Lively Case Discussion #580 2/1 - 2/4/2007

[Kat_Gram]

My heart is aching for Kaitlin's mother.
I've been reading but anything I wanted to say sounded so trite and sentimental. Sometimes there are no words for me to express what I feel in these times.
.
Yes, please let us know about donations from SM. All of us have been
supportive in our own way here.
Cubbee, I just am at a loss for words to express myself.

[Rob]

Last nite after I signed off, my mind just wouldnt shut off. I really hate that about myself. I wish I had more control over it. But when something like what happened to Kaitlin happens, its just impossible for me to accept.

I looked at my posts and realized I was spelling alotta stuff wrong and was barely making any sense. I was wrought with worry for Kaitlin and Ms. Aydell. Its just the way I am. I worry about others, And Yes, even those I dont always agree with (you know who you are). It must be part of my genetic make up as I have always been this way. I care about people being killed in Darfur, Kosovo, Bosnia, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, and here at home where I actually live. I dont see people as white, black, red, green or purple, I just see people that need help.

I'll never deny that I am a hard core conservative and I see those issues in only black and white, there is no gray area for me. On issues of strife, I am some type of bleeding heart. I cant stand to see people suffer, and try each day to do something to help others. I dont do it to look good in God's eyes, I do it to help. If I stood by and watched, I dont know how I would be able to live with myself as I am my own worst critic.

Yesterday I knew the odds that Kaitlin was most likely no longer alive. But some part of me held out hope that she could be found alive. It must be some part of me that doesnt like to accept the finality of the situation. I want to change things that only God can change. I feel powerless in situations where someone needs help and I am unable to do anything.

I like to think I can use my brains or organize my friends to make a difference. It's hard to come grips with the fact that I along with everyone else is basically powerless to do anything. In fact its frustrating and heartbreaking.

Even though we all hoped for the best, and held out hope that some type of miracle would occur, the fact is Kaitlin was gone before we ever found out about it. (looking back is easy, but the pain is still there).

There will be more heart break in the future. It's just a fact. Any of us that truly cares about our fellow man or woman, will see this day occur again and again. It's unfortunate, but it will happen.

Did what happened to Kaitlin have to occur?

The answer is no. Mr. Lewis, could have been in jail for his assault on a woman using a screw driver as a weapon to kidnap her. I am always perplexed as to why a guy that steals food to eat can get 5 or 10 years for theft, but a violent criminal only gets 2 years and is back on the streets as fast as possible. Something is wrong with that. Seriously wrong.

A guy that sells pot to his friends gets 12 years and a murderer gets only 8 and is out after only 4 because of good behavior. I thought the jail sentence was the punishment, not a societal deterrent. In a death penalty case, the punishment is death. If it prevents someone else from committing a similar crime, well thats great but not the main intention.

Allowing criminals out for good behavior seems to me to be the biggest oxymoron ever. Isnt it the bad behavior that got them locked up in the first place? And how much bad behavior can you really do in jail anyway?

Would they extent a jail sentence for bad behavior or would the original sentence just stand? Either way it makes no sense.

Yesterday was a bad day and there will be others just like it. No matter how many days like yesterday, I will never develope a thick skin to it.
I dont like it one bit, but I am old enough to know that more days like that will occur.

Keeping these animals locked up will help eliminate the chances they will be repeat offenders. There really is no other option other than the finality of an execution.

The judge that sentenced Mr. Lewis to his previous sentence will not be on the door step of Ms Aydell to comfort her, only her family and friends will be there. The judge will not alter his approach until it is his family member.

How many Kaitlin's will there be before the judicial system wakes up to this epidemic?

SB- terrific post, you and I are always on the same page. You said it all so well, as usual.

[nonesuche]

Poor Cubbee, to have to live through this with a young girl and family she cared for. {{ hugs }} I'm sure Ms Aydell is grateful for you and remember that Kaitlin found friendship and support from you and your family Cubbee, that was a bright spot in her short life.

I had not thought of this before but with Katrina, isn't it possible that with the living arrangements i.e. trailers by the thousands, who is tracking where sexual predators live there? I mean how can they?

Even with tracking in my city just a month ago I discovered via the online registry that in our low crime city we have 8 convicted predators living within 4 blocks of a year-round elementary school, 1 mile from a middle school, and 2 miles from a high school all close to our neighborhood? So that is proof even with a low-crime city our LE obviously isn't enforcing the existing laws, so I did send an email to our mayor's office.

