it.

Killing someone with a gun leaves you out of reach of the victim, so you don't feel anything.
Killing someone with a knife, bat, pillow, or other instrument gets you closer to the victim.  Sometimes the person cannot go through with it because of that.
Killing someone with your bare hands where you are actually touching their person, twisting her, hitting her, breaking her, and kicking her with your own body is beyond words.  Body to body contact where you are hurting someone and you know it is barbaric.

[klaasend]

WOW WOW WOW

I have to leave the house for the day -- but just caught the news.

WOW WOW WOW

I need to read up tonight before I form an opinion.

My first question however --if he 'hit' her out of anger because she violated his personal space (I watched the Today show) --  when did her pants fall off??

My lingering question is still how could Stephany not know who he was in the casino?

Oh boy. Here we go.

5 years. I hope it is finally unraveling.

I STAND WITH THE GIRLS and their families
Justice for Natalee and Stephany

BINGO - he is lying again, that is not why he murdered her

[SunnyinTX]

In regard to "green" bruises:  a bruise is caused when trauma to an area causes blood to gather at the spot of trauma, initially, the bruise is red for a few minutes; as the blood loses oxygen, the bruise turns blue for a few days; as the blood breaks down, the bruise turns green for a few days and then yellow for a few days before the bruise goes away.

Thanks for the explanation....mine just seem to go from purple to yellow...never seen green...

so those may have been the first blows ? knocking her down of maybe dragging her across something hard...just thinking out loud

I just woke up and am many pages behind...forgive if this has been addressed and I have not seen it yet.....

All of the above (as darleen described) would be from a living person ... but once a person is dead there is no blood flow. The stages of bruising still happen after death?? This seems impossible, but maybe not.

I have some personal experience with this one, Nut. Mom's face was badly bruised, and she was killed instantly (dead on the scene) from a car wreck. When the providers get here, I'll ask how that happens. Blood will stop pumping when the heart stops, but blood can flow from an injury. Generally there isn't much blood unless a person's heart is beating.

CBB, I am so sorry....HUGS to you

the server is constipated again this morning.......all stopped up

[Puzzler]

Okay, I just saw the video with Joran and Stephany walking through the Hotel Tac main area and she does NOT have anything in either hand.  It's clear.

No purse, no keys, nothing "at that point".

[Nut44x4]

Just making a note:

Peru -  Lima   Tue, 08:03 AM  now

[Anna]

The judges are not going to care WHY he did it.  He's still guilty.  He has to say something.  He can't just adm it he's a monster.

Stephany's family has all the influence this time.  They have been so kind to Natalee's family.  I am trying to adapt to thinking that if they are satisfied with the outcome of all of this then I am.

I am trying very hard to be as gracious as they are.  If the families of the victims are OK with how this goes, I will try to be.  And I do believe being so beloved in Peru, Peru will see that Mr. Flores is.  I'm just not as understanding by nature nor as thoughtful of others as they have been.

But if they are OK with the outcome, I will try to be as well. 

[Dihannah1]

I haven't read back this morning, but watched the news when I woke up.  All I can say is AMEN!   I was crying this morning during the interview with Dave.  Stephany's father wants to speak with the Holloway family.  Sounds, like he wants to help them further, in finding Nat.

I'm hoping he took a plea deal for the whereabout of Natalee, but we'll see.   He's toast either way, with the Murder charge and still has to faced the extortion charges.   No more murders for him! The world is just a little safer now, as God only knows how many he's truly killed.....  Must be keeping a scrapbook on his laptop, since he got that infuriated about poor Steph looking at his laptop.  She probably saw way more than he ever wanted to be found,, not just his connection to Natalee.

[Nut44x4]

The whereabouts of Natalee is his ace in the hole. He will hold on to that information for as long as he can....as long as he thinks it is useful to him. He has gotten a lot of mileage out of keeping the truth away from her family. He has enjoyed having the power to hurt her loved ones,and he has also enjoyed all the attention from the media and the Joran groupies. I believe he will use Natalee to the bitter end....just like Ted Bundy did with the information about his victims. LE never did get all the details they sought before Ted was executed. Ted played with them for a while and tried to use information to buy himself more time. I think Joran may try to do the same thing. I don't think he'll ever tell the full story about either one of these murders. He will be self-serving until he takes his very last breath because he is a psychopath.

good post pdh3

[Bearlyhere]

If she saw anything on his laptop, imo...it would be something recent. She didn't have a lot of time to dig for stuff.

Scenerio:
The laptop was on w/ screensaver covering screen...Joran goes out for drinks...she touches laptop and screensaver goes poof and TADA ---
On laptop screen is info re: the new charges brought forth by Alabama/FBI, etc. re: extortion, etc., in Natalee's case.  She knows he is a 'wanted man'. Just then, Joran comes back and catches her reading it and flips out...

Not sure I believe the laptop confession, but the above could have happened (or something similar), if true.

Dave Holloway said there was a show on there at 8am due to the 5th anniversary of Natalee being missing.  She had the TV on, could have caught some of that , maybe even grabbing the laptop to look for more info when he came in and she became upset and he freaked.

I still think he wanted to rape her, or else why give her the roofies to begin with?

 

[adoronron]

Do you think if he really knows where Daddy put Natalee he will tell us now?
Also if he does will the Netherlands arrest him so he goes to serve his  sentence  there first?
Or does Peru  get him first..

Blonde,
I've been wondering the same thing. Stef's father can ask the Peru police to get Joran to come clean on Natalee. But then that may be a catch 22 situation. If he confesses does Aruba get him back for trial first?

And I would not be surprised at all if today Aruba announces the searches there have produced some evidence and they are charging Joran with murder. Or, they have reviewed their files and now want to prosecute him.

