Natalee Case Discussion #838 6/12/10 -6/14/10

[MisGivings]

Thanks Klaas.
All eyes are upon Aruba now.  They must hate that!!!

We read yesterday that Aruba is holding the Kalpoe passports.  What do you make of that?

Do you see it as a supportive ploy re the Lawsuit with Phil or are they flagging them, maybe as message they are under suspicion?? or .......???

That is a ploy by the officials who are involved in this to keep them from testifying in the case in California. They are afraid they will "spill the beans" on everyone once they get on American soil.

Thanks Turbo, appreciate your opinion.  Often ALE do things that can be spun many ways.  

Well, we know they are not going to arrest them or charge them unless they have decided to make them the "fall guys" for NH murder. Of course that might happen if those two don't know who the officials are who negotiated all the missing evidence. If only Joran knows, they might think they can just rely on the fact he is such a liar to get out of their part.

I am guessing with all this coming down now, they don't want those two in court testifying. The other option might be they are covering up once again in this case. If they hold the passports then they can claim to the court that they can't leave the island.  

I heard an interesting quote yesterday saying Aruba officials would be wanting Joran dead in that jail and might be sending someone to keep him from talking about all of their connections. I had not thought about them sending someone in to make that happen. Could that be why he won't eat the food? He believes they will try to poison him?

WAAAH, so what he if doesn't eat the food he is given. Joran, NOBODY CARES! I bet he even asks the guards to switch plates with him, so he doesn't get the poisoned one. The more weight he loses, the more his ears will stick out which will help when the other prisoners are making him squeal like the pig that he is.
IT IS OVER, DEAR SPORTER!!! You will NEVER be allowed to hurt anyone again!

[Sea Searcher]

Well that got all mixed up.. LOL


Whatever these new developments are and whether or not anything comes from these rumors, I do not believe they are based upon the old pictures from the snorkeling, vacationing couple as previously reported on and dismissed.

JMO



I hope you're right...this kept on popping up last week or so and everytime I clicked the link, I ended up at the snorkeling couple story..I haven't seen anything "new" from any other media outlet..
If this new Breaking News is true..that would be a nice hurdle to jump on this case. Then one would have to ask "Who found it and where ? "

I'll keep looking for anything to substantiate this new story..

My comments in Blue....Lifesong's in Red

[MisGivings]

[Steph Watts]

It has been a relatively quiet weekend on the Island of Aruba. The focus of this story is still on Peru, but that will quickly change this week.  Dave Holloway is on his way to the Island.  He will be here later today.  I know that authorities in Peru are working very hard to get the information they need from Van Der Sloot about where Natalee’s body is.  There are alot of things I can’t discuss now.  I feel like the kid they sat down in front of a giant birthday cake — the adults tell him not to touch the cake — then leave to room.

Tonight live from Aruba at 8:00 p.m. EST with Dave Holloway’s attorney Vinda de Sousa and Former Head of the Houston FBI, Don Clark, with the very latest on the investigation — stick with the source on the ground….ME.

To listen to my show, Blogtalkradio.com/Watts-Up-With-This, click here.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this

<<snipped>>

NANCY GRACE
Peru Files Murder One Charges on Van Der Sloot
Aired June 11, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1006/11/ng.01.html

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After reports circulate that Natalee`s skull discovered, as details of Van Der Sloot`s blackmail plot emerge and Aruban authorities head to Peru, has Van Der Sloot admitted his own father, Judge Paulus Van Der Sloot, helped hide Natalee`s body? And is he set from behind the walls of a Peruvian jailhouse to confess to the murder of Natalee Holloway?


Hmm....I think something's up.

Discovered??  Not likely.  The timing is so suspicious.  In my opinion ... Aruban authorities have known where Natalee Holloway's remains have been for the passed 2 1/2 years.  It was Aruban divers who on January 7, 2008 recovered unchallenged the contents of the trap discovered by the Persistence endeavor in Aruban waters.

Thank you Lifesong.  Great Catch!!

+++++++

Yep...Not discovered....Planted for recovery....

IF Nancy Grace's breaking news of June 11th reflects the truth and ... Aruba gives up Natalee's remains ... the truth regarding the happenings encompassing the morning of May 30, 2005 will continue to remain elusive.  IMO

It is my hope that Joran spends years detained in a Peruvian prison.

Janet
 

IF they find Natalee's body despite the new information Joran is willing to share, it will be the end of the chips he thinks he is holding.
It is in Aruba's best interest to produce Natalee's body before he brings them all down with him.

[ozziesmom]

http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/stephany-flores-family-angry-netherlands

a little old, but I haven't seen it..

[jjayinthemorning]

Afterthought, in the early part of the investigation 5 years ago Greta tried to get on the property and IIRC she suspected the body was there. What if the law allowed search of the property when Joran named the father and the skull was found with sonar there? Whereas Greta knew all along and had it staked out... just waiting.

