Natalee Case Discussion #839 6/14/10 - 6/17/10

[klaasend]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

I believe there were human remains in the trap but have no way of knowing who's.

[Blonde]

Robin Holloway - December, 2007

Dave is currently on his way home to Meridian. Beth is on her way back also. They met with the KLPD and OM yesterday. I guess there is a miscommunication between interrogation and questioning. They had a lot of questions for Dave and Beth in efforts to help Natalee’s case and dispel a lot of nasty rumours. Also, Dave and Beth had a lot of questions for them too in regards to Natalee’s case. The meeting went well and they are working hard, but we don’t know what will happen next and pray this water search will turn up something.
 
As far as Julia, we have stayed in contact with her and she truly does care for Natalee and wants to know what happened to her as much as anyone else. Dave was able to meet with Mark for a little while last night while he was there and had a nice visit. It is good to know they are still there and willing to help. Please know they are still there too for Natalee ....
 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2409.msg311317#msg311317

Yes I could tell that from his bashing posts.
<snip>
Find all posts by MIP6
Add MIP6 to Your Buddy List

That would be your opinion and now here is mine as to why Beth thought the foremost important thing to do when she arrived in Aruba was to establish Natalees character as one of a virginal, non-drinking, perfect teen.
Because that’s what sells!!!!
Your average run of the mill teenager who might have drank in the past or tried pot or even, God forbid, engage in sexual activity would get little to no press coverage.
Not that it should matter as to someone’s character or not, but apparently Beth felt that it was so she spun the tale that would later prove to be not so.
If Natalee is of the character described by her mother what on earth would she be going on this trip for, since all in MB where well aware of what the group would be doing during there senior trip due to the past years of other senior class’s from MB visiting Aruba, an all inclusive drink & eat as much as you can before you pass out party festival.
Was her role suppose to be one of the wallflower sitting in the corner by herself, reading her Bible while the rest of her classmates partied like rock stars?

He loves to bash Beth and Robin loves to read his bashing of Beth.

So true Blonde.....she is so jealous of Beth...in every way!!

She has good to be jealous of Beth.

[klaasend]

A scenario..

Beth in Peru.. Dave in Aruba

Visiting hours happen.. Joran You have a visitor.. :}

A beautiful woman has come to visit.
It is Beth Reynolds/Holloway/Twitty.. Jorans worst nightmare. :}

Questions..
Beth speaks...  Joran, Where is Natalee Buried ?

Joran.. She is buried under the baseball stadium.

Beth Makes A phone call to Dave...
   Dave is that You ?? Natalee is under the baseball stadium !!

Dave looks.. Nope she is not Beth.

Beth .. Joran you are a born Liar. Try Again. Nice crewcut by the way have you changed your clothes latley ?  You are gonna be in here for a long time.
 

Edward - could be!

[Tamikosmom]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

Shan

I am convinced that in all probability that Natalee Holloway's remain were in the trap.  However ... considering that ... according to Kyle Kingman ... John Silvetti afforded unchallenged the contents of the trap to the Aruban ... the absolute truth is blowing in the wind.

I only compiled the following quotes of Kyle Kingman ... quotes which Kermit brought over to the SM forum from a private forum.

Janet

+++++++

THE PERSISTENCE STORY

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS

December 25, 2007 - Sonar Discover
December 29, 2007 - 1st ROV Dive
December 30, 2007 - Visual Dive and 2nd ROV Dive
January 07, 2008 - Recovery Dive and 3rd ROV Dive


KYLE KINGMAN - KEY PERSONNEL

Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Introduction

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.

December 25, 2007 and December 29, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning.  I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective was John Silvetti.  At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

December 30, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.  He couldn't tell by his own admission.
 
Kyle Kingman:  By Tim's (Trahan) own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

January 07, 2008

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman:  Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman:  The bags were removed just after the ROV got out of the way when the divers took the samples to their boat.... and took off.

Kyle Kingman: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

Kyle Kingman:    Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.  He was the one briefing the ALE divers on how to handle the site.  He was the one who handled all the evidence that came out of the water.  He was the one who admits to personally sending the fabric sample to the FBI for testing.

