Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[Searching]

Does anyone know if a "date rape drug" has a hypnotic effect to where the user can pretty much be commanded to do anything?  

If so, that would account for the odd interaction between Joran and Stephany in the video at the hostel...earlier discussion was that it was odd that she just held her head down and there was no conversation going on between them.  

One theory I have is that Stephany was unaccustomed to going into a dive motel and was keeping her head low because of embarrassment.  I believe she was there to get her money and go.  If she was drugged, that could be another reason she was detached from Joran and the situation on cameras.  JMHO

My first thought when I saw Stephany in the hotel video was she looked embarrassed. I would think she was probably very recognizable considering who her father is. Maybe she didn't want to be seen recognized in the
hotel.......it looked more like a dump/dive than any hotel to me. From her father's own mouth, he said Stephany was raised only seeing the more wealthy ways of living. She would have been uncomfortable in such seedy accommodations.IMO

Question: Did Stephany's father say who was selling her a laptop. Was it Joran? Maybe that's how he got her up to his room. He said he gave her $1000 for it, but I couldn't translate if she was buying it from a person or a store.

I got the impression it was more like a business deal. It did not appear at all that it was a romantic involvement. I wondered if he lost money to her and she drove him there under the pretense he had money there to pay her. All accounts of him at the tournament was he was a "rail hanger" (not someone playing in the tournament), but there are a lot of "side games" at tournaments like that and it is my guess he lost money to her and lured her there to collect the money.

My guess is when he got her there he tired his usual forcible sex by having put the date rape drug in her drink and she did not react like he wanted so he killed her.

Those are my thoughts as well Turbo. Hello

[Tylergal]

I don't think the cover up will fall like a house of cards at all because no matter what is found to have happened, Aruba/Netherlands won't do anything to anybody no matter how badly the may have deliberately obstructed justice.

Aruba will say they are conducting an investigation and then do nothing or even say mistakes were made, what a shame and not do anything at all.  Not to anybody even if they participate to the extent of disposing of remains.

The only way I think anything would ever actually be done is for Interpol to do it and they have to be "invited" and we know Aruba will never do that nor will the Dutch order it done.  I wonder if the U.S. could ask for an Interpol investigation into corruption now with Aruba allowing Joran to sneak off the island with the extradition warrant due any day?

Are you kidding, Anna, are you forgetting who is at the DoJ right now?

[Puzzler]

Sorry if this has already been posted....part of the tape shows Stephany walking into the casino, and then shows Joran and Stephany walking out of the casino.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/37550183#37550183

[Northern Rose]

Permanently monitored Van der Sloot in the lockup Dirincri
A Dutchman police custody, alleged murderer of Stephany Flores, to prevent attempts against his life, during their stay in the lockup of Dirincri.

The alleged murderer of Stephany Flores, Dutchman Joran van der Sloot, is guarded 24 hours a day by a police officer to prevent impairment of its life.


RPP Police sources informed that while there has been no incident of this nature, the surveillance is permanent while detained in the lockup of Criminal Investigation Department (Dirincri).


It emerged that Van der Sloot is eating normally and is the same menu as the police.

The Dutchman has not made any request to their custodians but he has been worried.

http://www.rpp.com.pe/2010-06-07-vigilan-permanentemente-a-van-der-sloot-en-carceleta-de-la-dirincri-noticia_270511.html

[Northern Rose]

Joran Van der Sloot would be detained in the prison Piedras Gordas

According to experts, by the seriousness of crime and personal safety, the Dutchman should be confined in jail in Ancon.

For Wilfredo Pedraza former head of the National Penitentiary Institute, INPE, the alleged murderer of Stephany Flores, eligible to be admitted to the prison's maximum security Piedras Gordas at Ancon.

According to Pedraza Sierra, INPE, which will decide in coming weeks in what prison should be conducted abroad, discusses three considerations in deciding on the theme: the severity of the crime, his background and vocation of flight.

But the former head of the National Penitentiary Institute, there is a fundamental factor is taken into account in these cases and to ensure the personal safety of the accused.

http://www.24horas.com.pe/nacionales/1275933587.php

[Tamikosmom]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

CNN Larry King Live - February 7, 2008
 
BETH HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER:  When he imitates how Natalee was suffering through the seizures, well, Larry, within 48 hours of Natalee's disappearance on the island of Aruba, a lead detective, Dennis Jacobs (ph), first and only medical question he asked me was, does Natalee have a history of epilepsy or seizures. And I said, no, why would you ask that?
 
