Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[Puzzler]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/6/7/153936/3294

Joran Van der Sloot: More Conflicting Reports
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 02:39:36 PM EST



I'm still following the confusing reports from Peru on Joran Van der Sloot. My Spanish is getting better by the day because the Google and other online translators are pretty awful, and I've found that by reading the Spanish, I get a more accurate sense, even accounting for the words I don't know. Also, their pronouns are often wrong and in the wrong place making it hard to figure out who they are talking about. It's clearer to me reading the Spanish.

That said, while I can understand most of the written Spanish, I'm not able to translate it into English, so especially when pressed for time (like now) I may move to summaries, with links to the Spanish. From what I gather today: [More..]

La Repbulica (Google Translation here): The police now think robbery was the motive, they are checking her bank accounts for transfers (although other articles speculate it was her refusal to do a transfer that caused her murder.)

They are in possession of and checking both their cell phones as to numbers called to and from the phones. They may take Joran back to the hotel to retrace his steps and they continue to interview the hotel employees. It's also reported Stephany's wallet and credit cards were found with her body. (If her credit cards were there, doesn't that refute a robbery motive?) There are still conflicting reports on whether her jewelry was found, if she wore any.

Reports remain confusing as to poker player Elton Garcia. I'd say his story doesn't add up but there are so many inconsistencies, it may just be his statements are being incorrectly reported. E.g., if they weren't friends, why did they make plans 3 days in advance to meet at a certain restaurant for dinner? Why was he so concerned about Joran not showing that he feared he and Stephany had been kidnapped, and why was he so worried he asked the casino manager to call the hotel or check the casino videos? If he was staying at the same hotel as Joran, why didn't he ask himself? And how did he already know Stephany was missing?

Another curios note: Joran's number was stored in his phone. (One report says he told police he did that unintentionally when he received a call from Joran, who got his number from another poker player.)

Reports vary about the last night. Some have Elton, Joran and Stephany playing poker together at an open table from 3:20 am, when she arrived at the casino alone, until 5:00 a.m. when Joran and Stephanie left together, with Stephanie driving them to the hotel -- to those saying Elton just saw Stephany and Joran playing at an open table.

As mentioned, it's been reported by multiple publications Elton was staying at the same hotel as Joran. His story makes more sense if he wasn't staying at the same hotel. Maybe those reports are wrong. And if not, what time did he get back to the hotel that morning?

Some reports have Elton saying he played poker with Stephany four times in May. Some say he played with Stephany and Joran. Other reports have him saying he never met Joran, just knew him by sight. (But they were meeting for dinner?)

He refused to tell police Stephany had won $5,000. the night she disappeared, only that she had won $2,000. from him earlier in the month.

It sounds to me like Stephany knew both Elton and Joran and they had played together before and played together that night. But again, it's hard to tell from the conflicting reports.

The bigger question, given the speculation of robbery as a motive, is did Joran lose, and ask Stephany to drive him back to his hotel so he could get her the money? Or Did Stephany lose and Joran asked her to make a bank transfer to pay him, using a computer back at his room? And doesn't the casino have videotapes of all the tables? Wouldn't the tapes show who won and who lost?

Back to news: the ex-Director of NPI (which seems to be the equivalent of our Bureau of Prisons) says Joran will not be going to Miguel Castro Castro prison (as the Peruvian press reported yesterday.) (Google translation here.)He says Miguel Castro Castro is not secure enough to protect him. He believes Joran is likely to go to another maximum security prison in Piedras Gordas.

If Joran does go to Miguel Castro Castro, I hope he doesn't try to escape. There are a lot of land mines around the prison, courtesy of the old Peruvian government. Last month, the U.S. agreed to give Peru almost $3 million to remove some that are still there.

He's being closely guarded to make sure he doesn't attempt suicide. (Apparently, he hit his head against the wall of an elevator and they are taking that as a suicide attempt. I doubt it. No way would he be in an elevator alone and I doubt you kill yourself that way. Maybe it's a story to cover up that someone else bashed his head into the wall of an elevator?)

A Peruvian lawyer, Rosa Luisa Camargo, has been appointed for him, but the Republica reports he now wants a Dutch lawyer. The opposite was reported yesterday.

