Natalee Case Discussion #838 6/12/10 -6/14/10

[klaasend]

Well, it could be.  Ambiguous genitalia is a real deformity; the doctors and parents decide which way to fix it.

Is it hereditary?

[SteveDinMD]

To clarify further, I believe Stephany's pants and shoes were removed by Joran in the failed rape attempt, and that he had nothing to gain by putting them back on Stephany's dead body. 

I actually agree with this.  I believe Joran's motives were rape/robbery and he got mad.  I also believe it's happened more that twice (Natalee & Stephany).

It's almost a certainty that he's raped before -- with Deepak and Satish as his original "partners in crime."  It's much more doubtful that anyone else has died as a consequence. 

These two women did not die from a rape. They died from resisting him. He doesn't take frustration well. I would guess he has met frustration and opposition more than these two times. We have the "missing years" in Thailand. So there could be more, IMO.

Stephany likely died in her struggle to resist rape.  Natalee might have, too, or she might have died of a combination of alcohol and Rohypnol intoxication.  It's impossible to tell at this point.  In either case, though, Joran would be guilty of felony murder in most U.S. jurisdictions. 

Yes, but not exactly. I'm putting a finer nuance on it. I think it's the idea of someone resisting him, or turning him down, or not giving him what he wants -- whether sex, or money, or respect -- that sends him into feelings of humiliation followed by rage. If he wanted to rape Stephany, he was certainly big enough and strong enough to do it and then leave her. The nature of the injuries suggest to me that he went berserk over who knows what perceived insult. He intended to kill, not subdue and have his way.

Oddly enough, I don't see Joran as a very sexual person. Not appealing. No chemistry. No seduction moves. I think his motivation is in the area of power and esteem, not sex.

     He couldn't very easily rape and then abandon a screaming victim in a hotel room, though.  He had to keep her from fleeing and then shut her up, quickly.  If the killing were premeditated, then it would be the stupidest murder I've ever heard of, designed to end in the perpetrator's arrest and conviction.  Moreover, the story about Joran's "rage" over Stephany's inquiry into the Holloway case was a self-serving fabrication.  In his confession, he was looking to establish the elements of Second Degree Murder, which is punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment in Peru.  First Degree Murder is punishable by up to 35 years imprisonment. 

[TURBOTHINK]

I've traveled the world enough to know American is a blessing!
Amen

I traveled most of the world with my career for 28 years and the one thing most people never seem to realize is you have NO RIGHTS in a foreign country. While many of them are more civilized than others, if you get accused of wrong doing you are sh*t out of luck for the most part. I always tell my friends DO NOTHING which can even appear to be illegal and read ALL the laws first because what you think is legal is not in some countries. Just being with a local who is considered a "risk" can land you in jail and those people many times are the ones who rent themselves out as guides.

The American Embassy is almost impossible to get in touch with and if you do the process is SO SLOW nothing gets done. You better have a ton of money with you for bribes or you are going to be sitting in a foreign country where you don't understand their language. Some countries take your passport when you enter their country and if you don't have a duplicate, you will not leave until they allow you to leave.

[Port Valerie]

Whoever photoshopped it then did a really good job.  I didn't think it was photoshopped.  I figured it was a birth deformity.

I saw something like that on "House." Baby was born with two sets of everything and the parents had to choose which to keep. They decided to make him a boy (or was it a girl?) Anyway, that child was never quite right.

[klaasend]

I mean it would answer why he'd feel a need to drug and rape girls/women. 

[texasmom]

TM - Funeral May 18

TM!!

So Zaandam dropped from a heart attack within a week of Joran's FBI-tapes extortion meeting with JQK?

Nice catch guys!  How interesting is that?

I think it's interesting, very interesting.  Like I said before, I thought about it yesterday but got busy with other things so I'm glad Magnolia mentioned it tonight.  JQK met with Joran and paid him on the 10th of May, Zaandam died on the 12th; Joran leaves Aruba the next day!

[darleenofalabama]

And, maybe his parents weren't interested in fixing it.  So, he grew up full of rage and became a lying, manipulating multiple murderer.  Then, feeling guilty, his daddy masterminded a massive cover-up for his crimes before he himself died.  Now, his mother, who was probably unable to bond with him has been forced to just wash her hands of him and leave him to suffer what he deserves.

[meshuggener]

On MSNBC right now there is a special report on about YVDS. 

[klaasend]

Zandaam died on May 12, 2010

[klaasend]

On MSNBC right now there is a special report on about YVDS. 

My guess is a repeat from something earlier but let us know if it sounds new. 

