Natalee Case Discussion #835 6/6/10 - 6/8/10

[MuffyBee]

Has anyone found the video of joran's first hearing?  I have seen several references to it being out on the Internet, but I have not found it??

I haven't seen it either Sunny.  Unless what they are calling the "first hearing" was the video of them going through his possessions & doing the medical, etc?

...and that's another thing that confuses me.  In this country, once someone is arrested, they don't get to riffle through their own stuff.  They are entered into evidence, and one would get possession of it after they are either aquitted, or serve their time.  Maybe it's just me though...

Thoughts?

Hi Third (Waving)  Did you notice LE had Joran count out the money, and then they counted it out too?  And all of his personal effects were taken out and looked at and probably cataloged.  And all of that was on film.  I think this was all done so Joran couldn't go back and say he had a different amount of money or anything was missing. And it can be see what he had for use as evidence against him if possible.   I think LE is being careful and making an inventory and documenting everything.  JMHO

[klaasend]

Peter R de Vries on tv right now.
He was on vacation when he heard about the case.
He thinks it's remarkable that Joran was paraded around before the press, but that's just common practice in Peru. In the Netherlands the trial would be void if that happened.
The hotel footage is very incriminating if indeed that is the only footage.
There is no indication that someone else was in the room. Or Joran would have to make up a story of someone hiding under the bed or something.
Joran was in a lot of debt (gambling).
For the last two years he has been begging for money from family, friends. Always coming up with heartbreaking excuses why he needed money (lost his wallet, passport)
Peter has the MSN-log of Joran and a friend in the Netherlands.
Again desperately begging for money to buy food.
MSN log with freind in Holland.
In Peter's opinion this was not a sexual offence but it was all about taking Stephany's money.
She probably said no, and that's when he snapped.

Says Beth Holloway is overwhelmed about what's happening in Peru and the similarities between the two cases.
Joran will only reveal more details about Natalee for his own gain, in order to try and make a deal.
But only for opportunistic reasons.

Peter says he's a psychopath, a narcisist.

The host asks if he is still in contact with Joran's family.
He says no, I'm not very popular with them.

Our MP is on the talkshow as well and says that Joran will be treated like all Dutch people who are detained abroad.
No special treatment for him.

Thank you!

[SunnyinTX]

I think everyone is getting a little too excited about these conflicting reports regarding this case.  Believe you me, this guy is going to DIE in a Peruvian Prison.  There is no way the Dutch or anyone else will be able to manipulate the system the way the Arubans have in the past.  And if what I hear is true about the bloody clothes they found in his bag, he's dead to rights with regards to his guilt...

Let's all take a deep breath and celebrate what's going on right now in Peru.  It's the beginning of the end for dear old Joran!!

I, for one am not getting excited, TS...but it does make me wonder what the truth is....I can't believe he had bloody clothes in his bag....he had ample time to get rid any any evidence like that....including the tennis racket. I am not as sure as your are about the Dutch not being able to manipulate the system. I just want the truth and so far I do not believe we are hearing the whole truth....so I will wait.

[klaasend]

http://gretawire.blogs.foxnews.com/pics-of-the-room-where-joran-is-being-held/
June 7, 2010 | 2:51 PM ET
Pics of the room in the hotel where Joran stayed - the room is similar to the one where murder

OTR's Kim Rittberg is in Peru...she just emailed me these pics or room 206 (Joran was in 309 but a worker told Kim this is same layout):

[Anna]

Wait, I'm confused.  Riddle me this, Batman...It's quite obvious that they have clear surviellance tapes of his entering and leaving the hotel room.  Am I correct there?  If that's the case, isn't it as simple as them both entering togetrher, and him leaving alone?  There is no other signs of anyone else entering the room.  Again, am I correct there?  If that's the case, how can it even be argued that he committed this act?  Again, if what I said is true, that's all one would need to convict...right?  Even Aruba couldn't f*** this one up...

Hi there, Third,

Yes, you are correct.  Anyone else entering that room would appeat on the digital tapes just as Joran and Stephany did.  Mark Furman said there are bars on the outside of the windows and so no one could possibly enter through a window either.

I don't know how anybody could say someone else was involved.  The coroner has set the time of death as during the time Joran was in the room based on decomp.

It's open and shut to me as well, don't understand the conflict there at all.

Maybe someone entering the room wouldn't show up on camera if they were a vampire, lol.  But I think we are getting pretty far out there.  16 camera bank of security vids and it's all tied down as to who came and went.

Two went in, one came out.

