Natalee Case Discussion #839 6/14/10 - 6/17/10

[darleenofalabama]

Janet, I believe that I can tell you right now that Klaasand wrote that tongue-in-cheek.

[darleenofalabama]

Good point, Buckshot; and can you believe they assigned him that number--everybody knows his number is 666, at least twice.

[Shell]

http://www.newsoxy.com/world/holloway-dad-and-answers-13379.html

Holloway Dad and Answers Revealed

By: Kara Gilmour
Staff Writer
Published: Jun 15, 2010

Holloway dad and answers revealed in Natalee Holloway's disappearance. Natalee Holloway's dad met with Aruban authorities to seek new clues that could provide some answers. Joran van der Sloot has promised Holloway's dad information and answers to the location of her body, but he wanted money from the family.

"He's very saddened," Tim Miller, a friend and the founder of Texas EquuSearch that has repeatedly searched for the missing daughter since 2005, said in a statement. "He feels that if the Arubans had done their job, Joran would be in jail and Stephany would be alive." Miller has been staying with the Holloway family in Aruba but hasn't attended the meetings.

Dave Holloway planned to discuss the latest developments with prosecutors and investigators. He wants to know if there has been any new information provided by Joran van der Sloot since his arrest for the killing of a 21-year-old woman in Peru. Sloot was jailed Friday on charges of killing business student Stephany Flores on May 30 in a Lima hotel.

Sloot has changed his story on many occasions. The stories are either lies or something he made up in an effort to bargain. The suspect now wants a deal to go to Arbua because he wants better prison conditions than what they offer in Peru.

"The suspect now wants a deal to go to Arbua because he wants better prison conditions than what they offer in Peru."

Well Joran, you do not get to choose your conditions. He is unreal. He can't grasp the fact that he is not in control. He uses the remains of a dead girl as his leverage. I can't wait until he is thrown in with the general prison population. Throw him to the wolves.

[BUCKSHOT]

I love when Joran looks up at the camera in the hotel hallway.

I am no mind reader, but the look on his face speaks volumes.
It says, "OH SHIT, I HOPE THAT IS ONLY A SMOKE DETECTOR"

[klaasend]

THANK YOU to all Monkeys who are posting on Steph's blog!!

Hopefully  some answers can be found!

It was good to see Charlierat posting too!

Klaas

Are you aware of any posts submitted by Charlierat on the other forums that reflect this change of heart?

Janet

NO and he has recently posted again at RU.  His position remains unchanged as far as I can tell.

[Blue Moon]

You guys, i really don't think it's fair you all to be bashing Robin Holloway. She has been living a hell on earth as well for the past 5 years & Dave does have 2 daughters with her, the oldest of which looks just like Natalee. i see them daily during the school year when I'm picking my granddaughter up at school & at school functions. I know them both. They are very sweet gentle people. I would imagine that they all wish they had their life back at certain times but that sounds like something that maybe should have been kept between her & Dave. That in no way would take away her love for Natalee. That just sounds like gossip & should be taken as such, but that's JMO FWIW

I appreciate and understand your opinion Monken.

Mine?  I don't think it's fair (and that's as kind as I can be) that Robin Holloway not only tolerates, but befriends those who trash Natalee and Beth, have done so from the start - and continue to do so.

And I'll just stop there.

All I am going to say is I have an email from Robin and BELIEVE me it was not a very nice email.  I got caught between a poster (not here) who emailed me that Robin hated Beth and wasn't long Robin emailed me back and it was not a nice email.  I had nothing to do with it and only got caught in the middle.  I have not posted every again at that site.

[SunnyinTX]

Did anyone see this. Could it be real?

http://stephww.wordpress.com/


CharlieRat Posted June 15, 2010 at 8:48 am Permalink Reply

It’s finally time for Aruba to give Natalee back, Lord knows they covered this case up since the beginning. I, for one, want to apologize for all the destructive actions I have caused.

not THE charlierat...............