I haven't checked the wires in an hour or so and they change fast. Maybe some of these questions have been answered. What doesn't add up to you about the reports?

thanks cece.....a lot doesn't add up.......too much....we had dinner last night with a couple, the husband is a retired detective. He has been following the case and has a lot of questions and a lot of things that didn;t added up to him. It was interesting to hear him talk about what he would do.  He thinks perhaps a spurned lover of Stephany killed her in a jealous rage, after joran did leave her sleeping. I asked why hasn't the hotel clerk said someone else came.....he said yes, WHY?  OR a kidnapping gone wrong.....someone at the recognized Stephany....then joran leave her alone sleeping in the room.....someone from the hotel calls to tell whoever that she is there and alone.....a kidnapping gone bad??    From what he has read the clerk was scared chitless and would say whatever she was told to or she was that someone.  So joran left and said something about not disturbing his girl...per the clerk. Where is the video tape of joran leaving and returning with the coffee.   If he was running why didn't he take his passport? and all his money and credit cards?  Lots of stuff like that....it made for very interesting dinner conversation!!!

But he took her car.  That tells me that he knew she was dead when he left.

Do we know he took her car??  Another one of those reports......the car was 50 blocks from the hotel.....someone took it.....I hope there is some surveillance tapes with whoever took it or dropped it off.  I'd also like to know what is in the area where it was found??  Was it near where joran got the taxi??

Well, there was a report that Joran had her keys.  A lot wasn't made of it, but it was said that he had her keys and that he had left the car 50 blocks away in a very sleezy part of town.

Also, it's been reported that from the time that Joran and Stephany went into his room, until the time that Joran left with his bags the only person who entered or left the room was Joran and that once Joran left with his bags until the body was found...no other person entered or left the room. So, with having the video tape to check out who entered and left the room and there being bars on the windows it leaves:  Joran and Stephany entered his room; Joran left.

With what we know right now it seems like solid evidence.  If there lab work indicates Joran's DNA under Stephany's fingernails or her blood on his shirt, that's the total end of it.

In fact, that there's a 3-judge panel (no jury) and requiring a preponderence of evidence (not a reasonable doubt) makes it seem like LE will have more that one avenue to get Joran convicted on.

Like I said, that's based on what we know now (very fluid).

[SunnyinTX]

Has anyone found the video of joran's first hearing?  I have seen several references to it being out on the Internet, but I have not found it??

I haven't seen it either Sunny.  Unless what they are calling the "first hearing" was the video of them going through his possessions & doing the medical, etc?

that was yesterday....I have read several times there was a hearing today...but again, it could be a translation error.

[SunnyinTX]

GRETA SAID WHAT ?!?

Anna writes: "You may have to ban Greta, too.  She was just on TV saying that it was the mioney extorted from Beth that enabled Joran to go to Peru!"

Greta said that?

A bit stunning.  You may remember, years ago here in the US there was a movement to open to liability the manufacturers of guns and ammunition -- on the basis that they sold the means for criminals to commit lethal crimes.

It went nowhere because it is illogical.  As is Greta's strange comment.

.

her reasoning skills have sharply diminished. Or she was kicked in the head by a Clydesdale.

Plus I'm tired of watching her dress in boy's clothes, size six.

And I hate her pennyloafers.

Agree, Rob.  Greta has a couple of sons.  I think she saved their clothing from when they were six years old and that is now her wardrobe.  Shoes included.

Oh....I thought Greta didn't have any children...

she doesn't

[darleenofalabama]

I looked at the pictures of that murderer being examined and it looks to my nursing assessment eye that he has fresh trauma, scratches/new bruising on his upper chest.  And what is all this looking upward he's doing in those pictures; I don't think he's going to find his lying, murder accomplice, murder covering-up daddy in that direction.

[SunnyinTX]

Has anyone found the video of joran's first hearing?  I have seen several references to it being out on the Internet, but I have not found it??

I haven't seen it either Sunny.  Unless what they are calling the "first hearing" was the video of them going through his possessions & doing the medical, etc?

...and that's another thing that confuses me.  In this country, once someone is arrested, they don't get to riffle through their own stuff.  They are entered into evidence, and one would get possession of it after they are either aquitted, or serve their time.  Maybe it's just me though...

Thoughts?

and then the police also examine the items without gloves....

