Natalee Case Discussion #840 6/17/10 - 6/22/10

[canoworms]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

[klaasend]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

I agree.  He was getting treatment before Natalee.  IMO, he murdered Natalee and now he has murdered Stephany.  He should have been either institutionalized after Natalee or prosecuted and in jail.  Anita and Paulus did nothing but ENABLE Joran throughout his life.  Enabled and made excuses for his psychiatric problems and uncontrollable rage.

[San]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

Sunny I think Anita is communicating with Van der Straaten because he mentioned something like this for Joran a long time ago.  I would bet any amount of money that Karin Janssen is also helping in the Netherlands.

These two individuals were responsible for the coverup in Aruba.

Anita has plenty of help and money.

[Jo-An]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

Being a danger to yourself and society only applies to current events, not things that happened in the past. I don't think there was an acute reason for him to be admitted. That's an important requirement - the acuteness.
If he didn't want to be admitted and Anita and/or a doctor did, they would've had to have a court order.
And I don't think any court would've given that, because there was no acute reason.

[Ono]

Jo-Ann,
I think he met and exceeded those requirements but the Sloots saw his admission into a mental hospital as a liability after all the lies about how normal he "is".
Anita probably shot it down.
IMHO
S

I agree.  He was getting treatment before Natalee.  IMO, he murdered Natalee and now he has murdered Stephany.  He should have been either institutionalized after Natalee or prosecuted and in jail.  Anita and Paulus did nothing but ENABLE Joran throughout his life.  Enabled and made excuses for his psychiatric problems and uncontrollable rage.

Said well-and I agree.  Anita trying to put a halo around her head as well as ignoring plain old simple facts, is sickening. 

[Ono]

Does the Netherland have anything like our Hippa Law?  I wonder if indeed arrangements had been made for the monster to go into a treatment program?  OR....is anita lying about this and trying to lay more ground work for an insanity plea? 

Please don't stone me....but at times, while reading this, I almost felt sorry for her.....but it was only momentarily.

BUMP...

Sunny I think Anita is communicating with Van der Straaten because he mentioned something like this for Joran a long time ago.  I would bet any amount of money that Karin Janssen is also helping in the Netherlands.

These two individuals were responsible for the coverup in Aruba.

Anita has plenty of help and money.

Oh-good point!

[canoworms]

Thanks Klass,
you have no idea how much I respect your opinion...truly.
And to all of you other wonderful monkeys, keep me thinkin, I love the brain juice!
and to the dearly departed, we discuss your cases keeping in mind you are beautiful souls and mean no disrespect in combing over the very horrific details surrounding your departure.
I leave to light candles in my home, again, for the sweet ladies who brought us here.
Love, Selena

[Anna]

Anita says Joran told her he was being followed and he was robbed and two men showed him pictures of Natalee.

I don't believe this happened, but was he being haunted by Natalee's death? He knew the stress of Natalee's murder lead to his father's death. Was he paranoid something was going to happen to him next?

I think he was paranoid but only because he made a lot of enemies.  No one was helping Joran.  He needed money and he was emailing at least two people the night before Stephany was killed asking for money for tickets home.

And that's why he decided to rob her.  Premeditated robbery.  Maybe he already borrowed some money from her and pretended he was going to pay her back if she would come to his room. 

Remember he talked about getting a suitcase and removing her body.  But he didn't get enough money from robbing her to buy a ticket AND pay his hotel bill and they would see him leaving with a large suitcase and demand payment.  He was hoping she had more money on her than she actually did when he killed her.

JMO and theory.

[Ono]

Jo-An & Buckeye ... thank you!

[Anna]

Van der straaten offering Joran admitance into a mental hospital has always confirmed his guilt in killing Natalee to me.  I mean, why would Uncle Jan think Joran was so crazy if he hadn't done something pretty drastic.

[blah]

Has this been discussed yet?

It was said that Stephany broke her neck. And that the tennis racket was used as a weapon.