[Tamikosmom]

IF Natalee's skull shows up.......it has to be from the cage.....MHO

billb

I agree.

I am of the belief that Natalee's remains were in all probability recovered unchallenged from the trap by Aruban divers on January 7, 2008.  Therefore ... the implication is that those remains have been in the possession of Aruban authorities for the past 2 1/2 years.  IMO

Janet

++++++++

THE PERSISTENCE STORY

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS

December 25, 2007 - Sonar Discover
December 29, 2007 - 1st ROV Dive
December 30, 2007 - Visual Dive and 2nd ROV Dive
January 07, 2008 - Recovery Dive and 3rd ROV Dive


KYLE KINGMAN - KEY PERSONNEL

Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Introduction

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.

December 25, 2007 and December 29, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning.  I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

December 30, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.  He couldn't tell by his own admission.
 
Kyle Kingman:  By Tim's (Trahan) own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

January 07, 2008

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman:  Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman:  The bags were removed just after the ROV got out of the way when the divers took the samples to their boat.... and took off.

Kyle Kingman: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

Kyle Kingman:    Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.  He was the one briefing the ALE divers on how to handle the site.  He was the one who handled all the evidence that came out of the water.  He was the one who admits to personally sending the fabric sample to the FBI for testing.

Kyle Kingman: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim.

Kyle Kingman: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  Remember it was Richardson who said to us that he personally handled the evidence and sent it immediately to our FBI.

Kyle Kingman:  I don't know why the time is so long between the sample date (7-Jan) and when the FBI claims to have received the items (22-Jan). Richardson claims to have personally sent the items immediately to the FBI. He didn't say anything about it being sent anywhere else. The FBI claims half the samples were sent to Holland for analysis. Richardson says the FBI got it all

Conclusion

Kyle Kingman: John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship. I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.

++++++++

Kermit - Scared Monkeys

 

[SunnyinTX]

Forgive me for the bad memory, who is the guy in the coffin??? The name is familiar..

I stopped following the case regularly in 2007, as it was too aggrevating to keep up with all the lies coming from Joran, and ARUBA, however, I checked in here and there when something happened or read up a little..
You Monkeys are the best source for the information on this case and many other cases, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart that you are relentless in finding the truth..

I have never stopped thinking of Natalee, her family or you Monkeys...Now I'm praying that Dave and Beth get the only thing they have ever wanted, Natalee, home in her country and CLOSURE.. they need to heal desperately...God Bless them...

Hi Ozzie's,  I did the same,  stopped coming here regularly in 07, It was frustrating for sure.  I still check in here too.

 Haven't had much response to ANY of the posts I have made the past 2 weeks but I suspect that is because people don't remember me.

Good to see some of the older posters back.

I remember both of you...don't feel that your posts are being ignored....things have been moving so quickly and for several days the forum was overwhelmed with members and visitors, that it would go down....good to see both of you back

[Lifesong]

Sea Searcher

  I agree with your last post.  I, too, am so hopeful.

I do want to be clear for the sake of everyone reading on this thread, though.  This most recent discussion about the possibilities of Natalee being found are based purely on conjecture and rumors - nothing concrete whatsoever!

Nancy Grace made a couple of references in her opening and even had an "expert" obviously already lined up to be on the show, who was then only asked one general question towards the end of the show.  Keep in mind, all of these "news" shows have producers on the island now (I wouldn't call them "spys" as someone said earlier, lol.)

Steph Watts titled his blog this weekend something about 'Aruba, the calm before the storm', and referred to having knowledge that would be seen as really good that he was not yet able to discuss on his show.

Some of us have just taken these clues and started hoping and praying that it all means something.

[MisGivings]

I've been following SM since the very early days and I almost never have posted, but I must say that I love (and I use that word cautiously given the absolute wretchedness of this situation) watching Joran paraded through those crowds of angry press and members of the public - especially that video of him with a towel around his neck trying to duck and getting pushed/pulled into that van to be taken to prison. What an absolutely shocking turn of events for that animal - to finally be treated as an animal instead of some sort of untouchable prince that he seems to think he is.

I find it impossible to guess what the adjustment to living in such conditions will do to him. I find it hard to imagine that it will lead to him being honest about where Natalee is (which I'm not even sure if I think he knows) but at the end of the day I can't stay off this site, constantly hoping that the very next post is the one that says she's been found.

The sadness is nearly unbearable. How I feel for the families. How heartbreaking for a family whose biggest hope in life is that their daughter be found dead, rather than not being found at all.

God bless you all.

I feel bad for Stephany's father because it was reported had a fight before she left home Friday evening.

[SunnyinTX]

I am relishing the fact that Peru will not return Aruba's phone calls. lol --How sweet that is!

Aruba is probably calling Peru, Missouri!!

