Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[Bearlyhere]

Got it. Beth on Greta, November 19, 2008:

HOLLOWAY: Yes. And Greta, I was just wanting to say that, you know, like I said, it's been a long time, but it's never too late for justice. And I'd be good with a "Midnight Express" prison anywhere for Joran.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454527,00.html

Wow!  How did you find it?

Googled "Midnight Express" + "Beth Holloway"

Great job!

[MisGivings]

Lawyers advised Joran
Two assisting counsel represented him in Office and Dirincri, but calls a lawyer Dutchman. His backpack was found  a laptop that could be Stephany Flores. Police are investigating.

The Dutchman Joran Van Der Sloot, 22, feels increasingly cornered. So, now struggling to communicate with his mother and getting a lawyer to free him from Dutchman a tough sentence which could be many years in a prison in our country. The young man is guarded by four policemen in the cells of the Dirincri. The officials said that note was tense.

LAWYERS. The public defender advised Rosa Luisa Camargo Madrid abroad in the Public Ministry. Perú.21 spoke with the lawyer, who narrated that the Van Der Sloot to ask about the charges against him there, he replied: "Yes, Stephany Flores's death."

"He said he wanted to communicate with her mother and needed a lawyer from the country and not trade. Yet he counseled and asked if he had a friend in Peru, and Uruguay Elton responded that Garcia "he said.

Meanwhile, during his statement to the police in Dirincri, which lasted until dawn yesterday, another public defender, Carla Odria, as advised in this process. "I can not declare in advance because the process still continues," he said in succinct when asked about the coach.

"OTHER EVIDENCE? Also, yesterday released a video where you can see the time police searched the belongings of the Dutchman. Among them was a laptop HP brand and various notes and coins in Chile, Bolivia and Peru.

The experts are investigating the origin of the machine, as the father of Stephany, Ricardo Flores, said that one day before the murder he gave his daughter a thousand dollars to buy the unit. Police carried out a confrontation with hotel employees TAC, Miraflores, who corroborated that enter the Dutchman saw Stephany, on Sunday 30 May.

Today you could have the integral result of the autopsy that was performed on the victim. In this way you can determine whether she was raped or not.

Meanwhile, Joseph Tacopina, a former Van Der Sloot attorney who successfully defended in the case of the disappearance of American Natalee Holloway, questioned via telephone communication with the Panorama program, the Dutchman evidence implicating the crime in Lima .

"How do you know that inside the room there was no third person waiting for them?" He asked. He also expressed his surprise at the time that passed between the day of the murder and the discovery of the body.

http://peru21.pe/impresa/noticia/abogadas-asesoraron-joran/2010-06-07/276910

ARGH, now they are saying it isn't Joran's laptop they got from his backpack, it was Stephany's. "His backpack was found a laptop that could be Stephany Flores. Police are investigating."
So, does anyone know if they have been able to recover the things Joran says are in some Chilean hotel room? Things like his credit cards, etc?

[Rob]

Morning all.

Back on page 7 pr 8 Mags posted that Tim Miller has two new targets - the pond at Monstraat and Bubali - she got that from CBS 42, thanks for that Mags, you're a doll!

While I agree with Red that - it has to be done, and with Tim - you're damned if you do and damned if you don't (I think Tim said that - if not it was Dave), I think it's more than obvious that Janet's "Power's that Be" are not going to allow anyone to search anywhere Natalee may truly lie.

No one is gonna let this case willing chew it's way up the food chain. It's silly to think that this "new witness" - twice polygraphed - is some sort of great guy as described by Tim. Sorry to say, and believe me, I DO respect Tim and all he has done for Natalee and so many others. Look at my sig line - that's been there since day one.

Tim has known TJ Ward for years - they were on Aruba together, if this new witness is so reliable - why didn't Tim have him LVA'd? Tim had Misty Croslin LVA'd. And TJ did it I know - I posted the LVA results.

This case is not going to go from Joran, Paulus, Deepak and Satish to Steve Croes to van der Straaten to the Aruban police department to the Prosecutor's office to the Prime Minister to the Nederlands. You know how many heads would roll?