[carpe noctem]

I love when Joran looks up at the camera in the hotel hallway.

I am no mind reader, but the look on his face speaks volumes.
It says, "OH SHIT, I HOPE THAT IS ONLY A SMOKE DETECTOR"

Yep, he knew.

If it has a hole in it... Joran can identify it.

[JusticeDawg]

I am not a prophet here nor do I claim to possess any phophecies, but I am claiming that Natalee's body will be discovered before July 4th, 2010.

Too many things are now unraveling in favor of a discovery of the body. The vice grip is on Joran and now it is in his favor to, so he thinks, to solve the Holloway case. He knows and it is as simple as saying "where."

July 4th, the count down begins.. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

[darleenofalabama]

Everybody knows that lying, manipulating, #666x2 is a multiple murderer; perhaps he's buried so many bodies, he's not sure where he put who.

[Shan1628]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

Shan

I am convinced that in all probability that Natalee Holloway's remain were in the trap.  However ... considering that ... according to Kyle Kingman ... John Silvetti afforded unchallenged the contents of the trap to the Aruban ... the absolute truth is blowing in the wind.

I only compiled the following quotes of Kyle Kingman ... quotes which Kermit brought over to the SM forum from a private forum.

Janet

+++++++

THE PERSISTENCE STORY

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS

December 25, 2007 - Sonar Discover
December 29, 2007 - 1st ROV Dive
December 30, 2007 - Visual Dive and 2nd ROV Dive
January 07, 2008 - Recovery Dive and 3rd ROV Dive


KYLE KINGMAN - KEY PERSONNEL

Field Project Manager, Geophysical Engineer and Marine Geologist - Responsible for side scan sonar acquisition, digital processing, analysis, and target identification. Kyle will assist in side scan sonar operation and guide the ROV (remotely operated vehicle) team to each sonar target.


KYLE KINGMAN - IN HIS OWN WORDS

Introduction

Kyle Kingman:  While we were searching shortly before Christmas, we were contacted by an Aruban detective who was involved in the Holloway case.

Kyle Kingman:  I think he used his brother and gave us only the amount of information he felt we needed to come across the trap.

December 25, 2007 and December 29, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  I found the trap on 1:45am Christmas morning.  I got the OK to begin our ROV dive series for the 29th, so I made it our first dive. We got visual of the fish trap and that it was suspicious. Basically, the fish trap door was open and there appeared to be a skull and torso-shape in sand on the door inside the trap Reviewing the 29-Dec video I noticed the torso shape in sand had a 90 degree angle and that the sand was supported from falling through the bottom of the trap, which was slightly excavated by currents. I proportioned out the distance from the top of the head, to shoulder, to that 90 degree angle and it was a match to Natalee's photo of her standing -head, to shoulder, to the end of her denim skirt. I showed TM the proportional match and the possibility of a skirt under the sand and he said he's going to tell the parents. I said definitely not until we sample the trap and get results. He made the call to Dave and Beth independently.

Kyle Kingman: The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap. I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day. I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at. My heart broke for Dave and Beth.  Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th. I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective was John Silvetti.  At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive.

December 30, 2007

Kyle Kingman:  On the morning of the 30th we met on board the Persistence with Hans Mos, Richardson, and the rest of the police brass and dive division. I showed them all the 29th dive video and they agreed that it was very suspicion and looked promising. Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman:  I requested all samples to be brought on board the Persistence for visual and top-side photographs. It was ignored by the project lead (John S.) who felt the Arubans would follow whatever they needed to do as far as proper protocol.

Kyle Kingman:  Later that day 30-Dec we conducted the dive with the Aruban divers along with our own Tim Trahan.  He couldn't tell by his own admission.
 
Kyle Kingman:  By Tim's (Trahan) own admission, his observation of the inside of the trap (lasting a few seconds) was inconclusive

Kyle Kingman:  The Arubans told us there wasn't anything of interest in the trap based on the visual-only inspection (Dateline and Tim Miller present).