And he only asked me that once, and from there forward, three other detectives asked Natalee's step father probably a dozen times, Larry. Jug had to come to me six times and ask me if Natalee had a history of epilepsy or seizure. And I kept saying no, why do you keep asking us that? Why? So, it brought it full circle for us.
 
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0802/07/lkl.01.html

[MisGivings]

http://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/

Can someone please bring this over for me? Everytime I try to read it my browser shuts down. TIA

Joran Van der Sloot’s Body Language- Moist Eyes Do Not Remorse or Sadness But Stunned Look Shows How He Did Not Expect To Get Caught
June 6, 2010 - One Response

Any moist eyes you see on Potential serial killer, Joran Van de Sloot, (and I use the term potential serial killer because the definition of a serial killer is having three or more killings under their belt and in Joran’s case there are only two of which we know)  are not tears of remorse or sadness .

Instead, they are tears  which reveal his body’s adrenalin rush  in both the shock and excitement over the new situation where he is the focus of being captured for killing a young Peruvian woman, Stephanie Flores .

In fact that is why it has been reported that Joan looked stunned. He is no doubt in complete shock that he was caught. His narcissism would never allow him to imagine what the consequences would be if this happened to him.

The tears are due to his autonomic nervous system essentially taking over and expelling tears in his system. The reason I say this is because serial killers and would be serial killers have no emotion. They do not feel the same things as we who are not serial killers feel. They shallow affect, lack of empathy, incapacity for love, and a definite  lack of guilt or remorse. In essence Joran is not at all capable of normal emotions in relation to situational appropriate events.

BAD BODY LANGUAGE SIGNS FROM THE GET GO

When you look at the photo of Joran Van Der Sloot at the front desk to pick up his room key after a long night out with Ms. Flores in tow, there is the exact same sadistic smirk that he had when he told an undercover reporter that he killed another young woman, Natalie Holloway  him several years back.

The fact that Joran is walking in front of Ms. Flores  and doesn’t acknowledge her in the surveillance tapes  is not a good sign. It shows a detachment from her.

He doesn’t even look at her when he enters his room with her  which is also a bad sign as it shows he doesn’t care about her. There is not politeness of gentlemanly consideration of letting her enter the room ahead of him.

Once again it speaks to his extreme egocentric and narcissistic behavior ,which most psychopaths demonstrate.

CALM COOL AND COLLECTED AFTER LEAVING A MURDERED BODY IN THE ROOM

If you look at this surveillance photo of Joran leaving the hotel room 4 hours  after he allegedly killed this young  woman as he is dressed in a fresh set of clothes,  his demeanor shows a calmness. There is no muscle tension in his face whatsoever.

There is even that sick smirk on his face that we saw when he admitted  killing Natalie and when he got the key from the front desk four hours earlier when he knew exactly what he was going to do to unsuspecting Sephanie Flores.

There is no tension, or upset or nervous reaction in his gait as he leaves the hotel. His strike is calm and relaxed and not hurried, In fact  His  He looks like he was going for a stroll without a care in the world, carrying a bag and a backpack.

JORAN’S  EXCITEMENT KICKS IN  WHEN ON THE RUN

But he taxi drivers to whom Joran paid $640 to transport him from Lima to Vinya de Mar Chile where he was apprehended, reported that they noticed that their passenger showed signals of nervousness.

No doubt Joran  moved around and squirmed a lot in the back of the cab as he was reported to continuously chain smoke.

Even though they interpreted his behavior as nervous the truth was that Joran was no doubt more excited than nervous and all the extraneous  movement the cab drivers observed  was the result of his autonomic system taking over.

Joran was excited that he was on his way to getting away with yet another murder to satisfy his sick appetite.

JORAN ACTUALLY  BELIEVED HE COULD GET AWAY WITH MURDER

Joran’s narcissism and eccentricity allowed him to assume that he would get away with murder. He was so sure that he would not get caught that  didn’t even do anything to hide the brutally beaten body complete with the neck he snapped and broke. He didn’t even take the time to check out of the hotel. He just went on his merry way.

Why should he think of the consequences? Five years earlier, to the day, he got away with the murder of another young beautiful girl, Even though he was arrested repeatedly, he beat the system.

NO DADDY TO PROTECT AND  ENABLE JORAN


His father  Paulus also had his back at the time enabling him in his sickness. But now that daddy , who suddenly  died of a heart attack  four months earlier is gone, Joran has no one to cover for him or to tell him that he is loved unconditionally.

Perhaps Joran’s going out of his way to kill again had something to do with the recent death of his father. Since he cannot mourn  his father’s death because has no feelings, he  wants to feel something.