It would be a calamity that would strain international relations. And yes, international relations are already strained. But it hasn't risen to more than just the people that follow this case. I seriously doubt that the State dept, with their "let's all get along" mentality is ready to let this go gangrene and kill Holland and what's left of Aruba.

Believe me, I would love that - but I'm also a realist. If Holland and the US can contain this to Joran and a dead Paulus - they would love that. But that's not the truth and everyone knows it. I WANT the truth no matter where that goes - that's why I'm still here, but I'm not gonna buy that it's just Joran and a dead Paulus that had the power or pull to make this entire travesty occur.

Tim can search wherever Natalee is not, and how many times are they going to search this lil Monstraat pond? That's a waste of time and money.

I also realize that these stupid Arubans could place her body somewhere to be found, but if that's the plan - they would have done that years ago and it would have been on the beach where she buried herself under 8 feet of sand and was uncovered when a hurricane passed by. Clear up that crab trap - that's where most of the answers lie.

Why didn't the Arubans search Monstraat? Why not Bubali? See, when Renho knows the plan you know it's a lie. As lazy and as incompetent as the Arubans are - they can still put on a pair of boots and gloves and search on their own. This non-sense could go on for years as the ponds and location shift all over the island as "new witnesses and new tips" come in. Eating up money and time. Even if they did search it - don't you think they would have recovered Natalee and made her disappear again to prevent the case from ever progressing? See, they just don't want to deal with it.

Somethings are universal - Aruban stupidity and the Aruban Hokie Pokie.

[MisGivings]

Anyone have any thoughts on how you think Anita will handle the latest with Joran, now that she doesn't have Paulus to help?

Wonder if she'll have a breakdown or if one of Paulus' old friends that are familiar with law will end up helping/guiding her?

Well, since I never saw her grieving over Paulus's death, I imagine she will continue with life as usual, playing Bingo, not instilling good values in Sebastian, cohooting with the likes of Renho, and every other doofus on the Island who will have her.

[Jo-An]

He would have killed for money
 
New hypothesis. Police points to the bank accounts of Stephany Flores. Agents of the Homicide Division say Joran van der Sloot was able to force the girl to withdraw money or make a bank transfer.

One week before the murder of Tatiana Flores Stephany Ramirez, the police still can not decipher a great mystery: why this crime. However, officers of the Homicide Division who boast of not discarding any hypothesis, now point to the bank accounts of the victim.

Researchers are almost convinced that, after being seduced by Joran van der Sloot, the young woman was allegedly forced him to make withdrawals of cash or bank transfer.

It is likely that the decline has been beaten to death on the morning of May 30.

http://www.larepublica.pe/sociedad/07/06/2010/la-habria-asesinado-por-dinero

[MisGivings]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

Yes, and Natalee was supposed to be a virgin.  That may have been important to her so she fought extra hard.  It all becomes clearer now.  I could not believe anyone had that much rage in him, but now I can.  I feel numb about this whole thing, angry, teary-eyed, and shocked. 

If he was arrested and put in jail in the US for extortion, those in Aruba who worship him would have thought it was a setup.  This way there is no doubt of his guilt.  I am so so sorry that Stephany became yet another victim of the Joran Rage Machine.  He should have been off the streets long ago.  He should have been locked up in a mental institution after brutally murdering his dog.

I wonder why he killed the dog so brutally?  Did the dog refuse to listen to one of his commands?  Why would anyone kill their own dog?  Brutally kill your pet, why?  He should have been locked up a long time ago.

The prison system he is in gives me no comfort, I don't want to know he is being brutalized either.  I am very relieved he is locked up and off the streets, I think he deserves punishment and to be locked up the rest of his life with no privileges.  I think 3 meals is too much for him.  I would like to see him without any comforts, computer, TV, cell phone, but I do not want to see him brutalized.  I think I am in the minority, but I don't want to ever become the animal he is, taking pleasure in the torture of another human being.