[Nut44x4]

snipped.....
Rob, you will get no takers on that!!  I 'know in my heart' that someone 'in the know' in Aruba told him to get the hell outta dodge....perhaps because that someone knew the FBI was getting ready to ask for his arrest/detention. JMO and I don't think anyone can change my mind

Oh Sunny.....that absolutely happened....no doubt in any Monkeys mind. He did leave wayyyyyyy before the Peru Tournament.

[cece]

Well, I AM letting my hopes get up again.  Even though they've been dashed so many times before over the last 5 years. I again choose to believe that this time, justice will prevail.

I don't accept the notion that the Peruvians give a flying flip what the Dutch think about their justice system.  I believe they care much, much more about their own countryman and his family, his daughter.

I do not believe that the corrupt Dutch nor the corrupt Arubans will be able to stand between Joran van der Death and his fate this time.

This really is the beginning of the end.  I believe.

::happy dancing monkey::

Count me in!!! 

[thirdstrike]

Wait, I'm confused.  Riddle me this, Batman...It's quite obvious that they have clear surviellance tapes of his entering and leaving the hotel room.  Am I correct there?  If that's the case, isn't it as simple as them both entering togetrher, and him leaving alone?  There is no other signs of anyone else entering the room.  Again, am I correct there?  If that's the case, how can it even be argued that he committed this act?  Again, if what I said is true, that's all one would need to convict...right?  Even Aruba couldn't f*** this one up...

Hi there, Third,

Yes, you are correct.  Anyone else entering that room would appeat on the digital tapes just as Joran and Stephany did.  Mark Furman said there are bars on the outside of the windows and so no one could possibly enter through a window either.

I don't know how anybody could say someone else was involved.  The coroner has set the time of death as during the time Joran was in the room based on decomp.

It's open and shut to me as well, don't understand the conflict there at all.

Maybe someone entering the room wouldn't show up on camera if they were a vampire, lol.  But I think we are getting pretty far out there.  16 camera bank of security vids and it's all tied down as to who came and went.

Two went in, one came out.

Hey Anna! 

That's what I'm saying.  That is why I am not even the slightest bit worried about another "Aruban investigation" problem happenening this time around.  Again, unless the guy is in the new "Twilight" movie and can shape-shift, there's no explaining away him and her entering, but only him exiting.  This isn't the game "Clue".  We have indisputable eveidence there alone.  There is absolutely no way it can be ignored.  They entered, he beat her to death, and he exited.  I don't care what RU, or Ren-Ho, or any one of his supporters say.  It's like the O.J. case.  I guage those who say he's innocent to be quite frankly dumb and without logic thinking capabilities.  Anyone who even argues his innocence should be considered the same...

[Tylergal]

One thing I have learned from watching these diabolical cretins over there years - whatever the situation, make it happen.

He's mentally deranged - out come all of Joran psych records dating back to when he was a lil boy.

He's a sporter - out come the tennis tournaments.

He's a terrific student - out comes people sayin' he's a wonderful student and way above average.

He's no rapist - out comes the mother to say how loving he is with all his girlfriends.

He has dreams and wants to go to college - away he goes to Holland to fulfill his dreams.

He doesn't gamble, doesn't smoke, doesn't do drugs ....

nevermind none of that was even remotely true. None.

no matter what the story, no matter what the situation - there is always something to say otherwise, who cares if anyone believes
it or if there is any evidence to support it.

You know I don't have any love lost or found for Aruba, but there were as many or more cretins in the USA, who stood to profit from Joran's "innocence" as there were Arubans, perhaps more.  Enter Joe Tacopino and who paid that dead lice on the back of rigor mortise.  Where are the Joisey folks, the evil politicians of Chicago and fast Eddie's of Pennsylvania and thugmovers of Miami who contributed to the idea that the sporter was an innocent young man and Beth was the evil witch.  Who perpetrated this?  A couple of old ex-patriots whose backsides look like that baboon posted here earlier.

[JE]

Wait, I'm confused.  Riddle me this, Batman...It's quite obvious that they have clear surviellance tapes of his entering and leaving the hotel room.  Am I correct there?  If that's the case, isn't it as simple as them both entering togetrher, and him leaving alone?  There is no other signs of anyone else entering the room.  Again, am I correct there?  If that's the case, how can it even be argued that he committed this act?  Again, if what I said is true, that's all one would need to convict...right?  Even Aruba couldn't f*** this one up...