Ado

[twinkiesmom]

The TV was on in the room....She could have seen a 5-year Nat story on TV without having to snoop on his laptop.

[Sdb]

Okay, I just saw the video with Joran and Stephany walking through the Hotel Tac main area and she does NOT have anything in either hand.  It's clear.

No purse, no keys, nothing "at that point".

It seems to be a line. http://www.artfire.com/modules.php?name=Shop&op=listing&product_id=1332363
Maybe it was in her pocket?

[Port Valerie]

The Peruvian police will likely issue a written Press Release at the news conference.  We will be able to get a copy and see what it hsa to say.  They can release evidence because there is no jury pool to contaminate as it is a 3 member panel of judges.

Because Joran says it doesn't mean the judges have to believe him.

Let's wait and see what LE has to say. 

It's amazing that it took LE only 48 hours to extract a confession and ALE didn't in 5 years.  And even if he takes it all back, anything said can still be used against him with the judgese deciding on the merit of  it.

He can wait up to 2 years for an actual trial.  I will be amazed if he survives to stand trial if it takes 2 years.

Will be interesting to watch the Arubans and Dutch try to spin this.  "After all, Joran DOES now say he did this"

I think that is what the judges are going to hear.  But I remain hopeful that something about Natalee was found.

I'm not certain there is a trial in the sense that we think of one. According to the UK pamphlet to its citizens arrested in Peru, guilt is determined by the police and judges in a very short time; it's sentencing that can take up to two years, and the guilty party waits in prison the whole time.

[Anna]

The Peruvian police will likely issue a written Press Release at the news conference.  We will be able to get a copy and see what it hsa to say.  They can release evidence because there is no jury pool to contaminate as it is a 3 member panel of judges.

Because Joran says it doesn't mean the judges have to believe him.

Let's wait and see what LE has to say. 

It's amazing that it took LE only 48 hours to extract a confession and ALE didn't in 5 years.  And even if he takes it all back, anything said can still be used against him with the judgese deciding on the merit of  it.

He can wait up to 2 years for an actual trial.  I will be amazed if he survives to stand trial if it takes 2 years.

Will be interesting to watch the Arubans and Dutch try to spin this.  "After all, Joran DOES now say he did this"

I think that is what the judges are going to hear.  But I remain hopeful that something about Natalee was found.

I'm not certain there is a trial in the sense that we think of one. According to the UK pamphlet to its citizens arrested in Peru, guilt is determined by the police and judges in a very short time; it's sentencing that can take up to two years, and the guilty party waits in prison the whole time.

No, there won't be a trial with a jury as we are accustomed to but at some point the prosecutor has to present the evidence to the judges in some form or other.  Doubt there will be any media coverage of this and the conclusion is pretty well decided beforehand.

[klaasend]

The TV was on in the room....She could have seen a 5-year Nat story on TV without having to snoop on his laptop.

Good point Twinkles! 

[SunnyinTX]

Good Morning Anna and Monks.....I was so excited I forgot to say Good Morning!

Anna, I was thinking the same thing.....the arubans couldn't break a 17 yo, but the Peruvians got a confession in 2 days after 5 years and how many crimes later??  Personally I don't care HOW they got the confession....they got it.

[jen3560]

Thx TxMom!  This makes me go hmmmmmm............

http://www.trome.com/tonline/Html/2010-06-07/ontractualidad1093733.html

translated:

She was killed by reviewing your laptop
By J. Yucra

It is professional poker player and believed to have an ace up his sleeve, but his alibi collapsed like a house of cards. The Dutchman Joran van der Sloot (23) had no other choice but to confess to the murder of the young Stephany Flores Ramirez (21), whom he met at a casino in Miraflores. "Yes, I killed her. I did, I accept," he said with a breathtaking cold, with no sign of repentance.

According to police sources, the murderer, during interrogation by more than ten hours, attributed the crime to the anger that caused him to find the girl reviewing the files on your laptop.

It is presumed that she opened her e-mails that the subject had known about his criminal acts. Then the girl confirmed the suspicion in the Internet search engines, where there is abundant information of the crime of Natalee Holloway (17) and the extortion of their parents, in Aruba, facts of which he is the prime suspect.

Van der Sloot had confessed his crime minutes after 9 pm last Sunday. After a deep breath and fell silent for long seconds.

Would have revealed that the crime occurred after 8:20 am on Sunday 30 May at the hotel 'Tac' of Miraflores, where they had taken after meeting at the casino 'Atlantic'. Joran had gone to buy bread and coffee for breakfast. She took advantage of his absence to check your laptop and discovered he was a murderer and extortionist.

Punching and racket
"He came back and was enraged. The two began to argue violently. The man shot to death," a police source told.

This version is confirmed by the coffee residue found on the floor and the victim had bruises on various parts of the body.

Also, the summary of autopsy determined that she showed signs of ten punches in the face that broke his nose and mouth, causing a time-to-eye inflammation.

In addition, five blows to the head and neck with a racket head trauma caused her death necessary. She also had bruises on the hands and feet, as they tried to defend himself, but was little he could do to a man over 90 meters tall.

Then, after committing the murder, the stranger kept his belongings in two suitcases and valuables from the victim, as well as jewelry and money, to leave the accommodation.

On the other hand, it was learned that yesterday three Forensic psychologists were gathered for at least five hours with foreign countries.

His public defender, Carla Odría, waived the defense when he heard the confession.

[Anna]

But if one saw pictures of Joran on TV about Natalee and his laptop was sitting right there turned on I think most people would want to take a look and see if this is the same Joran.

And maybe she knew he was and was trying to find out something or get him to admit what he did with Natalee.

Onlly two people were present and one of them is dead now and Joran did it.  Murder is murder.  Unless self-defense or something like it, motive does not alter the fact of the guilt.