We all need to be vigilant and activists regarding this issue, and I do hope Kaitlin's mother gets the support and counseling she will need, as well as any other help for her family that's needed. God help them, I will pray for them.

[Peaches]

Good morning.  

Post of the day, SB.  

I understand that inability to "shut off", Rob.  The feeling of helplessness that accompanies hearing of yet another child stolen from her family and the world is overwhelming.

My heart goes out to Kaitlyn's family and of course, our own, Cubbee and her family.  I will watch for announcement of fund for family.

[Peaches]

NONE!!!!!!

How are you!

[Cat]

I agree SB and Rob.I have seen where so's live.They don't repent or change.Cat

[Kat_Gram]

I appreciated what Rob and SB posted. I too am a deep feeling person.
I try to cover it up by being " the goofy " at work and home.

[sb]

Real quick... time to head out for services this AM...

Like Rob said, Kaitlin was gone before we in here ever knew about her. Just like Natalee. When I shook hands with Dave Holloway meeting him for the firsttime, I said, "It's good to meet you, but I wish I didn't HAVE to".

We can do NOTHING after the fact. We can't go back and retroactively change things. That mother can't either. She did EVERYTHING right.  Kaitlin went HOME. She locked doors. She had her cellphone. Mom checked on her. This was NOT a girl out at 2 AM where danger is far more likely

Evil won the day because it was given a window of opportunity by allowing a monster to maneuver his way into position before the dreaded day came. If that guy had been dealt with previously, this could have been prevented.

There will always be the What-Ifs in a situation like this.

The What-Ifs here point squarely to a society and a system that allows sexual predators and sick, evil people to go free and that feels "compassion" for them, rather than their victims.

The death penalty protects the innocent from the guilty.

In this case, it will happen one innocent child too late.

Rob, good job pal. I was thinking about how very different this Super Bowl Sunday will be for you than last year's.  

I'll be back later.

[oldfart]

Hi Monkyes...

I was pretty much in lurk mode yesterday...Just could not bring myself to post.

Rob pretty much said what I was feeling.

Yesterday I knew the odds that Kaitlin was most likely no longer alive.
But some part of me held out hope that she could be found alive.
It must be some part of me that doesnt like to accept the finality
of the situation. I want to change things that only God can change.
I feel powerless in situations where someone needs help and I am unable
to do anything.

Even though I had guessed Kaitlin was not alive when Cubbee 1st posted about her being missing and the cousin being arrested ...Im still devastated.

I will be watching for an address where I can at least donate to assist her family.

SeeeYaa

[mishy]

New Evidence in the Adam Walsh case.
Connects Jeffery Damner to the case.

Damner in car and at mall on day Adam disappears.

Blue van involved.

Damner used van.

   

[crazybabyborg]

New Evidence in the Adam Walsh case.
Connects Jeffery Damner to the case.

Damner in car and at mall on day Adam disappears.

Blue van involved.

Damner used van.

   

Hi Monkeys! I haven't looked this up, but I was thinking that the guy they thought did this to Adam died in jail..............

I wonder what happened to bring a connection to Dahmer to the attention of authorities?

[crazybabyborg]

F-B-I agent says Dahmer raised suspicions in Walsh case
 
 
 










MILWAUKEE A retired F-B-I profiler who interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer says the Milwaukee serial killer's answers when asked about the murder of Adam Walsh raised suspicions he may have been involved in the boy's murder.

The six-year-old boy disappeared from a shopping mall in the Miami suburb of Hollywood in 1981, and his head was found two weeks later in a drainage canal. His body was never found and his murder was never solved. His father John Walsh went on to start the crime-fighting T-V show "America's Most Wanted."

W-I-S-N T-V has been investigating after questions were raised in a new book by Miami author Arthur Jay Harris. He started looking at the Walsh case after a legal ruling opened the ten-thousand-page Walsh file to the public.

Dahmer lived in south Florida when the boy disappeared.

A police investigator says Dahmer denied killing Walsh.

But retired F-B-I profiler Neil Purtell tells the station he asked Dahmer whether, if he had killed Walsh, he would tell him. He says Dahmer responded that he knew Florida had the death penalty ... and that whoever killed the boy would not survive in prison. Dahmer himself was later killed in a Wisconsin prison by another inmate.