So he kills again to feel something, he kills to feel the excitement and the adrenalin rush he no doubt felt when he killed Natalie Hollyway.

PARADED AROUND TO REPORTERS


Three times, Joran  wearing a green  bullet proof vest,  was paraded around to hundreds of people, including reporters.

No doubt authorities wanted everyone to get a glimpse of this real live monster who killed a lovely innocent woman who did not deserve such a horrific fate.

JORAN DENIES KILLING STEPHANIE  FLORES

So now that daddy isn’t there to protect him, 22 year old Joran is reaching out to mommy as  told authorities to call his mother in Aruba. My heart does go out to his mother whom I am sure had no idea that she spawned a monster.

JORAN DENIES DENIES AND DENIES SOME MORE

Of course  Joran  denied any involvement in Stephanie’s death. Little does he know about the surveillance cameras. The fact that he didn’t check out yet left with his bags and belongings, and took a cab to Chile instead of to the airport and flying directly  to Argentina and his cropped short dyed red hair at attempts to disguise himself,  does not bode well for him.

Even one of the best defense lawyers Joe Tacaopina won’t be able to help him. Tacopina was heard on television shows saying how it is easy to blame Joran because he has a bullseye on his back from the Holloway incident. But no one will be able to defend Joran this time- especially in Peru.

JORAN’S NEW HOME FOR THE REST OF HIS PATHETIC LIFE


A Peruvian prison is not anyplace anyone would want to be, especially when they are only given on e blanket in the freezing cold of the Andes Mountains. Since Peru does not have the death sentence, the rest of Joran’s  life will be a living  hell.

Just ask former American college student  Lori Berenson who was accused of political activism in Peru. She spent  15 of the   best years of her life in this hell and she didn’t even  kill anyone.

So one can only imagine what will happen to Joran when he is locked up. The fact that he killed the daughter of a beloved national hero- a Peruvian race car driver and Presidential candidate  won’t sit well with prison guards and other prisoners. Neither will the fact that he is an outsider and a foreigner.

And let’s say he does get 30 years and is released when he is in his 50’s, no doubt he will be extradited  to the US where he will face extortion charges in Alabama and spend the remainder of his life in a US prison. He tried to extort $250,000 from  an associate of the Holloway family in exchange for revealing the whereabouts of Natalie.

One of Joran’s buddies  who was interviewed said he had a gambling and drug addiction. That is no doubt because those are the only times his adrenalin kicks in and he can feel anything. He also apparently has a killing young innocent women addiction which thankfully has come to an end. Now both Natalie and Stephanie can rest in peace!  wwdrlillianglass.com

Categorized in Criminal and body language
Tags: lillian glass, body language expert, psychology, sociopath, body language analyusis, Ricardo Fores Vasques, Natalie Holloway, Joran Van de Sloot, Paulus Van der Sloot, Joran van der Sloot's mother, Joran Van der sloot's father, Dr. Lillin Glass, psychopth, narcicissm, egocentic, serial killer, Vander sloot caught in oeru, Peruvian prison, Joran Van der Sloot;s Body Language, body languiage analysis

[Northern Rose]

Netherlands consider any official reaction if Joran Van der Sloot

According to published today Dutchman news portal "Radio Nederland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the European country would be studying a possible official reaction about how to proceed in Peru regarding the case of a suspect in the murder of Stephany Flores, Joran Van der Sloot .

According to the said medium, while the Netherlands embassy has protested the publication of material against the young accuser in Europe, "the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is considering a possible official reaction about how to proceed in Peru. A spokesman Foreign Affairs said: I posed the query to the ministry about how we must act. "

Radio Nederlands adds: "In principle, the Netherlands does not deal with the trials conducted in other countries, but it is possible that in this case there is reason to protest. The suspect, meanwhile, still claims his innocence in the death of Stephany Flores. "

The news portal reported some discomfort regarding the publication of information - as the first interrogation the accused - comunicacfión in several media, including internet.

Peru and the Netherlands have no extradition agreement that allows foreign defendants should be tried in their own country, even if you are negotiating for some time on a so-called WOTS agreement, which stipulates that the Dutchmen arrested in another country can fulfill its sentence in the Netherlands. It is unclear when it will reach an agreement.

"Even if such an agreement was closed after a conviction of Van der Sloot, the Dutchman could still benefit from it. The condition is that both countries had no objections and that the culprit himself would agree. It is too early to that if Peru would agree with that kind of extradition, "covered by that news portal.

http://tvperu.gob.pe/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1920

[klaasend]

http://www.larepublica.pe/pagina_impreso.php?pub=larepublica&anho=2010&mes=06&dia=07&pid=1&sec=01&pag=1

My copy is slightly different in the right hand corner.  Wonder if Joran was trying to pull a Mark Karr?