Is Joran left or right handed? And where was Stephany hit in her neck: at her right side or at her left side?
In other words: did he attack her from behind or while he was facing her?
I have the feeling that he wanted to rob her and premeditated her killing. And that because of that attacked her from behind - maybe while she was playing poker or looking in his laptop.

Anybody can answer that?

I dont think they did the recreation yet and I doubt they will release the info that would let us figure this out until afterwards.

[Anna]

If it is true that Paulus' family looked down on Anita and thought he married beneath himself because of her past, perhaps that played into her extreme denial.  She needed to convince herself she was such an excellent mother.  Remember they didn't get married until Joran was already 2 yo and Val was weell on the way.

Maybe admitting Joran was totally defective was to Anita also admitting that she was also unworthy.  There was just too much bragging about Joran and how smart he was in the beginning.  He's about dull/normal at best but to hear his supporters, Joran was some kind of genius.  Well, maybe he is by Aruban standards but by the rest of the world he just isn't.

Anita didn't want to prove the Sloot clan had been right about her all along.

Just a thought.

[Ono]

The massive coverup, the throwing of two innocent security guards to the wolves, and the persecution of Natalee's family, etc. etc, really cannot be justified by this latest "Joran has contracted mental illness" spin, imo.   That's nuts.

[Ono]

If it is true that Paulus' family looked down on Anita and thought he married beneath himself because of her past, perhaps that played into her extreme denial.  She needed to convince herself she was such an excellent mother.  Remember they didn't get married until Joran was already 2 yo and Val was weell on the way.

Maybe admitting Joran was totally defective was to Anita also admitting that she was also unworthy.  There was just too much bragging about Joran and how smart he was in the beginning.  He's about dull/normal at best but to hear his supporters, Joran was some kind of genius.  Well, maybe he is by Aruban standards but by the rest of the world he just isn't.

Anita didn't want to prove the Sloot clan had been right about her all along.

Just a thought.

Makes sense to me.

[San]

The massive coverup, the throwing of two innocent security guards to the wolves, and the persecution of Natalee's family, etc. etc, really cannot be justified by this latest "Joran has contracted mental illness" spin, imo.   That's nuts.

It is nuts Ono but they are working every angle.

They don't care what we believe.  They are going to throw out anything that sticks to the wall.

[San]

If it is true that Paulus' family looked down on Anita and thought he married beneath himself because of her past, perhaps that played into her extreme denial.  She needed to convince herself she was such an excellent mother.  Remember they didn't get married until Joran was already 2 yo and Val was weell on the way.

Maybe admitting Joran was totally defective was to Anita also admitting that she was also unworthy.  There was just too much bragging about Joran and how smart he was in the beginning.  He's about dull/normal at best but to hear his supporters, Joran was some kind of genius.  Well, maybe he is by Aruban standards but by the rest of the world he just isn't.

Anita didn't want to prove the Sloot clan had been right about her all along.

Just a thought.

Out of three children she has raised it seems that there is only one with a promising future.

[Nut44x4]

He broke her neck with his bare hands...it was reported that no tennis racquet or baseball bat was used in the killing. As many bruises as she had, I wouldn't be surprised if he even stomped on her.

[can]

The massive coverup, the throwing of two innocent security guards to the wolves, and the persecution of Natalee's family, etc. etc, really cannot be justified by this latest "Joran has contracted mental illness" spin, imo.   That's nuts.

It is nuts Ono but they are working every angle.

They don't care what we believe.  They are going to throw out anything that sticks to the wall.

...just as they have always done.

[klaasend]

Posted at RU:

fierljepper  Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:35 am         

In the Holloway case there wasn´t any legal ground to convict Joran or hold him in prison any longer for interrogation. He therefore remained Innocent since there simply was no Evidence that could Prove him Guilty.