Kyle Kingman: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim.

Kyle Kingman: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  Remember it was Richardson who said to us that he personally handled the evidence and sent it immediately to our FBI.

Kyle Kingman:  I don't know why the time is so long between the sample date (7-Jan) and when the FBI claims to have received the items (22-Jan). Richardson claims to have personally sent the items immediately to the FBI. He didn't say anything about it being sent anywhere else. The FBI claims half the samples were sent to Holland for analysis. Richardson says the FBI got it all

Conclusion

Kyle Kingman: John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship. I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.

Kyle Kingman: The logs are in a safe somewhere. John and Ryan Poff (one of John's project managers) knows where it is. I can't get copies of the logs at this time. Perhaps in a few months. The target locations are in the safe, although I also have them in a safe spot.  I don't care about the other targets though. I don't think any of it is of any potential interest. Mainly junk, coral, and debris.

Kyle Kingman:  Several hours of footage were of other (ROV) dives on other targets. None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

_____

[Tamikosmom]

You guys, i really don't think it's fair you all to be bashing Robin Holloway. She has been living a hell on earth as well for the past 5 years & Dave does have 2 daughters with her, the oldest of which looks just like Natalee. i see them daily during the school year when I'm picking my granddaughter up at school & at school functions. I know them both. They are very sweet gentle people. I would imagine that they all wish they had their life back at certain times but that sounds like something that maybe should have been kept between her & Dave. That in no way would take away her love for Natalee. That just sounds like gossip & should be taken as such, but that's JMO FWIW

I appreciate and understand your opinion Monken.

Mine?  I don't think it's fair (and that's as kind as I can be) that Robin Holloway not only tolerates, but befriends those who trash Natalee and Beth, have done so from the start - and continue to do so.

And I'll just stop there.

EXACTLY!!!

[BUCKSHOT]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

I believe there were human remains in the trap but have no way of knowing who's.

Sure was fishy (no pun intended):
In Aruba to search for trap/cage, which went mssing at time of disappearance from FH.
Trap/Cage located as target in ocean. Dive stalled with diversions.
Low and behold, super secretive police filled rubber dingy boat secretly dives on site.
Contents are recovered and the scene is hastily fleed.
It is never spoken of again. The experts aboard clearly feel remains were in the cage.

You be the Judge....If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, what is it?

[Blonde]

Robin Holloway - December, 2007

Dave is currently on his way home to Meridian. Beth is on her way back also. They met with the KLPD and OM yesterday. I guess there is a miscommunication between interrogation and questioning. They had a lot of questions for Dave and Beth in efforts to help Natalee’s case and dispel a lot of nasty rumours. Also, Dave and Beth had a lot of questions for them too in regards to Natalee’s case. The meeting went well and they are working hard, but we don’t know what will happen next and pray this water search will turn up something.
 
As far as Julia, we have stayed in contact with her and she truly does care for Natalee and wants to know what happened to her as much as anyone else. Dave was able to meet with Mark for a little while last night while he was there and had a nice visit. It is good to know they are still there and willing to help. Please know they are still there too for Natalee ....
 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2409.msg311317#msg311317

Yes I could tell that from his bashing posts.
<snip>
Find all posts by MIP6
Add MIP6 to Your Buddy List

That would be your opinion and now here is mine as to why Beth thought the foremost important thing to do when she arrived in Aruba was to establish Natalees character as one of a virginal, non-drinking, perfect teen.
Because that’s what sells!!!!
Your average run of the mill teenager who might have drank in the past or tried pot or even, God forbid, engage in sexual activity would get little to no press coverage.
Not that it should matter as to someone’s character or not, but apparently Beth felt that it was so she spun the tale that would later prove to be not so.
If Natalee is of the character described by her mother what on earth would she be going on this trip for, since all in MB where well aware of what the group would be doing during there senior trip due to the past years of other senior class’s from MB visiting Aruba, an all inclusive drink & eat as much as you can before you pass out party festival.
Was her role suppose to be one of the wallflower sitting in the corner by herself, reading her Bible while the rest of her classmates partied like rock stars?