[Puzzler]

Former attorney questioned Joran van der Sloot tests involving the murder of Stephany Dutchman Flores (with video)

Joseph Tacopina hinted that a third person would be responsible for murder. Also expressed its surprise that the body has been found in the room just three days after the crime

"How do you know that inside the room there was no third person waiting for them?" Asked the renowned lawyer Joseph Tacopina to question one of the strongest proofs that involve the citizen Dutchman Joran van der Sloot in the murder of the young Stephany Flores occurred on Sunday 30 May.

Joseph Tacopina, who successfully defended Van der Sloot in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway American girl five years ago, referred to the fact that the Dutchman admitted with Stephany Flores Tac Miraflores hotel early 30 May, but was only hours later, according to security video showed the accommodation.

Thus, the lawyer also defended the late King of Pop Michael Jackson hinted that a third person would be responsible for crime.

In a telephone conversation from New York with the TV program "Panorama", Joseph Tacopina also expressed surprise at the time that passed between the alleged day of the murder and the discovery of the body of Stephany.

More soon ....

http://elcomercio.pe/noticia/490841/ex-abogado-joran-cuestiona-pruebas-que-involucran-holandes-asesinato-stephany

Poor Joey .... He just won't admit he knows Joran is a killer...even when he is not representing him..... pathetic. Joey, WE may not know who was in the room, but you can bet your boots w/ a camera that close to the door -- that the authorities know how many people went in and out of that room Joey, ya make me want to puke.......

Joe might change his mind if Julia and Dan do not come up with some money.

Joe, the reason we know that no third person was waiting in the room is that no one but Joran left the room...no one...

[Tylergal]

Joran more likely attempted sex (she was found in her underwear) but Stephany fought him...resisted him.  We know from his talking to the guy from PR earlier in the evening that Joran was looking to pick up a female.  The resistance could have been the trigger for the rage.

I just can't help but think that a very similar occurance happened between Joran and Natalee. I'm sure most monkeys know this, but as a reminder, in reading about date rape drugs this evening, on of the possible effects is "seizures".

No seizure disorder.  Beth wondered why she was queried about Natalee possibly having a seizure disorder.
If I remember correctly puzzler, Natalie's mother stated one time that she had a seizure disorder. If that is right then stress or fear may have triggered a seizure for her and not the drug.

[RoxiBalboa]

lol Klaas

[Tylergal]

I'm not sure that this type of link works for videos, but MSNBC has some interesting stuff I haven't seen. I didn't listen, but the visuals are interesting and INCLUDE Natalee and Paulus at the same table in the casino, and a bare-chested Joran getting a medical once-over, I guess.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37550183#37550183

Tyler - Turns out Beth did tell Greta, Nov. 2008, that she would be good with a "Midnight Express" type prison anywhere. (Not exact words.) I can't take time to find it right now, but it is so strange given this turn of events.

And Hi! Nice to see you.

Yes, I saw that later.  I still take Wiki with a grain of salt.  There is far more propaganda there than truth.  It's the revisionist history book.  good to see you as well.  been a long time... 

[Northern Rose]

Four police officers watch over Joran van der Sloot is not to kill
Alleged murderer of Stephany Flores asked that his lawyer is Dutchman. He shares his cell with another prisoner for murder


The Dutchman citizen Joran van der Sloot (22), alleged murderer of Stephany Flores Ramirez (21), daughter of businessman Ricardo Flores, said yesterday its intention to have a lawyer of his country to assume its defense.

Dirincri fonts, whose headquarters Joran van der Sloot is being held since last Saturday, after being expelled from Chile, said that while the public prosecutor appointed counsel Luisa Camargo Rosa Madrid as his defender, Dutchman forward to insist with the consulate of your country to provide him a lawyer of his nationality.

"As happened in Chile, here have been representatives of the consulate, but it is unknown if they will assist you in any way," he revealed.

PERMANENT MONITORING
Four police officers guard the Van der Sloot in jail the police building on Av Spain (Cercado de Lima), for provision of permanent presiding judge Romulo Chira Cabezas, will occupy for a semana.Se knew who fear being killed or suicide, according to the Trome. Learned that ate the food (Andean Potatoes and fried chicken) that agents served and rested without fear. He shares his cell with another inmate. Yesterday was also known to be butted against one wall of the elevator that led to the eighth floor of the Dirincri.

This fact is important for researchers, as well as the Dutchman can not appeal to fatigue not to cooperate with the investigation, as it did last Saturday.