However I am more and more skewed towards seeing Joran as a cold blooded murderer in the Holloways case as well. He is true wolf in sheep's clothes. A very nice and friendly sheep, with a very ugly and evil wolf hidden inside. Just consider all the `wolvy` things he has done after the Holloway case:

* Telling many different stories to ALE about what happened. Obvious lies in all of them.
* Falsely incriminating the Kalpoes who had been loyal friends and they backed him in the HI lie (and he ruined their lives as a reward)
* Falsely incriminating his own father (phone in prison story) and the recorded and clearly false audio tape bought by Greta.
* Manipulating Greta so well with his charms that even she lost all her "journalistic" criticism and started to believe him for a moment.
* Going on national TV in the US (a Lion's den for him) and giving the interview to ABC telling about his innocence.
* Almost being caught for women trafficking in Thailand.
* Exortion of the Holloway family for money (via JQK)
* Throwing wine in DeVries' face on Dutch National TV.
* Trying to manipulate the lie detector in the Terror Jaap show. And getting very angry when he was caught.
* Selling a bullshit story for money to Terror Jaap.

This guy was already playing poker at a very young age and cheated (his own words) on all the girlfriends he had. And he got away with all of that. His girlfriends are even not negative today and tell on TV that he was such a nice and warm person.

Joran has learned to mitigate any adverse effects of all his anger explosions, by getting better and better in his lies. Until he hit the wall big time in Peru. But look how he behaves now. He seems like a very nice polite guy. One to almost feel sorry for. But if you peel the skins of this nicely looking gentleman onion you could also see:

* he consciously tried to cover up a murder (but got caught on camera)
* he blames HER for starting to hit him first. He makes it sound like self defense.
* he doesn´t show a single bit of respect for Stephany on the videos.
* he did consider disposing of her body (but he couldn't see a feasible way)
* he didn't just turn himself in immediately after it happened.
* he tried to flee out of the country.
* he did steal her money
* he immediately incriminates others (like the Taxi drivers that transported him)
* he didn't cry or show emotions or regret for a single moment. Not even a single tear (but maybe he kept this for the prison).
* he immediately makes new friends in prison and starts playing poker with them.
* it all happens at exactly the same day and time as 5 years ago.

I therefore was very pleased to read in the Telegraaf this morning that Anita has decided to pull her hands of him. She doesn't even want to personally meet him in Peru prison anymore. And that´s a big step for a mother who has probably been closer to him than anybody else.

´(...)I can't cry for Joran as I did for Paul, or as I want to. I can't get to the grieving part (...)`

[OneHappyChica]

Anita says Joran told her he was being followed and he was robbed and two men showed him pictures of Natalee.

I don't believe this happened, but was he being haunted by Natalee's death? He knew the stress of Natalee's murder lead to his father's death. Was he paranoid something was going to happen to him next?

I think he was paranoid but only because he made a lot of enemies.  No one was helping Joran.  He needed money and he was emailing at least two people the night before Stephany was killed asking for money for tickets home.

And that's why he decided to rob her.  Premeditated robbery.  Maybe he already borrowed some money from her and pretended he was going to pay her back if she would come to his room. 

Remember he talked about getting a suitcase and removing her body.  But he didn't get enough money from robbing her to buy a ticket AND pay his hotel bill and they would see him leaving with a large suitcase and demand payment.  He was hoping she had more money on her than she actually did when he killed her.

JMO and theory.

Rather than being haunted or stressed (related to HIS actions), I think playing the Natalee card was part of Joran's sick and twisted mother manipulation game (oh mommy, I did no wrong and these people continue to torment me). Plus, Natalee was at the forefront of his thinking. He was desperate for cash (sadly, Natalee has come to represent earnings in his world) even though he recently extorted $25k from Beth. Joran likes to throw others into the mix and he keeps it in pairs (two robbers, two security guards). Joran tried to plant seeds for an alibi. Thankfully, surveillance is a wonderful modern day tool that destroyed his original plot!

Anna, your theory is strong. Casino surveillance footage will demonstrate if there was a tableside loan made to Joran by Stephany. Table actions are keenly monitored as theft (especially employee-related theft) poses the biggest financial threat to casinos. Robbery may have been Joran's sole intention. However, due to his track record, I wouldn't be surprised if sexual intentions were present as well (either primary or secondary). His hotel costs weren't excessive. I tend to believe he neglected to pay his bill not because of financial constraints...rather, he was attempting to buy time in an effort to secure himself in a safe zone.