He loves to bash Beth and Robin loves to read his bashing of Beth.

So true Blonde.....she is so jealous of Beth...in every way!!

She has good to be jealous of Beth.

Self edit She should be jealous of Beth.

[BUCKSHOT]

Aruban posters want us to believe that the trap/cage was filled with exotic hermit crabs.

Haha...I forgot about that book - "Aruba: Home to Planet Earth's Most Exotic Hermit Crab Species"

[Angiex911dsptchr]

You guys, i really don't think it's fair you all to be bashing Robin Holloway. She has been living a hell on earth as well for the past 5 years & Dave does have 2 daughters with her, the oldest of which looks just like Natalee. i see them daily during the school year when I'm picking my granddaughter up at school & at school functions. I know them both. They are very sweet gentle people. I would imagine that they all wish they had their life back at certain times but that sounds like something that maybe should have been kept between her & Dave. That in no way would take away her love for Natalee. That just sounds like gossip & should be taken as such, but that's JMO FWIW

I appreciate and understand your opinion Monken.

Mine?  I don't think it's fair (and that's as kind as I can be) that Robin Holloway not only tolerates, but befriends those who trash Natalee and Beth, have done so from the start - and continue to do so.

And I'll just stop there.

EXACTLY!!!

  SOrry Monken.. But I do agree with Jen and Janet...  Its very sad to say the least.

Later peeps..

[jen3560]

THANK YOU to all Monkeys who are posting on Steph's blog!!

Hopefully  some answers can be found!

[jen3560]

Hi Ang!

Bye Ang!!

:KISSES:

[klaasend]

THANK YOU to all Monkeys who are posting on Steph's blog!!

Hopefully  some answers can be found!

It was good to see Charlierat posting too!

[Angiex911dsptchr]

Hi Ang!

Bye Ang!!

:KISSES:

 Smooches back at yah sweety !!       <busy with my Morgan> 

[klaasend]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/LEzAolCTSdU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x006699&amp;color2=0x54abd6&amp;border=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/LEzAolCTSdU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;color1=0x006699&amp;color2=0x54abd6&amp;border=1</a>

[AZSunny]

Did anyone see this. Could it be real?

http://stephww.wordpress.com/


CharlieRat Posted June 15, 2010 at 8:48 am Permalink Reply

It’s finally time for Aruba to give Natalee back, Lord knows they covered this case up since the beginning. I, for one, want to apologize for all the destructive actions I have caused.


Wow, he really said this?   He's more of a human than I thought....  He can apologize

Klaas said she didn't think that was him posting.  I agree with her.

[kimi1230]

Did we ever find out for sure if Beth is in Peru?

[Tamikosmom]

THANK YOU to all Monkeys who are posting on Steph's blog!!

Hopefully  some answers can be found!

It was good to see Charlierat posting too!

Klaas

Are you aware of any posts submitted by Charlierat on the other forums that reflect this change of heart?

Janet

[Blue Moon]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

I do strongly believe those were Natalee's remains.  Sad part is it can never be proved because Aruba remove it and U.S. citizens set back and allowed it to happen.  JMO

[darleenofalabama]

Hi, Y'all; OK, I'm back; hospital banking hours (oh, all right, continuing ed inservices) are over for today. 

Jen, I am going to heartily agree with you about Robin befriending, in any way, the people who are helping with the cover-up in Natalee's case; that is the lowest, and also would mean that she's friendly with people who are even involved with whoever is stalking and attempting to menace Dave even today.  Perhaps, Monken, if you are on friendly terms with Robin, you might mention to her how bad some of her actions look to people on the side of justice for Natalee; perhaps, once this is called to her attention, she will realize the error of such actions.

As for that multiple murderer playing cards with the hitman next door, he's probably mentioned that he trumps the hitman, i.e. JVDS is a MULTIPLE murderer.  Also, maybe he will cheat at cards and see how the hitman takes that; he might have to strangle him or something, even if he doesn't want to.

[BUCKSHOT]

Joran (Inmate #32690).

Anita, don't forget to write that on your envelopes to Castro Castro prison.