The whole world is watching Peru and how they handle this monster. For 7 days, he will will get 3 hots and a cot, but after that, it will be sheer Hell. They do not want to do anything that will jeopardize being able to prosecute this sorry excuse for a human being We have no idea what is going on in the interrogations room, but we can rest assured if he keeps playing stupid, there is going to be Hell to pay.

[Nut44x4]

Lawyers advised Joran
Two assisting counsel represented him in Office and Dirincri, but calls a lawyer Dutchman. His backpack was found  a laptop that could be Stephany Flores. Police are investigating.

The Dutchman Joran Van Der Sloot, 22, feels increasingly cornered. So, now struggling to communicate with his mother and getting a lawyer to free him from Dutchman a tough sentence which could be many years in a prison in our country. The young man is guarded by four policemen in the cells of the Dirincri. The officials said that note was tense.

LAWYERS. The public defender advised Rosa Luisa Camargo Madrid abroad in the Public Ministry. Perú.21 spoke with the lawyer, who narrated that the Van Der Sloot to ask about the charges against him there, he replied: "Yes, Stephany Flores's death."

"He said he wanted to communicate with her mother and needed a lawyer from the country and not trade. Yet he counseled and asked if he had a friend in Peru, and Uruguay Elton responded that Garcia "he said.

Meanwhile, during his statement to the police in Dirincri, which lasted until dawn yesterday, another public defender, Carla Odria, as advised in this process. "I can not declare in advance because the process still continues," he said in succinct when asked about the coach.

"OTHER EVIDENCE? Also, yesterday released a video where you can see the time police searched the belongings of the Dutchman. Among them was a laptop HP brand and various notes and coins in Chile, Bolivia and Peru.

The experts are investigating the origin of the machine, as the father of Stephany, Ricardo Flores, said that one day before the murder he gave his daughter a thousand dollars to buy the unit. Police carried out a confrontation with hotel employees TAC, Miraflores, who corroborated that enter the Dutchman saw Stephany, on Sunday 30 May.

Today you could have the integral result of the autopsy that was performed on the victim. In this way you can determine whether she was raped or not.

Meanwhile, Joseph Tacopina, a former Van Der Sloot attorney who successfully defended in the case of the disappearance of American Natalee Holloway, questioned via telephone communication with the Panorama program, the Dutchman evidence implicating the crime in Lima .

"How do you know that inside the room there was no third person waiting for them?" He asked. He also expressed his surprise at the time that passed between the day of the murder and the discovery of the body.

http://peru21.pe/impresa/noticia/abogadas-asesoraron-joran/2010-06-07/276910

ARGH, now they are saying it isn't Joran's laptop they got from his backpack, it was Stephany's. "His backpack was found a laptop that could be Stephany Flores. Police are investigating."
So, does anyone know if they have been able to recover the things Joran says are in some Chilean hotel room? Things like his credit cards, etc?

That must be another translation blurp...how would that be possible? When she left her home to go out w/ friends, would she have taken her laptop?? If so, where was it when they entered the Hotel room? Neither of them were carrying a laptop. This doesn't sound right to me.

[Anna]

I believe thius is the time of year that the Monserat pond is normally dry or very low on water.  But Fred Golba and his WonderDog already blasted much of it with fire hoses so not sure what good searching it again will do.  I wonder if these spots are supposed to be from the map provided by Joran.  In April per Glenda (ha!) or maybe just seized from Jaap last week.

I hope Tim Miller will have a copy of the map Jaap claims to have so he can search that.

If Glendo knows of some house being built on a site that Joran said is where the remains are located, why is this not being searched as well?

Leave no stone unturned should include any map given to Japp and this location where a house has supposedly been built.

JMO

[MisGivings]

Convincing evidence against Joran

Bert houses and Kieran Bald

LIMA (PERU) - Police in Peru today think all the first reports have traces that might indicate the involvement of Joran van der Sloot at the death of Stephany Flores.

