Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[EURobert]

Bring in the conspiracy-believers

Evidence for a conspiracy is growing (Google transl: Joran take to prove conspiracy)

The evidence that the FBI has had a major role in the run up to Joran stay in Peru will increase. Notes that John Joran van den Heuvel, who was visiting in jail.

Already known that the FBI was engaged in an undercover operation involving Joran, Beth Holloway could extort. In order to arrest him had Van der Sloot in Aruba, however, from only extradite drug criminals. Two days before Joran would travel to the Netherlands for treatment in an institution, however, Joran traveled to Peru for a poker tournament, hosted by poker player Garcia, who says the one hundred best poker players in the sport.

This poker player was also the one who after the murder of Stephany hotel staff had come into the room, allegedly because he thought that Joran and Stephany were abducted. These Garcia appears to have all the papers of a U.S. federal agent.

Camera Images
Then there are the camera images of Joran's room in and out. The hotel, however no cameras in the corridors hung, noted van den Heuvel. But Joran room were two cameras focused. It has, according to John van den Heuvel is every reason to believe that Joran is lured into a trap. After his arrest he claimed that Joran days was being watched by men.

Joran tells that the confessions by false pretenses are elicited. It was done before he had a lawyer and was told that if he confessed and he signed would be extradited to the Netherlands. Furthermore it may take at least another two years for the cause of Joran to court. Joran is currently in a privecel away from the other prisoners. Even if Joran gets marriage proposals from several Peruvian girls. Some even want his baby.

http://tinyurl.com/28tunae

[MisGivings]

Van der Sloot 'emotionally immature,' psych report says
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 21, 2010 11:01 p.m. EDT

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/21/peru.murder.case/index.html?hpt=T1


Lima, Peru (CNN) -- Joran van der Sloot has a low tolerance for frustration and "doesn't value the female role," according to excerpts from a psychological investigation report given to a judge by prosecutors Monday.

According to the document, van der Sloot, suspected of killing a Peruvian woman late last month, "does not tolerate when someone tries to contradict him. It generates in him a challenging attitude."

The report calls him "emotionally immature," which elicits strong changes in behavior that can send him out of control.

"He reflects a certain dominance over the opposite sex. He doesn't value the female role," the document states.

Its adds, "he presents traits of an anti-social personality" and is "indifferent towards others' well being."

Despite this, the report says, "he doesn't show any psychopathological trauma that impedes him from perceiving and evaluating reality."

Also Monday, Van der Sloot told the judge that his rights and due process were violated after his arrest in connection with the killing of Stefany Flores Ramirez, his attorney told CNN.

The judge will decide on the legality of van der Sloot's incarceration by Wednesday, lawyer Maximo Altez said. If the ruling is unfavorable to van der Sloot, Altez said he is prepared to appeal to the highest court.

While in front of the judge, however, van der Sloot declined to give a formal statement on the facts of the case, according to the court. The reason he gave was the ongoing motion for habeas corpus, which he hopes will nullify the statements he gave to police that led to his imprisonment.

Van der Sloot's decision will not hold up the legal proceedings against him, the court said.

Meanwhile, in a Dutch newspaper article published Monday, van der Sloot says he was "tricked" into confessing to the murder of Flores.

Peruvian police told him that if he signed the papers they gave him, he would be transferred to the Netherlands, he told De Telegraaf in a jail interview.

"In my blind panic I signed everything, but never knew what was written on them," he said.

Van der Sloot was twice arrested over the disappearance of Alabama teen Natalee Holloway in Aruba in 2005, but never charged.

His mother said Saturday he was mentally unwell, De Telegraaf reported in what it called an exclusive interview with her.

Van der Sloot went to Peru to escape having to enter the high security section of a psychiatric hospital, Anita van der Sloot said.

She said he suffered severe psychological distress at the early death of his father, for which he blamed himself, she said, without giving further details.

She did not deny that he killed Flores.

She said she spoke to him shortly before Flores died and soon after and that he sounded paranoid, saying he was being "followed and watched," De Telegraaf reported.

Van der Sloot's attorney, Altez, has maintained that the judge in the case should strike down van der Sloot's confession because he was not properly represented when he was interrogated.

But Peruvian police have defended the interrogation and said van der Sloot's confession was acquired legally.

According to transcripts of his confession, van der Sloot said he elbowed Flores in the face before strangling her and then suffocating her with his shirt.

The transcripts -- provided to CNN by a police source -- provide shocking details and give the public its first glimpse of why van der Sloot says the alleged murder took place. The source has not been named because he was not authorized to pass along the material.