[SunnyinTX]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2010/6/7/153936/3294

Joran Van der Sloot: More Conflicting Reports
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 02:39:36 PM EST



I'm still following the confusing reports from Peru on Joran Van der Sloot. My Spanish is getting better by the day because the Google and other online translators are pretty awful, and I've found that by reading the Spanish, I get a more accurate sense, even accounting for the words I don't know. Also, their pronouns are often wrong and in the wrong place making it hard to figure out who they are talking about. It's clearer to me reading the Spanish.

That said, while I can understand most of the written Spanish, I'm not able to translate it into English, so especially when pressed for time (like now) I may move to summaries, with links to the Spanish. From what I gather today: [More..]

La Repbulica (Google Translation here): The police now think robbery was the motive, they are checking her bank accounts for transfers (although other articles speculate it was her refusal to do a transfer that caused her murder.)

They are in possession of and checking both their cell phones as to numbers called to and from the phones. They may take Joran back to the hotel to retrace his steps and they continue to interview the hotel employees. It's also reported Stephany's wallet and credit cards were found with her body. (If her credit cards were there, doesn't that refute a robbery motive?) There are still conflicting reports on whether her jewelry was found, if she wore any.

Reports remain confusing as to poker player Elton Garcia. I'd say his story doesn't add up but there are so many inconsistencies, it may just be his statements are being incorrectly reported. E.g., if they weren't friends, why did they make plans 3 days in advance to meet at a certain restaurant for dinner? Why was he so concerned about Joran not showing that he feared he and Stephany had been kidnapped, and why was he so worried he asked the casino manager to call the hotel or check the casino videos? If he was staying at the same hotel as Joran, why didn't he ask himself? And how did he already know Stephany was missing?

Another curios note: Joran's number was stored in his phone. (One report says he told police he did that unintentionally when he received a call from Joran, who got his number from another poker player.)

Reports vary about the last night. Some have Elton, Joran and Stephany playing poker together at an open table from 3:20 am, when she arrived at the casino alone, until 5:00 a.m. when Joran and Stephanie left together, with Stephanie driving them to the hotel -- to those saying Elton just saw Stephany and Joran playing at an open table.

As mentioned, it's been reported by multiple publications Elton was staying at the same hotel as Joran. His story makes more sense if he wasn't staying at the same hotel. Maybe those reports are wrong. And if not, what time did he get back to the hotel that morning?

Some reports have Elton saying he played poker with Stephany four times in May. Some say he played with Stephany and Joran. Other reports have him saying he never met Joran, just knew him by sight. (But they were meeting for dinner?)

He refused to tell police Stephany had won $5,000. the night she disappeared, only that she had won $2,000. from him earlier in the month.

It sounds to me like Stephany knew both Elton and Joran and they had played together before and played together that night. But again, it's hard to tell from the conflicting reports.

The bigger question, given the speculation of robbery as a motive, is did Joran lose, and ask Stephany to drive him back to his hotel so he could get her the money? Or Did Stephany lose and Joran asked her to make a bank transfer to pay him, using a computer back at his room? And doesn't the casino have videotapes of all the tables? Wouldn't the tapes show who won and who lost?

Back to news: the ex-Director of NPI (which seems to be the equivalent of our Bureau of Prisons) says Joran will not be going to Miguel Castro Castro prison (as the Peruvian press reported yesterday.) (Google translation here.)He says Miguel Castro Castro is not secure enough to protect him. He believes Joran is likely to go to another maximum security prison in Piedras Gordas.

If Joran does go to Miguel Castro Castro, I hope he doesn't try to escape. There are a lot of land mines around the prison, courtesy of the old Peruvian government. Last month, the U.S. agreed to give Peru almost $3 million to remove some that are still there.

He's being closely guarded to make sure he doesn't attempt suicide. (Apparently, he hit his head against the wall of an elevator and they are taking that as a suicide attempt. I doubt it. No way would he be in an elevator alone and I doubt you kill yourself that way. Maybe it's a story to cover up that someone else bashed his head into the wall of an elevator?)

A Peruvian lawyer, Rosa Luisa Camargo, has been appointed for him, but the Republica reports he now wants a Dutch lawyer. The opposite was reported yesterday.