Ricardo Flores, the father of the victim, points to Peruvian television Joran van der Sloot as the main suspect

"All the evidence suggests that he has killed Stephany," said Cesar Guardia, head of Criminal Investigation Department of police. Thus, the murdered Stephany presumably tissue under her fingernails. Police from exclusive footage of the medical examination of Joran on his body left no visible traces. Also bloody shoe prints between bed and bathroom are examined.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6875266/__Overtuigend_bewijs_tegen_Joran__.html

Guess he couldn't find a storm drain to dump his bloody shoes in.

[SunnyinTX]

From the Steph Watts show tonight - thanks Sleuth!

Will there be a transcript anywhere later?

Recap – sorry, names may be spelled wrong.  This is NOT a transcript and is paraphrased.

Dave has not spoken to any media prior to this.
  SNIPPED

Good Morning Monks!  SLEUTH THANK YOU...good to see you in the cage.

[wingnut]

CBS/42 Birmingham had Jossy on by phone.

Jossy said that Aruba had enough evidence to prosecute but failed to do so.
Two new searches are planned.  One at the bird sanctuary and one at the Monserrat Pond.
He said that Deepak and Satish should be very worried.  Talk is that Joran will bargin for
a better prison in Peru by giving up information on the Holloway case.

Then Jug was on and said that he was sure that Deepak knew what happened.
He was not sure about Satish.

If I were Deepak and Satish I would throw Joran under the bus right now and tell everything they know.  Blame him and Paulus for everything.

     They won't -- at least not yet.  It's not in their interest to do that right now.  Not currently charged with any crime, opening their mouths can only invite trouble.  If they were facing serious criminal prosecution, however, it would be a different story. 

However, when Joran caves - and he will - the Kalpoes' involvement may be "elevated".  Start singing Deepak.  Tell what you know before Joran tells what he "knows."

[MisGivings]

CBB, if you have time would you find the picture that iirc Misgivings posted of Stephany today and post it again?  I scrolled through most of the pages in this thread but I didn't find it.  I haven't put one in my photobucket yet, I promise to do it soon.

TIA  (((hugs))) wub you too!

Good night!

[wingnut]

If it's already been said, sorry!  She appears to me to have a necklace on in this photo.

[Anna]

Rob, As you may already know, I am not convinced that was Natalee's remains in the fish trap.  I just don't know one way or the other.  Not a popular position to hold on this forum but I'm used to that from not believing the Lorenzo connection.

If that was Natalee in the trap, why wouldn't ALE have just removed any remains before the dive crew arrived?  I think they would have.  And they certainly would not have been providing coordinates if there was anything to be found.

But since ALE absconded with the contents, no one can know for sure, IMO.  But it has never made sense to me that ALE would say to dive there if there was really anything to be found.  Not their MO.

As for this witness and the pond, I thought as you did that this had already been checked by Golba. 

I'm not sure I understand what they are going to search this week or why.  But I guess the ole "can't hurt, might help applies"?  And it is more and more bad publicity for the flyspeck Aruba.

[Nut44x4]

I am already sick of his Atty's crap....

LIMA, Peru, June 7, 2010
Van der Sloot Was to Turn Self In, Lawyer Claims
But Suspect Was Arrested Before He Got to, CBS News Is Told; He Faces Week of Grilling in Peruvian Police Headquarters

(CBS/ AP)  Joran van der Sloot intended to surrender but was arrested before he was able to, according to his Dutch lawyer.

Van der Sloot will spend all week at criminal police headquarters in Lima being questioned in the death of a 21-year-old Lima woman and has asked to be able to hire his own lawyer in Peru, authorities said Sunday.

snipped

Van der Sloot crossed into Chile last Monday, where he was arrested three days later.

But, reports CBS News Correspondent Jeff Glor, van der Sloot's lawyer in Holland contends van der Sloot was going to surrender.

Bert de Rooij told CBS News, "Just before he got arrested he e-mailed me that he would give himself in in the police station of Santiago, Chile, just before this he was arrested."

Police released video Saturday taken by security cameras at the hotel where van der Sloot had been staying since arriving from Colombia on May 14. It shows the two entering van der Sloot's room together and the Dutchman leaving alone four hours later, carrying two bags.

The woman's battered body was found on the room's floor more than two days later. Authorities say her neck was broken.