W-I-S-N T-V says two witnesses have reported seeing someone they now believe was Dahmer at the mall where the boy disappeared. Also, Dahmer had use of a blue work van ... and a blue van was seen speeding from the mall.

The station says Florida state investigators plan to review information from the report ... to see if key details were overlooked.

[crazybabyborg]

WYFF News 4 sister station, WISN in Milwaukee, is reporting that there are new questions about serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer's criminal history before he returned to Milwaukee and clues that some believe link Dahmer to one of the United States' most notorious cold cases.

The boy at the center of that cold case is now a household name. Who can forget the toothless grin of 6-year-old Adam Walsh, the Florida boy abducted, dismembered and dumped in a drainage canal in 1981.

A Miami author is making the case that Dahmer may be responsible for the Walsh slaying.

WISN dissected his argument and has detailed the never-reported evidence that has at least one career        FBI man calling to reopen the case against Dahmer.

It was a strange and surreal summer. Officials reported the daily death toll and named the faces of death.

As the victims' families faced the horror that was Dahmer, WISN reported that a subplot was unfolding that police tried to keep from the headlines.

"It smelled. All the right smells were there. That's the way I looked at it," retired FBI Agent Neil Purtell said.

Purtell was the FBI agent assigned to the Dahmer case. For the first time, he talked about his role in the Adam Walsh investigation. Purtell said from the day of the arrest, many in law enforcement wondered if Milwaukee's most notorious killer could be responsible for a high-profile case that went cold long ago.

"If Dahmer did this, if it was my son, I'd want the truth," Purtell said.

So does Adam's father.

"Even though it's a cold case, people are coming forward who are claiming one thing, who are saying we were not taken seriously back 25, 26 years ago. So I think they have to look at this case," John Walsh told WISN this week.

Walsh and Purtell believe new, never-revealed information in the Walsh case demands a second look at Dahmer. It's information developed by a Florida journalist who took up the Walsh investigation long after police had stopped. And now, 25 years later, the time has come.

"He's our only child, a beautiful little boy, and we just want him back," Walsh said in July 1981.

On July 27, 1981, Adam vanished from a shopping mall in the Miami suburb of Hollywood.

The disappearance of the Little Leaguer prompted a nationwide search and indelibly imprinted Adam's gap-toothed grin in the minds of shaken families across the country.

"I don't know who would do this to a 6-year-old child. I can't conceive of it," Walsh said at the time of Adam's disappearance.

Two weeks later, fishermen found Adam's head in a drainage canal, but police never found his body.

By July 1991, the investigation into Adam's slaying was stale until Dahmer's trail of death exploded in headlines. As investigators traced Dahmer's life path they found a chilling coincidence. Dahmer was living in south Florida when Adam disappeared.

When the Army discharged Dahmer, it told him he could have a plane ticket anywhere in the United States, WISN reported. Dahmer told police he couldn't go home to face his father, so he headed to Miami Beach because he was tired of the cold.

Hollywood police figured it was a long-shot but asked Milwaukee officers to talk to Dahmer, who denied killing Adam.

The issue got little media attention.

Purtell told WISN that was by design. Investigators feared news of the link might prove so sensational it could jeopardize Dahmer's court case.

"We did not want to do it during the trial in Milwaukee. Why raise that issue? It could have eliminated his cooperation. It could have made jury selection more difficult than it already was," Purtell said.

Adam's name never made it into the police reports that became his confession, but news of Dahmer's stay in Florida made its way to the Walsh family.

By 1991, Adam's father, John Walsh, was the star of "America's Most Wanted." Walsh was so moved by the Dahmer link that he made a remarkable request. He asked Florida to waive the death penalty if Dahmer confessed to Adam's slaying.

WISN obtained a copy of the Walsh letter, where he pointed to Dahmer's criminal record, which includes killing two 14-year-olds, sexually assaulting a 13-year-old and exposing himself to 12-year-olds.

Walsh wrote, "Many people have forgotten that Jeffrey Dahmer started out as a pedophile, kidnapper, and torturer of young boys. He certainly fits the profile of someone who might be capable of murdering a beautiful 6-year-old boy."

After Dahmer's conviction, a Florida detective traveled to Wisconsin carrying the letter -- a promise to waive the death penalty. The trip was a bust.

WISN obtained the never-before published transcript of Dahmer's interview with Florida police.