I haven't checked the wires in an hour or so and they change fast. Maybe some of these questions have been answered. What doesn't add up to you about the reports?

thanks cece.....a lot doesn't add up.......too much....we had dinner last night with a couple, the husband is a retired detective. He has been following the case and has a lot of questions and a lot of things that didn;t added up to him. It was interesting to hear him talk about what he would do.  He thinks perhaps a spurned lover of Stephany killed her in a jealous rage, after joran did leave her sleeping. I asked why hasn't the hotel clerk said someone else came.....he said yes, WHY?  OR a kidnapping gone wrong.....someone at the recognized Stephany....then joran leave her alone sleeping in the room.....someone from the hotel calls to tell whoever that she is there and alone.....a kidnapping gone bad??    From what he has read the clerk was scared chitless and would say whatever she was told to or she was that someone.  So joran left and said something about not disturbing his girl...per the clerk. Where is the video tape of joran leaving and returning with the coffee.   If he was running why didn't he take his passport? and all his money and credit cards?  Lots of stuff like that....it made for very interesting dinner conversation!!!

But he took her car.  That tells me that he knew she was dead when he left.

Do we know he took her car??  Another one of those reports......the car was 50 blocks from the hotel.....someone took it.....I hope there is some surveillance tapes with whoever took it or dropped it off.  I'd also like to know what is in the area where it was found??  Was it near where joran got the taxi??

[Puzzler]

I think everyone is getting a little too excited about these conflicting reports regarding this case.  Believe you me, this guy is going to DIE in a Peruvian Prison.  There is no way the Dutch or anyone else will be able to manipulate the system the way the Arubans have in the past.  And if what I hear is true about the bloody clothes they found in his bag, he's dead to rights with regards to his guilt...

Let's all take a deep breath and celebrate what's going on right now in Peru.  It's the beginning of the end for dear old Joran!!

I, for one am not getting excited, TS...but it does make me wonder what the truth is....I can't believe he had bloody clothes in his bag....he had ample time to get rid any any evidence like that....including the tennis racket. I am not as sure as your are about the Dutch not being able to manipulate the system. I just want the truth and so far I do not believe we are hearing the whole truth....so I will wait.

Maybe this will shed some light....I read that they found blood on Joran's shirt using Luminol. 
Sounds to me like he washed the blood out of the shirt (or thought he did, probably dried it with a hair dryer) and took it with him.  We all know that even if there's the tiniest trace of blood (not even visible to the naked eye), that Luminol will show up. 

As always, Joran thinks he can outsmart anyone...heck...he probably never thought he would get picked up.

Luminol....

[Port Valerie]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

[Gypsy DD]

Klaas,
You may have to ban Greta, too.  She was just on TV saying that it was the mioney extorted from Beth that enabled Joran to go to Peru!  I want to slap her silly right now.

How does Greta know it wasn't the money SHE gave Joran allegedly for the license of the fake tape of Paulus???

Hi Anna, I was saying the other day she was blaming the FBI and hinting that the money extorted was what he used to go to Peru..............I told y'all she was a biotch!!  And would do or say anything for ratings or an exclusive!!  I spit on her!!

here's the infuriating part - she SAYS, (and I paraphrase) she wanted to know why the FBI did not request extradition from Aruba on MAY 10TH. She CALLED Aruba's prosecutor's office and was told - we extradite for financial crime to the US.

So, she BELIEVES the Aruban Prosecutor's office and still no statement from the FBI. And in fact, the FBI hasn't said anything about this case in over 4 and a half years.

So, she is ever the most gullible person walking this earth or she has an axe to grind. How stupid can one be to believe anything from that prosecutor's office? And to take their word over a "no comment" from the FBI? come on now. Simma dawh Girdle.

Who here believes that Aruba would ever send Joran to the US? and for financial crimes non the less? HA!

Rob, you will get no takers on that!!  I 'know in my heart' that someone 'in the know' in aruba told him to get the hell outta dodge....perhaps because that someone knew the FBI was getting ready to ask for his arrest/detention. JMO and I don't think anyone can change my mind

I completely agree Sunny.  Joran is not smart enough to know when to get out of Dodge..he had some in the government tell him take the money and run.  I think he has always thought he could do whatever and the powes that be in his life would take care of the details.

 

[Anna]

There has been no news conference from the Preuvians as yet so no offical statement on anything.  I don't expect one for this first week of interrogations.  They are trying to get the story straight and give Joran a chance to clear up any questions.  When and if he is unable to do so, they will make an official statement and not before.

What information we are getting is from various reporters, most of whom do not speak Spanish and are not very careful about their facts.

So as yet, there is no official storyline.  There won't be for several more days.  We just have to try to patch together what we can from the media coverage which may or may not be correct.

Of course, we all want a straight and simple answer but think we have a few more days yet to go for that.

[Lifesong]

Well, I AM letting my hopes get up again.  Even though they've been dashed so many times before over the last 5 years. I again choose to believe that this time, justice will prevail.