"The only possessions of my daughter they found were her empty wallet and her cell phone," her father, circus empresario Ricardo Flores, said in TV interview Sunday night. "There wasn't a peso in her wallet."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/07/earlyshow/main6556483.shtml

[klaasend]

Anyone have any thoughts on how you think Anita will handle the latest with Joran, now that she doesn't have Paulus to help?

Wonder if she'll have a breakdown or if one of Paulus' old friends that are familiar with law will end up helping/guiding her?

I think she'll react one of two ways

#1  Like Cindy Anthony and stand by her monster no matter what

#2  Pretend to the world that nothing has happened, go on with her life, post on Facebook, etc much like after the monster's father died

[Anna]

Nut, Yeah and he bleached his hair so he would look extra nice for his surrender, I suppose.

Yes, I am already sixck of the sounds cxoming out of The Netherlands on this completely.

They need to realize that not everybody is more concerned with the rights of the criminal instead of the victim as they are.  We do understand their system and that's it.  Protect their own citizen and to hell with the victims.

[Anna]

Joran's lawyer and whomever is speaking for the Dutch embassy must be sociopaths just as Joran is if they think we believe their lies.  It has always amazed me how Joran so expects to be believed when he is not even a good liar and any 9 year old could tell he is lying.

Guess he found a lawyer just like himself.  Joran wanted to get to Santiago to blend in long enough to catch a flight to Suriname or some other Dutch protectorate so they could refuse to extradite him.

We are not nearly as stupid as some think we are.   And yeah, I am sure the lawyer told Joran to email him and say that but I don't believe Joran meant it for one minute and doubt that his lawyer even told him to really surrender. 

Lawyer probably said something like:  I have to tell you to surrender so send me an email that you will do that then run like hell for any Dutch territory you can get to before they can stop you.

[Rob]

Rob, As you may already know, I am not convinced that was Natalee's remains in the fish trap.  I just don't know one way or the other.  Not a popular position to hold on this forum but I'm used to that from not believing the Lorenzo connection.

If that was Natalee in the trap, why wouldn't ALE have just removed any remains before the dive crew arrived?  I think they would have.  And they certainly would not have been providing coordinates if there was anything to be found.

But since ALE absconded with the contents, no one can know for sure, IMO.  But it has never made sense to me that ALE would say to dive there if there was really anything to be found.  Not their MO.

As for this witness and the pond, I thought as you did that this had already been checked by Golba. 

I'm not sure I understand what they are going to search this week or why.  But I guess the ole "can't hurt, might help applies"?  And it is more and more bad publicity for the flyspeck Aruba.

mornin' Anna,

I understand your position, and I agree with it. I don't know fer a certainty who was in that trap. It just fits most of what we know, and many of the elements seem to be there from what we have seen. I would just say - it's the best chance to date.

There is nothing in the Monstraat pond - nothing. Searching it again says - Fred Golba is not reliable.

Funny how Paului's Suzuki was confiscated - he was seen near the McDonald's and that's down the street from Bubali.

And this new witness is not new at all - it's two years old and he's a liar. I have no idea why Tim clings to this person.

I read somewhere on here - the Arubans want to help with Stephany's case. Yeah sure, how about helping with Natalee's. Shouldn't that be your priority. And Aruban help translates into - muck that case up too.

Wanna help - give TJ Ward all the case files, let him and Harold Copus bisect them and see what they can find - pay all of their expenses and let's see where that goes. There are ways to resolve this. This we know.

[klaasend]

It gave me chills as well.  I am not a member of the 'club' she was forced to join, thankfully. The 'club' of family of missing and murdered children.   He made her life a living hell for a long time.  He really went all out to torture her.  Laughing all the way.

Yes he did! Beth said something similar to DeVries when she watched the video of Joran and Patrick. She said his life would be Hell from that point on. The "Midnight Express" prison was news to me.

I remember that interview, and the "living hell" part, but "Midnight Express" -- astonishing. This all just gets curiouser and curiouser.

The person doing a lot of editing to the Wiki is a member of RefugeesUnleashed, need I say more?