[Tylergal]

LOL, we have been so busy I totally forgot about the finger one I did, lol

I am happy you said that.  I was about to go hide somewhere.  I thought he was trying to talk to me. 

[Port Valerie]

And, maybe his parents weren't interested in fixing it.  So, he grew up full of rage and became a lying, manipulating multiple murderer.  Then, feeling guilty, his daddy masterminded a massive cover-up for his crimes before he himself died.  Now, his mother, who was probably unable to bond with him has been forced to just wash her hands of him and leave him to suffer what he deserves.

We have ourselves a Lifetime series!

[darleenofalabama]

PortValerie, I've never seen two sets (of course, I've never seen everything that medically occurs), but I've seen two or three cases where the genitalia are too ambiguous to know the sex of the baby, so they do some bloodwork, etc., and discuss it with the parents and do surgery to make the sex of the baby more prominent, so to speak.

[Northern Rose]

of all people, would you not expect Uri Geller to know Joran would cheat him before he was cheated?

[Tylergal]

Whoever photoshopped it then did a really good job.  I didn't think it was photoshopped.  I figured it was a birth deformity.

It's not photoshopping!  It's like noses....some got big ones and some got little at all.
Joran got little at all.

Exactly, and if he had "ambiguous" genitalia, there would be other signs that hormones were needed and the doctors who do these do many hormone tests before deciding which way to go.  Joran does not seem to need hormones, just a bigger woodpecker.

[Ono]

To clarify further, I believe Stephany's pants and shoes were removed by Joran in the failed rape attempt, and that he had nothing to gain by putting them back on Stephany's dead body. 

I actually agree with this.  I believe Joran's motives were rape/robbery and he got mad.  I also believe it's happened more that twice (Natalee & Stephany).

It's almost a certainty that he's raped before -- with Deepak and Satish as his original "partners in crime."  It's much more doubtful that anyone else has died as a consequence. 

These two women did not die from a rape. They died from resisting him. He doesn't take frustration well. I would guess he has met frustration and opposition more than these two times. We have the "missing years" in Thailand. So there could be more, IMO.

Stephany likely died in her struggle to resist rape.  Natalee might have, too, or she might have died of a combination of alcohol and Rohypnol intoxication.  It's impossible to tell at this point.  In either case, though, Joran would be guilty of felony murder in most U.S. jurisdictions. 

Yes, but not exactly. I'm putting a finer nuance on it. I think it's the idea of someone resisting him, or turning him down, or not giving him what he wants -- whether sex, or money, or respect -- that sends him into feelings of humiliation followed by rage. If he wanted to rape Stephany, he was certainly big enough and strong enough to do it and then leave her. The nature of the injuries suggest to me that he went berserk over who knows what perceived insult. He intended to kill, not subdue and have his way.

Oddly enough, I don't see Joran as a very sexual person. Not appealing. No chemistry. No seduction moves. I think his motivation is in the area of power and esteem, not sex.

I agree with that-I think he's completely ambivalent ... but pretends attraction for the opposite sex as he thinks it futhers his persona;  He lusts for control & power..   He is king and everyone else are his subjects.  His vanity must be fed.  And I think he likes to inflict pain.

[Lifesong]

TM - Funeral May 18

TM!!

So Zaandam dropped from a heart attack within a week of Joran's FBI-tapes extortion meeting with JQK?

Nice catch guys!  How interesting is that?

I think it's interesting, very interesting.  Like I said before, I thought about it yesterday but got busy with other things so I'm glad Magnolia mentioned it tonight.  JQK met with Joran and paid him on the 10th of May, Zaandam died on the 12th; Joran leaves Aruba the next day!

Wow!  That is crazy!

Can you give me those links again so I can add them?  The one from the 12th announcing the death and the one with the funeral on the 18th?

You know I'm eventually going to have to go back through all the threads from the end of March looking to see what all happened that we didn't connect. 

Great thinking on your part - wtg!

[Port Valerie]

PortValerie, I've never seen two sets (of course, I've never seen everything that medically occurs), but I've seen two or three cases where the genitalia are too ambiguous to know the sex of the baby, so they do some bloodwork, etc., and discuss it with the parents and do surgery to make the sex of the baby more prominent, so to speak.

Well, you know how "House" is. Pretty far out there.

Anyway, I'm getting a bit slap-happy here so I must be tired and need to go to bed.

Goodnight, all.

[klaasend]

Nite PV

[texasmom]

LOL, we have been so busy I totally forgot about the finger one I did, lol

I am happy you said that.  I was about to go hide somewhere.  I thought he was trying to talk to me. 

ROFLMAO!  San and Klaas skeeeeeerd the bejeezus out of all of us with that!  I thought I was seeing things the first time I saw it!