Hi there, Third,

Yes, you are correct.  Anyone else entering that room would appeat on the digital tapes just as Joran and Stephany did.  Mark Furman said there are bars on the outside of the windows and so no one could possibly enter through a window either.

I don't know how anybody could say someone else was involved.  The coroner has set the time of death as during the time Joran was in the room based on decomp.

It's open and shut to me as well, don't understand the conflict there at all.

Maybe someone entering the room wouldn't show up on camera if they were a vampire, lol.  But I think we are getting pretty far out there.  16 camera bank of security vids and it's all tied down as to who came and went.

Two went in, one came out.

Video camera's just like cell phones or corded phones can be tapped into, and information from these devices can be tampered with. I'm sure the defence will use something along those lines. The images may be supportive evindence but i'm affraid that no judge would pass sentence based on those images alone. Blood on clothing found in his possesion with dna matching the victim would be a lot more helpfull. As for the bars on the windows, I'm sure Joe Tacopina is researching the capabilities of ninja contortionists as we speak.

[klaasend]

I looked at the pictures of that murderer being examined and it looks to my nursing assessment eye that he has fresh trauma, scratches/new bruising on his upper chest.  And what is all this looking upward he's doing in those pictures; I don't think he's going to find his lying, murder accomplice, murder covering-up daddy in that direction.

Good one Darleen!  LOL

[darleenofalabama]

And so what if he wants a lawyer from the Netherlands.  He's not in the Netherlands anymore.  Who's going to pay for that?  I don't think his mother will; as far as I know, she hasn't even bought a ticket to go visit him--although she's surely heard that he's crying for her.  And the Refugees aren't going to do it; I heard that their management told them to cease and desist using that site to raise money for him.  I don't think he really ever had any support not attached to his daddy who can't help him now...

[wingnut]

Every crime leaves behind evidence.

In 2005, Joran had the benefit of home-town cooking. His well-connected father was instrumental in making the evidence disappear, with help from his associates.  Unfortunately, law enforcement became more concerned with hiding the crime and was driven by protecting their tourism dollars. The game was rigged as justice could never be attained for a poor family, who only sought a proper burial for their deceased daughter.

Fast forward the clock 5 years to the year 2010. A crime has been committed on foreign soil. Same as before, evidence exists. Unlike 2005, there will be no one there to make it disappear. No doubt about it, the case files will contain surveillance footage from the casino, exiting the casino, entering the hotel with SF, exiting the hote; without SF a few hours later, a coroner's report of an estimated time of death, toxicology reports, bloody shoe prints, victim blood on Joran, murder weapon, DNA evidence, laptop, and much more.

Too bad for Joran, there will be no bottomless evidence drawer, no 10 day head start, no false arrests, no Jan Van derStraaten, no disinformation campaign, no witness intimidation, no judicial friends and favors, no new concrete around the pool, no new furniture, no CAPSLOCKWIZARD, no cell phone in jail, nor a lot of other unmentioned perks.

A foreign (Dutch/Aruban) citizen enters Peru and commits a heinous crime against the daughter of a well-known Peruvian citizen. They will ensure a fair trial for Joran, according to acceptable standards. He will pay for this crime. Law enforcement is taking it serious. Joran VanderSloot is no one special to them, just a foreigner who has committed a crime against one of its own.

Behind the scenes, due to his notoriety, his (soon-to-be) new roomates at jail facility probably have some surprises in store for him. Might even include a new game or two (Drop the Soap, etc). He is going to pay a dear price for his latest actions.

Just my humble opinions...

I agree with your opinion.  NO WAY the Peruvians are going to go soft on him.  No way.  He got cocky, thinking the world was his oyster.  He committed this crime in South America.  These people will want his blood.  And they will get it.  MY opinion.

[SunnyinTX]

I think everyone is getting a little too excited about these conflicting reports regarding this case.  Believe you me, this guy is going to DIE in a Peruvian Prison.  There is no way the Dutch or anyone else will be able to manipulate the system the way the Arubans have in the past.  And if what I hear is true about the bloody clothes they found in his bag, he's dead to rights with regards to his guilt...

Let's all take a deep breath and celebrate what's going on right now in Peru.  It's the beginning of the end for dear old Joran!!