I don't accept the notion that the Peruvians give a flying flip what the Dutch think about their justice system.  I believe they care much, much more about their own countryman and his family, his daughter.

I do not believe that the corrupt Dutch nor the corrupt Arubans will be able to stand between Joran van der Death and his fate this time.

This really is the beginning of the end.  I believe.

::happy dancing monkey::

[Blonde]

Its raining news

Security tightened around Joran

 LIMA -  The security around the 22-year-old murder suspect Joran van der Sloot has been tightened for fear of a suicide attempt by the Dutchman.  That the Peruvian authorities have informed against Upi.com website.
 
Van der Sloot is suspected of the murder of 21-year-old Peruvian Stephany Flores, whose body was found last Wednesday in the TAC hotel in tourist district of Miraflores in Peru.  The Dutchman is also still a suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway case.
 The Sunday escaped Van der Sloot was last Thursday after a manhunt by police Friday arrested in Chile and transferred to Peru.  He currently resides in custody at the police complex in Lima.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6880965/__Beveiliging_rond_Joran_aangescherpt__.html

He butted his head against the wall yesterday.  Maybe he needs a helmet to go with his vest, the little ones bike riders wear so we can still see his pretty blonde hair.

I hope they have a witness otherwise he will blame it on the Peru Police..

[AZSunny]

GRETA SAID WHAT ?!?

Anna writes: "You may have to ban Greta, too.  She was just on TV saying that it was the mioney extorted from Beth that enabled Joran to go to Peru!"

Greta said that?

A bit stunning.  You may remember, years ago here in the US there was a movement to open to liability the manufacturers of guns and ammunition -- on the basis that they sold the means for criminals to commit lethal crimes.

It went nowhere because it is illogical.  As is Greta's strange comment.

.

her reasoning skills have sharply diminished. Or she was kicked in the head by a Clydesdale.

Plus I'm tired of watching her dress in boy's clothes, size six.

And I hate her pennyloafers.

Agree, Rob.  Greta has a couple of sons.  I think she saved their clothing from when they were six years old and that is now her wardrobe.  Shoes included.

Oh....I thought Greta didn't have any children...

She doesn't have children.

[Anna]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I thought it was footboard as the mattress is in a sort of wooden box.  One of the corners of that box, head or foot, is where her head was hit.  Allegedly.

[klaasend]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

I think there's been a lot of translation confusion.  I don't think they ever said she hit her head on a headboard for sure, I think someone was guessing she could have. 

It's my understanding they are saying the weapon was a racquet. 

[klaasend]

Well, I AM letting my hopes get up again.  Even though they've been dashed so many times before over the last 5 years. I again choose to believe that this time, justice will prevail.

I don't accept the notion that the Peruvians give a flying flip what the Dutch think about their justice system.  I believe they care much, much more about their own countryman and his family, his daughter.

I do not believe that the corrupt Dutch nor the corrupt Arubans will be able to stand between Joran van der Death and his fate this time.

This really is the beginning of the end.  I believe.

::happy dancing monkey::

I'm with you Lifesong.  I don't believe Joran will ever again see the light of day.

[MuffyBee]

Regarding OTR pictures of Room 309: Useless. There's no headboard on this bed. Other reports said she hit her head on the headboard. Is OTR deliberately trying to confuse this whole story?

Hi Port Valerie, long time (waving)  I've seen some beds like this and sometimes the headboard is just tall enough to be part of the frame so small that the pillow just hides it.   Not a tall headboard like we've seen in the U.S.  Ikea has some like that for reference.  Also, it could be a translation thing and she hit her head on the corner of the bed post/frame and there isn't a "headboard".  I don't know.  Just some thoughts. 

[cece]

Peter R de Vries on tv right now.
He was on vacation when he heard about the case.
He thinks it's remarkable that Joran was paraded around before the press, but that's just common practice in Peru. In the Netherlands the trial would be void if that happened.
The hotel footage is very incriminating if indeed that is the only footage.
There is no indication that someone else was in the room. Or Joran would have to make up a story of someone hiding under the bed or something.
Joran was in a lot of debt (gambling).
For the last two years he has been begging for money from family, friends. Always coming up with heartbreaking excuses why he needed money (lost his wallet, passport)
Peter has the MSN-log of Joran and a friend in the Netherlands.
Again desperately begging for money to buy food.
MSN log with freind in Holland.
In Peter's opinion this was not a sexual offence but it was all about taking Stephany's money.
She probably said no, and that's when he snapped.