"My main purpose of coming here for, you know, the investigation of Adam Walsh and you go on record to say that you had nothing to do with it," the detective said.

"I heard it on the news, but I had nothing to do with it, no," Dahmer said.

"And if you did have something to do with it? You would admit to it?" the detective asked.

"Uh, right. Yeah," Dahmer said.

Dahmer told the Hollywood detective he was broke and drinking heavily while in Miami Beach, worked at a sub shop and often slept on the beach.

Dahmer said he didn't have a car, had never been to Hollywood, and he wasn't interested in kids Adam's age.

"The official line is he didn't kill. And the official line is what Jeffrey said. Should we believe that?" writer Arthur Jay Harris, a freelancer who's published three true crime books, said.

Harris started looking at the Walsh case in 1996 after a landmark legal ruling opened the 10,000-page Walsh file to the public. The Dahmer angle intrigued him. He started digging.

Harris just finished a book about Dahmer and recently laid out his case in a Miami daily paper. His article put Dahmer at the Hollywood Mall, in the suspected getaway car on the day Adam disappeared.

One of the reasons why police believed Dahmer that he didn't kill Adam (was) because he said he didn't have a vehicle," Harris said.

"This blue van had a crate for a passenger seat," Darlene Hill said.

Harris located Hill, the former owner of restaurant where Dahmer worked. Hill told WISN the business had three delivery vehicles. One was a blue van. Several witnesses reported seeing a blue van speed from the mall that day.

Hill said employees often took the blue van for personal use.

"Somebody would take the van and not come back with it for two days," Hill said.

Harris then found Dahmer's former boss at the restaurant, whose version of the events, Harris said, shows Dahmer lied to Hollywood police.

Harris said the boss told him Dahmer worked seven days a week at the sub shop, all day and all night. That was another reason he wouldn't have had an opportunity.

"Well, the guy who hired him (Dahmer) said he worked maybe 20 hours a week, late morning to late afternoon five days a week, so that's not true," Harris said.

Also buried in the Walsh file, Harris found two statements -- witnesses who said they saw Dahmer at the mall the day Adam disappeared. For the first time, both men share their stories on television.

"I had a sense that someone was staring at me," Willis Morgan said.

Morgan said he was shopping when a dirty, disheveled man in his 20s started hitting on him.

Morgan was a buff blond in 1981 -- the Chippendale dancer type Dahmer repeatedly told police was his type.

"I didn't answer him, and he said, 'Nice day isn't it?' And I still didn't answer him," Willis said. "And then the smile went off his face, and he had this look of anger, and I was just like looking at him, you know. I didn't know what this guy was up to, and then all of a sudden that look went to like rage. It was an unbelievable look. I had to look away," Willis said.

Morgan said he followed the man into the Sears store and lost him in the toy department -- the last place Adam was seen alive.

Ten years later, Morgan was at his printer job at the Miami Herald proofing the morning paper.

"When the papers came in, I saw the picture of Dahmer, and I started freaking out. I said, 'This is the guy. This is the guy I saw in the mall,'" Willis said.

At about the same time, another man was shocked to see Dahmer's picture in the paper.

"That Sunday, in 1991, when the picture of Dahmer came out, it hit me like a baseball bat," Bill Bowen said.

Bowen said he had just pulled into the Sears parking lot that day in 1981 when he witnessed an explosive scene.

"There was a man holding a little boy by one arm up in the air. The boy was struggling, and the boy was saying, 'I don't want to go. I'm not going,'" Bowen said.

Bowen said the man threw the boy into a blue van and screeched off. Bowen said he only saw the man's profile, but it looked like the newspaper picture he brought police.

Both Morgan and Bowen said they reported the incidents to police back in 1981. Police said there's no such record but conceded the Walsh file contains no log of any of the early tips in the case.

"There were some issues when this case first surfaced that maybe we were a little overwhelmed with the magnitude of it," Hollywood police Capt. Mark Smith said.

Smith said he read Harris' article with interest but doesn't buy his theory.

He called Harris' evidence against Dahmer circumstantial and said that the Hollywood Police Department hasn't been able to find the sub shop's blue van, and two mall witnesses aren't enough to close a murder case.

"If we found no more on Jeffrey Dahmer, and I don't believe we will find any more than this circumstantial evidence we have now, we would never get to a conviction. I don't believe we'd ever get to an indictment," Smith said.