"There was blood everywhere," van der Sloot said in the transcripts. "What am I going to do now. I had blood on my shirt. There was also blood on the bed, so, I took my shirt and put it on her face, pressing hard, until I killed Stephany."

Peruvian authorities have charged van der Sloot with murder.

Van der Sloot told authorities he attacked Flores on May 30 after she read an e-mail on his computer connected with the Holloway case.

In the transcript, van der Sloot said that after Flores read the e-mail, she punched him in the face.

"At that moment impulsively, with my right elbow I hit her in the face exactly on top of the nose," van der Sloot said. "I think she started to faint. It affected me so that I grabbed her from the neck and strangled her for a minute."

Van der Sloot said he had a quick thought to try and hide the body but instead fled.

He was arrested in Chile on June 3 and was returned the next day to Peru. Along with killing Flores, who had a broken neck, he took money and bank cards from her wallet, police said.

Van der Sloot told police in Chile a different story of how Flores died when he was arrested there, according to transcripts. He blamed the death on robbers who had waited for him at his hotel in Peru.

"There was a man coming from the access door with a knife in his hand," van der Sloot said. "The man with the knife hit her in the face, making her bleed through the nose."

But Peru authorities said they had overwhelming evidence pointing to van der Sloot, and when he was transferred to Peru, van der Sloot confessed to the crime, police said.

Van der Sloot said he was in Peru for a poker tournament and had met Flores while he was gambling.

Police have said they think van der Sloot killed Flores to steal money she won from gambling.

Van der Sloot offered a different motive.

"After I responded with hitting her, I feared that she would go to the police and they would detain me for what was an impulsive act," van der Sloot said. "I think I wanted to kill her because I wasn't thinking."

Van der Sloot is being held in a high-security area of the Miguel Castro Castro prison where only two of 10 cells are occupied, and he has no contact with inmates in the general prison population.

He is under guard 24 hours a day, authorities have said.

The only other inmate in the area is alleged Colombian hit man Hugo Trujillo Ospina. The two have spent some time together in a common area where there is a television set and weights made of broomsticks and soda bottles, authorities said.

There is the possibility that van der Sloot will be integrated with other segments of the prison population.

CNN's Francesca Church, Mayra Cuevas and Jean Casarez contributed to this report

Van der Sloot said that he hadn't been mistreated during interrogations. "But there was a big bowl of water next to the desk during one of the hearings. They said they would put my head in if I was not cooperating."

Yeah, right Joran, nothing in the transcripts.

[littletxlady]

In the last thread or so, I asked if Lourdes Flores was related to Stephany's dad. It was said it was not his wife. In exploring for L. Flores on uTube I found a blurb about her and Peruvian Airlines in it. It was also showing pictures of a race car driver before and after her data. The driver looked like Stephany's dad.

There is a reason, of which I am sorry to say I cannot tell now that I need to know if they are relatives. Lourdes Flores ran for President. I am not sure if she won or not. Stephany's dad ran for vice pres and President.

Would one of our Monkey family summarize what is going on from the beginning of this clip to about the 8:00 mark especially any data, relationships between the race car driver, Lourdes and Peruvian Airlines? I read somewhere that Lourdes is on their board, but wondered why they are referencing a race car drive in the blurb and who he is, and what race he was in. TIA

IBE    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1PiX90eC38&feature=related

The first news reports of Stephany's murder said she was stabbed to death. In the one interview with her father, he puts his finger to his neck like a cutting motion, but says he cannot talk about it because of her mother. I am beginning to think Joran managed to cut Stephany's throat to disable her.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003646-18.html?tag=page

Peruvian businessman Ricardo Flores, right, walks with an unidentified person during the wake of his daughter Ramirez in Lima, on June 2, 2010. Dutch citizen Joran Van der Sloot is being sought by Peruvian authorities for the murder of Flores' 21-year-old daughter Stephany in a Lima hotel.

the beginning of these pics
 http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003646.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

[klaasend]

klaas - I get a hung-up hourglass, then "Internet Explorer cannot display ..." message, when I click the link to the CBS site with crime scene photos.

(But something tells me you're working on this ... :smiley: )

Well I can't do much for YOU and the CBS site but I can post the photos.  I think I'll post in another thread because they are pretty graphic.

[pinkbanana]

Good Morning Monkeys

I have serious catching up to do.

Have a BLESSED day!!

pb

[seemeatthebeach]

A Right Perspective: Monsters hit a world away, close to home

    * By Marilyn Loeffel
    * Memphis Commercial Appeal
    * Posted June 22, 2010 at midnight


This is a tale of two monsters and two murders, in a metropolis and a modern-day Mayberry.