Kyle Kingman:  John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant.

Kyle Kingman:  It's unanimous that Tim M. should never have told Dave and Beth anything about the trap until it's contents were forensically examined.  After the diver visual inspection of the trap he was obligated to report what the Aruban divers reported because although limited, it's the only information he had and the family rightfully wanted answers. It was a royal mess.

Kyle Kingman:  Aruban divers deemed the cage to be not case related, and therefore Aruba had no interest in it.  At that point, I made the statement to all on board that we do have an interest and that we would recover the cage ourselves.  That is when Mos said they would dive on it but it would take 1 -2 weeks for a forensics team to arrive and that he would let Persistence know.

Kyle Kingman:  The FBI said they needed an invitation. I brought it up to Mos and Richardson and they were talking as if it were a possibility along with a Dutch forensic team. Mos said it would take about 10-14 days to have a Dutch forensic team on site. Never heard another word about it.

Kyle Kingman:  After the Dec 30th dive John [Silvetti] didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability. I don't know what that exactly means, but Tim wasn't hurting anything except releasing the statements to the press and Holloways that we found Natalee.

Kyle Kingman: He (Tim Miller) stepped off on or about the 1st of Jan to follow up on the false lead in Costa Rica IIRC.

January 07, 2008

Kyle Kingman:  For Jan 7th, Eduardo wasn't on the boat, neither were any media, Tim Miller, or Tim Trahan.

Kyle Kingman: The Persistence had no divers on the 7th. Tim Trahan was our diver on the 30th-Dec, but he was out of the country at the time. The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat.

Kyle Kingman:  Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF

Kyle Kingman: In my opinion, the blue fabric is quite possibly Natalee's skirt. The divers found the denim where I suggested a week earlier (Dec 29th) to Tim Miller that there was likely Natalee's denim skirt under the sand. Also in my opinion, the deni-like fabric is a match in terms of color, quantity, and structure to Natalee's skirt.

Kyle Kingman: The fabric(s?) are not visible on either the Dec 29th or 30th dives. There is about an inch of sand over the fabrics. The fabrics are completely covered. The diver sampled the sand and found the fabric underneath the sand. He then bagged the blue fabric. If the other bag contains fabric, it was also in the sand.

Kyle Kingman:  The bags were removed just after the ROV got out of the way when the divers took the samples to their boat.... and took off.

Kyle Kingman: They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th.

Kyle Kingman: I get done in the survey room backing up the ROV dive and head to the back deck to talk to the Polis divers and see what they sampled and see the Polis boat way in the distance heading away fast. John doesn't seem concerned at all, but I am very dissapointed, concerned, and burning inside because I have a feeling that I/we will never know what they took from the trap. That evening I talked to John asking when we plan on recovering the trap. Previously this was part of the talks and plan, but this time he doesn't seem concerned about ever looking into the trap further. After John verbally BASHED me about the trap for what I said to Tim Miller about the sand body-form and that I believed her skirt was under the sand, John pretty much committed himself to the belief the trap wasn't what we were after. This shocked me because it was exactly what we were looking for- a fish trap lost at sea with human remains.

Kyle Kingman:  Richardson told us after the Jan-7th dive to keep searching in deep water. John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again. Of course this didn't set well with me.

Kyle Kingman:    Richardson was very quick to dismiss the trap as case-relevant. Richardson was insisting that we keep looking FAR out to sea in very deep water.  He was the one briefing the ALE divers on how to handle the site.  He was the one who handled all the evidence that came out of the water.  He was the one who admits to personally sending the fabric sample to the FBI for testing.

Kyle Kingman: It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim.

Kyle Kingman: We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.

Kyle Kingman:  Remember it was Richardson who said to us that he personally handled the evidence and sent it immediately to our FBI.