I, for one am not getting excited, TS...but it does make me wonder what the truth is....I can't believe he had bloody clothes in his bag....he had ample time to get rid any any evidence like that....including the tennis racket. I am not as sure as your are about the Dutch not being able to manipulate the system. I just want the truth and so far I do not believe we are hearing the whole truth....so I will wait.

Maybe this will shed some light....I read that they found blood on Joran's shirt using Luminol. 
Sounds to me like he washed the blood out of the shirt (or thought he did, probably dried it with a hair dryer) and took it with him.  We all know that even if there's the tiniest trace of blood (not even visible to the naked eye), that Luminol will show up. 

As always, Joran thinks he can outsmart anyone...heck...he probably never thought he would get picked up.

Luminol....

Puzzler, thanks I read that as well....but I still haven't seen anything official. Just like I hear her jewelry was all missing and the video I watch a moment ago said it was on her still.....

[Puzzler]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I thought it was footboard as the mattress is in a sort of wooden box.  One of the corners of that box, head or foot, is where her head was hit.  Allegedly.

Yes, something like European box springs - made out of wood - that the mattress lies on.
Mattress was pushed aside at upper corner of bed (maybe translated as headboard) and something happened there...another area of blood discovered by Luminol.  Mark Furhman said he talked with the coroner and was told that if the bed was the cause of the fatal blow it wouldn't have happened by Stephany falling down...that kind of would would have been made by extreme force and pushing her head onto the bed.   Then it came out that a tennis racquet could have been used and it's being tested, too. 

Like Anna said, it appears that there's a few more days to get in test results to answer some of the questions.

[SunnyinTX]

There has been no news conference from the Preuvians as yet so no offical statement on anything.  I don't expect one for this first week of interrogations.  They are trying to get the story straight and give Joran a chance to clear up any questions.  When and if he is unable to do so, they will make an official statement and not before.

What information we are getting is from various reporters, most of whom do not speak Spanish and are not very careful about their facts.

So as yet, there is no official storyline.  There won't be for several more days.  We just have to try to patch together what we can from the media coverage which may or may not be correct.

Of course, we all want a straight and simple answer but think we have a few more days yet to go for that.

Anna, I agree with you totally.  So we wait. 

[Tylergal]

And so what if he wants a lawyer from the Netherlands.  He's not in the Netherlands anymore.  Who's going to pay for that?  I don't think his mother will; as far as I know, she hasn't even bought a ticket to go visit him--although she's surely heard that he's crying for her.  And the Refugees aren't going to do it; I heard that their management told them to cease and desist using that site to raise money for him.  I don't think he really ever had any support not attached to his daddy who can't help him now...

There is probably a whole host of people in the Netherlands and Aruba who would come to his rescue monetarily as there was a lot of coverup and someone is going to pay through the nose if that is uncovered, so someone will pay for this just to continue the coverup.  No one wants to be his cell mate.

[Port Valerie]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I think there's been a lot of translation confusion.  I don't think they ever said she hit her head on a headboard for sure, I think someone was guessing she could have. 

It's my understanding they are saying the weapon was a racquet. 

There is a headboard in the room of the same type, shown in the brochure. Might be where I got the idea, tho someone did suggest she might have hit her head on one. All speculation, as you say. (Looking at the brochure again, I see that Joran did not pay for the room with the heart-shaped hot tub in the room. Yes, he must be broke.)

http://www.guiahostal.com/lima/hotel_tac.htm

[SunnyinTX]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I think there's been a lot of translation confusion.  I don't think they ever said she hit her head on a headboard for sure, I think someone was guessing she could have. 

It's my understanding they are saying the weapon was a racquet. 

Klaas, you are so right....I think the various translations are not only confusing but imparting misinformation.....the racquet was originally a bat...her jeans became a skirt, the multiple stab wounds disappeared and now it is a sever beating and broken neck..one think we do know....she died at the hands of another person. Gone too soon.

[cece]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I think there's been a lot of translation confusion.  I don't think they ever said she hit her head on a headboard for sure, I think someone was guessing she could have. 

It's my understanding they are saying the weapon was a racquet. 

There is a headboard in the room of the same type, shown in the brochure. Might be where I got the idea, tho someone did suggest she might have hit her head on one. All speculation, as you say. (Looking at the brochure again, I see that Joran did not pay for the room with the heart-shaped hot tub in the room. Yes, he must be broke.)

http://www.guiahostal.com/lima/hotel_tac.htm