While these murders took place within a few days of each other, they were literally a world apart. One holds global interest; the other shocked our little corner of the world.

Joran van der Sloot was pampered and privileged. His parents coddled and protected him, reaching beyond enabling, perhaps as far as abetting him.

Already a prime suspect in the five-year-old missing person case of Natalee Holloway, he traveled to the city of Lima, Peru, to gamble. Holloway, an 18-year-old Alabama high school senior with Memphis ties, disappeared during a graduation trip to Aruba in May 2005.

After a late-night poker game last month, police report, van der Sloot returned to his Lima hotel room with a stranger. They had a little coffee, a little cocaine and a little alcohol.

By his own confession -- which he is now trying to recant -- when Stephany Flores discovered the identity of the man she went home with, van der Sloot hit her, choked her, smothered the life out of her, and then ate his breakfast.

Stephany was 21 years old. Then, police say, van der Sloot stole her money and her identity cards and lit out for Chile.

Meanwhile, this monster counted on money he had extorted from Natalee Holloway's family back in the United States to buy him a safe haven.

He offered to tell the family where her body is, apparently not to clear his conscience but to pad his wallet. I'd have paid him, too. We all seek closure to our worst nightmares.

Van der Sloot is being held in Castro Castro prison, reportedly a horrible facility. That is a fitting environment for a person used to living in a virtual garden of Eden. I've always felt bleeding hearts who whine about conditions in prisons get it wrong.

The incarceration itself should be a deterrent to crime. Hot meals, cable television and a fully stocked library with access to a computer and Internet add up to a better life than a lot of people have on the outside.

The maximum sentence for murder in Peru is a mere 35 years. If convicted, here's betting he'll never serve nearly that much time.

Maybe the Peruvian judicial system can drag its feet, taking its sweet time going to trial, like the Aruban authorities did when they investigated Natalee Holloway's disappearance.

The other murder took place 50 miles from Memphis. In all the years that TV's Andy and Barney patrolled Mayberry, they never investigated the unthinkable, a murder in Mayberry.

Lillian Wilson lived 80 years in her personal Mayberry. She retired from a nursing career to do volunteer work near Wynne, Ark., where she grew up.

She married there, reared two sons there and loved her small and simple world. She spent time serving the people and ministries of her lifelong church, Central United Methodist. She was not a member of an international jet set who goes home with strangers.

She was a grandmother who loved animals and served her Christ, which is what she was doing the day she was brutally murdered.

Mrs. Wilson was working on disaster relief for flood victims. She went by the church to gather supplies before a scheduled meeting to join her pastor at a partner church.

When she didn't show up, the pastor knew where to find her. Her lifeless body lay between the pews where she had worshipped all of her life.

There is poignant irony even in the alleged murder weapon, an altar cross. I've heard of people taking up their cross, bearing their cross, dying for the cause of the cross, being crucified on a cross. But this is a twisted fate, to be bludgeoned by the sacred symbol you once polished to prepare for the worship service.

Like Mrs. Wilson, I grew up going to small churches. What is called the worship center now, we called the sanctuary. That Sunday, however, church was no sanctuary for Lillian Wilson.

Police believe that like van der Sloot, the man charged with killing Mrs. Wilson took his victim's money and ran. Rene Patrick Bourassa reportedly used her credit cards and drove her stolen car to Washington state, where he was arrested and charged with capital murder.

At least Arkansas has the death penalty.

I doubt that van der Sloot or Bourassa -- both of whom must be considered innocent under the law until proven guilty -- spent much time in church. Moral monsters like the murderers who killed Stephany Flores and Lillian Wilson usually don't.

Mrs. Wilson did, though, and if anyone ever died doing what he or she loved the most, it was this virtuous woman. While the manner of her death is particularly heinous and ironic to us, I think that somehow Mrs. Wilson may not have felt the blows. I believe she was clinging to an unseen cross.

That's what we do when there are monsters among us.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jun/22/a-right-perspective-monsters-hit-a-world-away-to/

[MisGivings]

Even if the FBI continued their operation in Peru, Joran still killed Stephany ("The fact that I'm here, is my own fault")
and that's what the Peruvian judges should focus on.

It looks to me like he thinks he is in prison because the FBI set him up, not for the murder of Stephany.
Pretty soon, the Peruvian authorities will put a stop to the way Joran's lawyer is trying to distract from the fact that the evidence is overwhelming in Stephany's murder. It doesn't matter one bit HOW he ended up in Peru. Stephany's blood was all over this sorry excuse for a human being.
Too bad Joran doesn't realize that his side tracking is only making things worse for him. It will only prolong his trial and consequent stay.