Says Beth Holloway is overwhelmed about what's happening in Peru and the similarities between the two cases.
Joran will only reveal more details about Natalee for his own gain, in order to try and make a deal.
But only for opportunistic reasons.

Peter says he's a psychopath, a narcisist.

The host asks if he is still in contact with Joran's family.
He says no, I'm not very popular with them.

Our MP is on the talkshow as well and says that Joran will be treated like all Dutch people who are detained abroad.
No special treatment for him.

Thanks so much Jo-An

[JE]

Just a few things:

1 JVDS can require a dutch lawyer all he likes but it will do nothing for him since a dutch lawyer is not allowed to practice in peru
his only role could be that of an assistant to the peruvian lawyer.

2 Extradition of dutch prisoners in foreign country's only takes place after the prisoner has been convicted and is actually doing time abroad. (in JVDS's case this could take up to two years)
This extradition is not guaranteed even if the country's have a treaty. First of all the criteria mentioned in the treaty have to be met and secondly there has to be a request
for extradition from either the country the prisoner is held in or the country of origin. If the netherlands make a request for extradition this request is not automatically honored. The country the prisoner is in has to agree.

I read an interview with a dutch law professor who said: Even if we would have a WOTS (extradition) treaty with Peru (which the dutch do not) why would we try to get JVDS back to the netherlands when there are
over 1200 other dutch prisoners stuck in jails all over the world. Why him and not them?

[Tamikosmom]

By google translator

Judicial inquiry into Joran can take years

THE HAGUE - The Ministry of Foreign Affairs issues a booklet 'Arrested in Peru' off. Below follows a number of facts, which are expected to apply to the situation of Joran van der Sloot.The brochure shows inter alia that the judicial inquiry into van der Sloot may take up to 36 months.

- Release on bail is virtually impossible.  Foreigners are rarely released on bail, because they might flee.

 - Lawsuits are public.  Three judges are considering a case.  All three pieces of a sentence.  Conviction by two of the three is sufficient for a conviction and sentencing.  Both the accused and the prosecutor may appeal against a higher sentence.

 - The president of Peru can pardon.  Requests for clemency may after serving one third of the sentence.  Pardon is granted only in special circumstances, such as serious illness.

 - Prison staff speaks only Spanish.

 - A Dutch prisoner will receive 30 euros per month from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 - Medical care in prisons is limited to the minimum, the quality is generally poor.  Tuberculosis, hepatitis and other infectious diseases are common.

 - A foreign prisoner has no right to (pilot) leave.
 - Prisons are overcrowded in Lima, making a lot of extra stress and difficult situations.

- It is not possible if to sit out your sentence  in a Dutch prison if your convicted in Peru.

 - The brochure provides a glossary of some practical Spanish phrases.  Some examples from this chapter: 'Tengo problemas con mi companero the celda.''(I'm having problems with my cellmate.), Cumplir su condena.''(Serving his sentence.), Grado de la pena.''(Punitive) .


http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1000/Nieuws/article/detail/488673/2010/06/07/Gerechtelijk-onderzoek-naar-Joran-kan-jaren-duren.dhtml

Unless of course you are Joran van der Sloot.  Prior to his involvement in the happenings encompassing the disappearance of Natalee Holloway ... Joran was given a free reign.  He learned that legal boundaries of expectation did not apply to him.

Somehow I know in my heart that Joran will be allowed to serve time for the murder of Stephany in a prison/mental institution in the Netherlands.  It is there that Dutch/Aruban "powers that be" will have the ability to prevent him from talking ... prevent him from revealing all in regards to those who participated in the cover up that has prevented justice from prevailing in the past five years for Natalee Holloway.

Janet

++++++


Rita Cosby Live & Direct - April 4, 2006

RITA COSBY, HOST:  John, first of all, is there a possibility that Paulus might have been talking to Natalee the night that she disappeared?

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY:  JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY:  Well, if you look at the surveillance video footage, it appears that he’s the one sitting directly next to her and tries to engage her in conversation a couple of times.  And it’s sort of ironic that it’s his father who brought his underage son to a casino and left him there after he left, with access to his line of credit, to put this unfortunate chain of events in process. 

You know, if Joran had never been there, not been allowed in there, because he’s underage and wasn’t accompanied by his father, the whole rest of the night wouldn’t have happened. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12150698/


Joran van der Sloot - Suspect Statement - June 9, 2005

To your question as to who gave me the VIP pass to Carlos & Charlies, I answer you that I got it through the office of Carlos & Charlies. I do not remember with the help of who I got the VIP pass. I got to Carlos & Charlies about one to three times a week.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=160.0