The retired Milwaukee detective who spent more than 150 hours taking Dahmer's confession doesn't buy it either. Dennis Murphy said Dahmer repeatedly denied killing Adam.

"He said, 'I've told you everything -- how I killed them, how I cooked them, who I ate. Why wouldn't I tell you if I did someone else?'" Murphy said.

Dahmer's defense attorney, Gerry Boyle, said seven doctors spent hundreds of hours interviewing Dahmer. Not one suggested Dahmer was withholding information.

"He was very honest. By that, I mean, he seemed to unload everything. I don't see any reason he wouldn't have said that he killed the boy. But of course, that was not his profile. Young boys was not his profile," Boyle said.

Purtell said Dahmer was a talented liar, and given the evidence Harris uncovered, it's time to reopen the Walsh case with a team of seasoned investigators -- even though Dahmer is dead.

"People will say, 'What does it matter?'" Purtell said. "What if we looked at all the evidence we had now and said we could get a warrant for his arrest?" Purtell asked.

"And a prosecutor looking at that evidence we have now collected would say, 'I could convict him on the evidence we have. We feel that he is now responsible. That's closure. We've done our job as a society. We have not forgotten this child,'" Purtell said.

On Wednesday, Walsh responded to WISN's story from an "America's Most Wanted" set in Texas. He said more than 25 years later, he can't believe he's still fighting for a competent investigation into Adam's slaying.

"That's a bitter pill for me to swallow. (As) someone who's a big supporter of law enforcement, that the law enforcement agency investigating my son's murder would lose -- blatantly lose -- key pieces of evidence, and not interview people who thought they had important information about the case, it's really a tough thing," Walsh said.

Walsh told WISN that Dahmer became a suspect years ago when Dahmer's father, Lionel, called "America's Most Wanted" and told them he thought his son could be responsible for Adam's slaying.

[Nut44x4]

New Evidence in the Adam Walsh case.
Connects Jeffery Damner to the case.

Damner in car and at mall on day Adam disappears.

Blue van involved.

Damner used van.

   

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I, ummmmmm, cannot connect to this. I have studied Dahmer over the years and this is not his m.o.
He was not into LITTLE children. This is not logical to me.

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Carnut! I don't know what to think about it, either. Do you know who it was ( or maybe I'm just mixed up ) that was in jail and died there that authorities thought killed Adam Walsh?

If I remember correctly, he never admitted it.

[Katysmom]

New Evidence in the Adam Walsh case.
Connects Jeffery Damner to the case.

Damner in car and at mall on day Adam disappears.

Blue van involved.

Damner used van.

   

Hi Monkeys! I haven't looked this up, but I was thinking that the guy they thought did this to Adam died in jail..............

I wonder what happened to bring a connection to Dahmer to the attention of authorities?

Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer was murdered in a Wisconsin prison.  Rob, where are you getting your info?

[justinsmama]

Rob, You wrote so well what all of us here feel. Before coming to Scared Monkeys, I had come to believe that the entire world is corrupt. I felt very alone. Between this forum and my current employer of the last 2 1/2 years, I've come to realize that while there is much corruption and evil, I am not alone in my compassionan and concern for our fellows. The caring that you spoke of, Rob, that is the strength of our souls. It is what God intended us to be. We disagree at times. Heck, just read a thread or two in the political forum and y'all will get a huge example of that. Despite the expected disagreements, we are all people with a bond. We care. I love each and every one of you.

[mishy]

CBB, I only remember the sketchy details that you just posted about the guy who died in prison, who they thought killed Adam Walsh. But for some reason, I think there was something about him that made them feel he wasn't the killer...

This is a lot to "digest." I am going to read back and see what Cubbee said about Kaitlin. I felt sure that scum must have raped her. Did I read correctly that they think she wasn't molested? God bless her precious soul! Her poor mama  

[crazybabyborg]

Mishy: Cubbee posted that they thought Kaitlin was strangled/asphixiated and that she had not been raped.

I don't know details but there is some planning for Scared Monkeys to enable some sort of donations for the family. I'm sure the details will be posted and I'm watching for it, too.

This will be another very hard day for Cubbee, and for Kaitlin's family. My heart goes out to them.......

[Rob]

Yes, Jeffrey Dahmer was murdered in a Wisconsin prison.  Rob, where are you getting your info?

what are you asking me specifically? I think CBB posted the info you seek.

It was on the news last night.