A police video broadcast on American TV showed that the suspect is fluent in Castilian, from which it follows that the research would be unnecessary delay in the absence of a translator.

The images in question were recorded in the police station in Santa Rosa, Tacna border with Chile.

The case went to social networks
The case of Stephany Flores joined the Facebook social network via a public profile on behalf of Joran van der Sloot. The profile, with more than 439 followers to 6 pm yesterday, including press clippings, videos and comments in several languages against the prime suspect of the crime of Stephany. Also included statements of support for Van der Sloot.

http://elcomercio.pe/noticia/491042/cuatro-policias-vigilan-joran-van-der-sloot-que-no-se-mate

[Northern Rose]

Reported this morning:

Joran is asking for mineral water
Joran is under permanent 24/7 watch
Joran has demonstrated perfect Castilian and therefore no delay for a translator is required
Joran is insisting on the consulate to appoint him a Dutch Attorney
Dutch Consulate has visited him in Peru as well as Chile
Anita has not surfaced yet but I hope the Shamans have some special voodoo dolls for when she surfaces

[Tylergal]

Reported this morning:

Joran is asking for mineral water
Joran is under permanent 24/7 watch
Joran has demonstrated perfect Castilian and therefore no delay for a translator is required
Joran is insisting on the consulate to appoint him a Dutch Attorney
Dutch Consulate has visited him in Peru as well as Chile
Anita has not surfaced yet but I hope the Shamans have some special voodoo dolls for when she surfaces

The director is somewhere in the background pulling the strings, as always and did she know about Natalee?  Of course, she knew.  That is the reason for the phone call to her from Paulus when she was still in the NL, to return and keep her mouth shut.  It was a heads-up and from that point on, Joran shut down and never talked again after admitting to killing Natalee and everyone going to the lighthouse just before that.  Oh, yes and remember how the little strawberry-blond female Hitler got busy in New York trying to prevent Joran being confronted by Bo Dietel?

[Tamikosmom]

I pray the family of Natalee Holloway is not on another emotional roller coaster ... compliments of Aruba/Dutch involvement in the Peruvian investigation of Joran van der Sloots latest victim.

Does the Dutch Embassy advocate to such an extent for all Dutch citizens who are detained on suspicion of committing a crime in Peru?

Does the Peruvian interior minister instruct authories on all cases not to release information without his permission? 

Janet

+++++++

Van der Sloot seeks own lawyer in murder case
Peru police expected to interrogate him all week in girl's death
updated 2 hours, 18 minutes ago

Dutch Embassy chief consular officer Angela Lowe said her government was providing van der Sloot with "regular consular assistance, which means an occasional consular visit, and we will make sure he is being treated decently, just like any other inmate." ....

Van der Sloot is one of 117 Dutch citizens currently in Peruvian jails or prisons, most of them on drug-related charges, Lowe said.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8032.100


Van der Sloot remains jailed as murder investigation continues
June 6, 2010 9:39 p.m. EDT

The Embassy has told Peruvian authorities that it is not comfortable with the way van der Sloot has been presented to the media, Neyra said.

The Peruvian interior minister is asking authorities not to talk about the case without his authorization.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/06/peru.murder.case/index.html?hpt=Sbin

[Northern Rose]

PNP: Van der Sloot would have killed for money Stephany

Researchers at the Homicide Division of the National Police are almost convinced that the murder of the young Stephany Ramirez Flores, daughter of businessman and racer Ricardo Flores "rifle" would have been the money.
What would have happened, as reported by La Republica newspaper today, is that after being seduced by the Dutchman Joran van der Sloot, prime suspect in her death, allegedly forced the girl to make withdrawals from any cash or bank transfer. Decline was probably beaten to death.

"The Dutchman suspected psychopath fled with only the money he found at hand," said an officer whose identity the newspaper did not identify.

According to the Penal Code, if Van der Sloot tried to steal using violence, triggering the death of Stephanie, could receive life imprisonment. If one is accused of murder, the penalty can be up to 35 years in prison.

On the other hand, the publication indicates that has not yet detected the presence of alcohol or drugs in the body of the victim, although all seem to indicate that she was lucid when he was killed.

Forensic experts found further that the victim had consumed a quantity of alcohol enough to be defenseless against an attack.

http://www.terra.com.pe/noticias/noticias/act2363943/pnp-van-der-sloot-habria-asesinado-stephany-por-dinero.html

[2NJSons_Mom]

[seemeatthebeach]

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/more-pics-from-peru-joran-van-der-sloot-accused-of-murder/