[Lifesong]

IF Natalee's skull shows up.......it has to be from the cage.....MHO

MHO as well.  Interesting that the Dr. on NG referred to a skull not only still having lots of DNA, but also able to show signs of trauma/injury AND possibly of drowning....I wondered if that includes how long in the water?

Good Morning, billb!

[SunnyinTX]

I've been following SM since the very early days and I almost never have posted, but I must say that I love (and I use that word cautiously given the absolute wretchedness of this situation) watching Joran paraded through those crowds of angry press and members of the public - especially that video of him with a towel around his neck trying to duck and getting pushed/pulled into that van to be taken to prison. What an absolutely shocking turn of events for that animal - to finally be treated as an animal instead of some sort of untouchable prince that he seems to think he is.

I find it impossible to guess what the adjustment to living in such conditions will do to him. I find it hard to imagine that it will lead to him being honest about where Natalee is (which I'm not even sure if I think he knows) but at the end of the day I can't stay off this site, constantly hoping that the very next post is the one that says she's been found.

The sadness is nearly unbearable. How I feel for the families. How heartbreaking for a family whose biggest hope in life is that their daughter be found dead, rather than not being found at all.

God bless you all.

Hi jules.....glad to see you posting....like you I keep hoping the next post will be the one!!! 

[cajun miracle]

Don't know what to think but sure am glad that that murdering Urine is where he deserves to be. Praying that all of this news from Aruba will be great news for Dave and Beth.

Do we know if they will do exclusive TV in his cell again? That was awesome! Thanks to all who bring us the news so fast.

Have a great week Monkeys! Justice IS coming!!!!!!!!! Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

PS Even the View mentioned him!! LOL!

[SunnyinTX]

Whoever photoshopped it then did a really good job.  I didn't think it was photoshopped.  I figured it was a birth deformity.

Good Morning Monks....  I have to ask....what picture are you talking about?  I decided I'd only go back 10 pages this morning and hopefully be caught up....oooopppppsssss  guess not! 

IMO too many people in Aruba for something NOT to be up.

Why would Beth be in Peru?  I would have to see it first.

Any why would joran fire his attorney? 

too darn many why's this morning......hopefully some answers as I continue reading

This one

aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh thanks Klass....I do remember this teenyweeney picture!! 

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Monkeys! I'm trying to figure out why Joran would choose the floor over the mattress in his cell. I guess he's convinced the mattress has crabs or something? Looking at that floor, it would be a hard choice for me.

I'd be surprised, personally, if NG had exclusive info that other media did not have.

FOX: Dave is in Aruba trying to find out from Aruban Authorities if they have been able to get anything from Peru to further the investigation of Natalee's location.

[billb's daughter]

IF Natalee's skull shows up.......it has to be from the cage.....MHO

MHO as well.  Interesting that the Dr. on NG referred to a skull not only still having lots of DNA, but also able to show signs of trauma/injury AND possibly of drowning....I wondered if that includes how long in the water?

Good Morning, billb!

Good morning to you too, Lifesong....
And Good morning to all Good Monkeys...
I am hopeful something good will happen for Natalee and family soon.......
Can't post much during the day (work kinda discourages that) but will peek in from time to time hoping for the Good news....

[Edward]

Bed Bugs

[Edward]

Lice

Maggots

Rat Poop and Pee


Joran should feel right at home.

[Sea Searcher]

Janet,

Thanks for posting the Kyle Kingman report...I had left for a while around that time and was never able to catch up on what had happened with the cage..that sums it up nicely

SS

[Gypsy DD]

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After reports circulate that Natalee`s skull discovered, as details of Van Der Sloot`s blackmail plot emerge and Aruban authorities head to Peru, has Van Der Sloot admitted his own father, Judge Paulus Van Der Sloot, helped hide Natalee`s body? And is he set from behind the walls of a Peruvian jailhouse to confess to the murder of Natalee Holloway?

So the house that he pointed to for $25000 was the spot? And Tim used sonar and found the skull?
Speculating of course.

No, IIRC, Tim said they didn't find anything there.. I have no idea where Nancy Grace got this info, and she is the only show reporting it as far as I can tell...The Monkeys usually have the info before she does anyway!

I was thinking that Tim said authorities there did their own search with sonar not him. I know he did one area, but remember when Aruba authorities took over the lobster trap and would not let the original ones searching or Tim around them. They even demanded IIRC that Tim be put off the search boat which started the search

I think that NH's remains were found by Arba officials when they did the search of the fish trap.  Aruban officials took the things they found and it was weeks before they actually sent anything to the FBI, which probably wasn't the same articles.  I always believed that skull was hers, and the clothing scraps were hers.  I think someone hid them ..for insurance against others talking.

Odd that the older LE official died of a heart condition a day before Juran left Aruba for Peru.  And then now, in the last few days, didn't someone else in LE in Aruba die , at the age of 31, of a heart attack?  Thet are dropping like flies of heart conditions aren't they?