[msmarple]

klaas - I get a hung-up hourglass, then "Internet Explorer cannot display ..." message, when I click the link to the CBS site with crime scene photos.

(But something tells me you're working on this ... :smiley: )

Well I can't do much for YOU and the CBS site but I can post the photos.  I think I'll post in another thread because they are pretty graphic.

Oh, I know that, but having the pictures somewhere here might be a good idea and thank you very much, that is what I was hoping. (And expected you were working on .... )

[klaasend]

klaas - I get a hung-up hourglass, then "Internet Explorer cannot display ..." message, when I click the link to the CBS site with crime scene photos.

(But something tells me you're working on this ... :smiley: )

Well I can't do much for YOU and the CBS site but I can post the photos.  I think I'll post in another thread because they are pretty graphic.

Oh, I know that, but having the pictures somewhere here might be a good idea and thank you very much, that is what I was hoping. (And expected you were working on .... )

Just posted them all in this thread:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8087.new#new

[seemeatthebeach]

Even if the FBI continued their operation in Peru, Joran still killed Stephany ("The fact that I'm here, is my own fault")
and that's what the Peruvian judges should focus on.

It looks to me like he thinks he is in prison because the FBI set him up, not for the murder of Stephany.
Pretty soon, the Peruvian authorities will put a stop to the way Joran's lawyer is trying to distract from the fact that the evidence is overwhelming in Stephany's murder. It doesn't matter one bit HOW he ended up in Peru. Stephany's blood was all over this sorry excuse for a human being.
Too bad Joran doesn't realize that his side tracking is only making things worse for him. It will only prolong his trial and consequent stay.

I for one hope he continues to stall because it adds more days and nights of fear.....
I want him to be afraid when he lays down on his bed at night that it might be his last night....and that the sh!thole rats will gnaw at his face if he does fall asleep.

[BUCKSHOT]

Putting aside emotion, and trying to make comments, in neutral perspective:

If you commit the crime, you must do the time. Plain and simple.

People can feel bad for poor Joran all they want. It does not change what has transpired.

In regards to NH, I am of the opinion that JVDS was not alone.
Likewise, those who denied justice on his behalf should also face the music and be punished.

With regards to JVDS needing psychological help, it is a shame he did not get it.
Too much talking and not enough action.

We are taught at an early age. Do something wrong, sit in time-out.
Joran is no exception. Hopefully, he will accept his role in both tragedies.

[MisGivings]

Good Morning Monkeys   I can't get this pic in this post so here is the link

 http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003848-5.html?tag=page

does anyone know what the brown bottle is?

Beer?

I don't know what the brown bottle is ...

But these seem to be actual crime scene photos, 21 of them, but I can't seem to advance through the different photos. Don't know if it's a problem with the site or with where I am ...

I was able to go through them and YES, they are actual photos even showing Stephanys body and bruises. 

OMG!!! I started to cry when I saw her body wrapped up in that sheet. It is very obvious that Joran viciously beat this poor girl to death. The bruises on her body are horrific.

[msmarple]

klaas - I get a hung-up hourglass, then "Internet Explorer cannot display ..." message, when I click the link to the CBS site with crime scene photos.

(But something tells me you're working on this ... :smiley: )

Well I can't do much for YOU and the CBS site but I can post the photos.  I think I'll post in another thread because they are pretty graphic.

Oh, I know that, but having the pictures somewhere here might be a good idea and thank you very much, that is what I was hoping. (And expected you were working on .... )

Just posted them all in this thread:

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=8087.new#new

Well ... certainly she still had her watch and ring.

So very, very sad.

The man leaves only destruction in his wake. I just hope he's stopped, for good.

[Anna]

I find it somewhat offensive and totally weird that anyone would claim the FBI to be in the wrong even IF (big if for I totally doubt it for practical reasons) they "lured" Joran to Peru.

He was guilty of extortion and caught completely on tape!  The FBI has every right to arrest and extradite the monster from anywhere on earth and had a duly authorized Interpol warrant.

Maybe it was Aruba who "set up" the FBI by pretending they would extradite him and instead tipping him off.

What goes around comes around and if the FBI was behind getting Joran in Peru, good on them.

Bad on Aruba for tipping him off and not keeping their part of the bargain.

And as far as Aruba only extraditing drug criminals--puh-leeze!  We know they extradited some of the Mansur family in the past.  And it wasn't for drugs.

It's just a shame that Joran is such a monster that on any given weekend he is evidently engaged in brutalizing and robbing women like that.