Kyle Kingman:  I don't know why the time is so long between the sample date (7-Jan) and when the FBI claims to have received the items (22-Jan). Richardson claims to have personally sent the items immediately to the FBI. He didn't say anything about it being sent anywhere else. The FBI claims half the samples were sent to Holland for analysis. Richardson says the FBI got it all

Conclusion

Kyle Kingman: John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship. I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.

Kyle Kingman: The logs are in a safe somewhere. John and Ryan Poff (one of John's project managers) knows where it is. I can't get copies of the logs at this time. Perhaps in a few months. The target locations are in the safe, although I also have them in a safe spot.  I don't care about the other targets though. I don't think any of it is of any potential interest. Mainly junk, coral, and debris.

Kyle Kingman:  Several hours of footage were of other (ROV) dives on other targets. None were of any relevance. Most targets were of peculiar coral pinnacles, man-made debris, and ship wrecks.

_____

Thank you all for your info.  I completely understand now why I hear such a wide variety of opinions regarding that dive for Natalee's remains.  Not just here...all over, internet, news, etc.  I know you all have been on top of this case since the beginning and most of you have more knowledge than anyone else, period!  You guys are the best!  Truly passionate about what you do!  Justice for Natalee and Stefany. 

[Gypsy DD]

Hi Rob-

I am frustrated and worried but I also haven't seen anything to date from Peru, but swift and definitive action toward justice for Stephany's murder. Sometimes we have to rely on what people do and not what they say, I also don't think Aruba can or will push Peru to share anything they do not choose to. The measure of respect they have afforded Stephany's parents in this process is heartening and hopefully, that relationship will be beneficial for Natalee's case also.

At this point I am willing to trust Mr Flores to ensure he's watching over this not just for Stephany but also for Natalee.

Completey agree nonesuche!

This what I have been trying to point out.  The article is from an Aruban official saying that they hope for cooperation.

What I read was  today Peru returned a call made 2 weeks ago, by Aruba..and said..fill out the paperwork if you want to send investigators here.  I have not seen Peru say they could come, nor what they would share.  I still believe Peru wants to know who let JVDS out of Aruba in the first place.  I don't see anywhere in the article where Peru said we will share.

[thirdstrike]

Is there a copy of the entire transcript of the confession that we can read from beginning to end?

[Blue Moon]

You guys, i really don't think it's fair you all to be bashing Robin Holloway. She has been living a hell on earth as well for the past 5 years & Dave does have 2 daughters with her, the oldest of which looks just like Natalee. i see them daily during the school year when I'm picking my granddaughter up at school & at school functions. I know them both. They are very sweet gentle people. I would imagine that they all wish they had their life back at certain times but that sounds like something that maybe should have been kept between her & Dave. That in no way would take away her love for Natalee. That just sounds like gossip & should be taken as such, but that's JMO FWIW

I appreciate and understand your opinion Monken.

Mine?  I don't think it's fair (and that's as kind as I can be) that Robin Holloway not only tolerates, but befriends those who trash Natalee and Beth, have done so from the start - and continue to do so.

And I'll just stop there.

All I am going to say is I have an email from Robin and BELIEVE me it was not a very nice email.  I got caught between a poster (not here) who emailed me that Robin hated Beth and wasn't long Robin emailed me back and it was not a nice email.  I had nothing to do with it and only got caught in the middle.  I have not posted every  ever again at that site.

corrected  "every" for "ever"

[Shan1628]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

I believe there were human remains in the trap but have no way of knowing who's.

Sure was fishy (no pun intended):
In Aruba to search for trap/cage, which went mssing at time of disappearance from FH.
Trap/Cage located as target in ocean. Dive stalled with diversions.
Low and behold, super secretive police filled rubber dingy boat secretly dives on site.
Contents are recovered and the scene is hastily fleed.
It is never spoken of again. The experts aboard clearly feel remains were in the cage.

You be the Judge....If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, what is it?

BUCKSHOT,
I am wondering how the Aruban authorities would answer this?!!!! 

[Monken]

Hi, Y'all; OK, I'm back; hospital banking hours (oh, all right, continuing ed inservices) are over for today. 