.

[Anna]

A bowl of water big enough to put Joran's big deformed head into would be more like a vat!

Who is he kidding with this?

[klaasend]

Excellent post at RU, IMO:

prolific2  PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:53 am         

If Elton Garcia was an FBI agent and was used to lure Joran to Peru in order to extradite him to the US for the extortion charge, once he arrived they could or would have just nabbed him....no plausible or logical reason to put on such an elaborate ruse involving people that could have spilled the beans or wait that long and give him a chance to get away again.

And there was nothing in Peru that could have helped the FBI further Natalee's case so it's not logical or plausible that that would be a reason not to nab him as soon as he arrived...

The only ruse I see is just a new campaign to get him out of Peruvian prison...plant a seed to shift focus...cast blame elsewhere enough to cause doubt..and Joran's word blaming it all someone else..

Elton Garcia/FBI = security guards = Deepak must have come back and must have raped her = the MB conspiracy = medjet = the host of all the other "they must have done it" ruses and conspiracies.. JMO

[Anna]

Relatives bring food to the prisoners.  I wonder if Joran has evern considered these women want to marry him in order to bring him poisoned food.

[Buckeye]

I don't believe the FBI business.  The State Department would have had to work it out with Peru.  I just don't think an extortion case would be worth all the effort.  We also have extradition treaties with the Netherlands (and most countries).

If I give an FBI sting a possibility, I would say they need to update their hidden camera equipment.  The box did not seem very covert to me.  Even if they were monitoring him....he goes to a casino, picks up a girl, and returns to his hotel room.  I don't think they would have swooped in for that "infringement".
How would they have anticipated his actions in the room?  If it was FBI, the room itself would have been bugged.  Now, that might be an interesting tape!

The Big Bad American FBI is always an easy out for foreigners looking for a repression tactic.

[littletxlady]

In the last thread or so, I asked if Lourdes Flores was related to Stephany's dad. It was said it was not his wife. In exploring for L. Flores on uTube I found a blurb about her and Peruvian Airlines in it. It was also showing pictures of a race car driver before and after her data. The driver looked like Stephany's dad.

There is a reason, of which I am sorry to say I cannot tell now that I need to know if they are relatives. Lourdes Flores ran for President. I am not sure if she won or not. Stephany's dad ran for vice pres and President.

Would one of our Monkey family summarize what is going on from the beginning of this clip to about the 8:00 mark especially any data, relationships between the race car driver, Lourdes and Peruvian Airlines? I read somewhere that Lourdes is on their board, but wondered why they are referencing a race car drive in the blurb and who he is, and what race he was in. TIA

IBE    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1PiX90eC38&feature=related

The first news reports of Stephany's murder said she was stabbed to death. In the one interview with her father, he puts his finger to his neck like a cutting motion, but says he cannot talk about it because of her mother. I am beginning to think Joran managed to cut Stephany's throat to disable her.

I don't know how to post the pics but here is the link
 http://www.daylife.com/photo/09oOcoE1PX3ZU

Stephany Flores's mother Marielena Ramirez cries at her funeral in Lima, June 3, 2010. Chilean police on Thursday detained Joran Van der Sloot, a Dutch man linked to the disappearance of a U.S. student in Aruba in 2005 and who is now the prime suspect in the murder of 21-year-old Stephany Flores in Peru. Flores was killed on May 30.

[Alabamaanna]

Excellent post at RU, IMO:

prolific2  PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:53 am         

If Elton Garcia was an FBI agent and was used to lure Joran to Peru in order to extradite him to the US for the extortion charge, once he arrived they could or would have just nabbed him....no plausible or logical reason to put on such an elaborate ruse involving people that could have spilled the beans or wait that long and give him a chance to get away again.

And there was nothing in Peru that could have helped the FBI further Natalee's case so it's not logical or plausible that that would be a reason not to nab him as soon as he arrived...

The only ruse I see is just a new campaign to get him out of Peruvian prison...plant a seed to shift focus...cast blame elsewhere enough to cause doubt..and Joran's word blaming it all someone else..

Elton Garcia/FBI = security guards = Deepak must have come back and must have raped her = the MB conspiracy = medjet = the host of all the other "they must have done it" ruses and conspiracies.. JMO

I don't really care if the director of the FBI bought Joran a plane ticket to Peru and personally delivered it to his house.  Joran killed Stephany in cold blood and no one is responsible for that except him.  No one held a gun to his head, told him to do it or helped him.  And again, if the director of the FBI personally erected the cameras that caught him red-handed the GOOD ON HIM.