Jen, I am going to heartily agree with you about Robin befriending, in any way, the people who are helping with the cover-up in Natalee's case; that is the lowest, and also would mean that she's friendly with people who are even involved with whoever is stalking and attempting to menace Dave even today.  Perhaps, Monken, if you are on friendly terms with Robin, you might mention to her how bad some of her actions look to people on the side of justice for Natalee; perhaps, once this is called to her attention, she will realize the error of such actions.

As for that multiple murderer playing cards with the hitman next door, he's probably mentioned that he trumps the hitman, i.e. JVDS is a MULTIPLE murderer.  Also, maybe he will cheat at cards and see how the hitman takes that; he might have to strangle him or something, even if he doesn't want to.

Darleen what bad actions are you talking about? Do you seriously  believe that she would encourage someone to stalk her husband? That's ridiculous! Of course she wants justice for Natalee, my God, who doesn't? Robin & Dave are nice to everyone, haven't you noticed that with Dave? The most I've seen is Robin answering a comment from someone that tells her they support them. I don't believe that either one of them are on friendly terms with anyone there that doesn't. Reading things that are posted online doesn't make them true, just keep that in mind. And that's all i care to say about it; that's just what I know.

[SunnyinTX]

Robin Holloway - December, 2007

Dave is currently on his way home to Meridian. Beth is on her way back also. They met with the KLPD and OM yesterday. I guess there is a miscommunication between interrogation and questioning. They had a lot of questions for Dave and Beth in efforts to help Natalee’s case and dispel a lot of nasty rumours. Also, Dave and Beth had a lot of questions for them too in regards to Natalee’s case. The meeting went well and they are working hard, but we don’t know what will happen next and pray this water search will turn up something.
 
As far as Julia, we have stayed in contact with her and she truly does care for Natalee and wants to know what happened to her as much as anyone else. Dave was able to meet with Mark for a little while last night while he was there and had a nice visit. It is good to know they are still there and willing to help. Please know they are still there too for Natalee ....
 
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2409.msg311317#msg311317

Good grief-how naive can you get????? 

Robin is not naive.......she is a real witch.....IMO...I was told from a very reliable source that she told him on more than one occasion that SHE WANTED HER LIFE BACK....Natalee was gone, he had 2 more daughters and he needed to move on. (she didn't bother to mention he also had a son) She said (not verbatim) that Beth caused many of the problems they had in Aruba......believe me she is not naive

Oh my word ...thanks for filling me in, Sunny.

no problem Ono....Robin has been a boil on my butt for years..

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, I believe that I can tell you right now that Klaasand wrote that tongue-in-cheek.

Without our emotion icons I cannot tell.

I am a believer in miracles.  If Charlierat can bow ... then so can others who have been behind the misinformation campaign established early on to take the focus off of the truth.  Charlierat main contribution to that campaign has been to despicably undermining the every word and action of Natalee Holloway's mother.

Janet

[Hat]

Do the majority of peeps that read/post here believe that the trap contained Natalee's remains?  Reading through posts of the past, it seems a great many believe that it did.  I am just curious in your opinion!  Thanks all

I believe there were human remains in the trap but have no way of knowing who's.

Personally, I never thought that. Seems to me that would have removed any chance of deniability. I think Joran's instinct has been to leave himself a way to lie out of his problems - until now of course.

Also, his early stories all involved the beach or ocean and a head injury. I think he is a berzerker that flips out when he does not get his own way, at least with weaker females. I always thought she died of head injuries and strangulation and was disposed of in the ocean with Paulus' help.

[darleenofalabama]

BlueMoon, you are entitled to your opinion and Robin nor anyone else is the boss of you.  It's really, really petty for someone to have such low self-esteem or to be in such dire need of attention that one can't put aside one's petty jealouses and make something as important as recovering the body of a dead girl the priorioty above all else.  I mean, really, the attention should be on justice for Natalee and her father shouldn't have stress added from those closest to him.